Men's Free Program; Oct. 23 11:00 pm EST/9:00 pm where I am

Blades of Passion said:

...but why is there a tempo change that early in the program? It isn't even a tempo change that leads anywhere because we are back to a slow section 30 seconds later...and then back to another faster section a moment later...and then back to another slow section after a footwork sequence.
:disapp:

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I'm just curious. Since you have such critical eyes, I ask, what did you think of Amodio's LP? Not exactly like Takahashi's slower or faster moments, but it seems to me he has many standing-position moments in his program. He IS stepping but not skating is what I thought and this is the reason why I have problems with Morozov's choreos of recent (like Ando's last year's LP).

I couldn't stay up to watch the whole thing, but I'm glad Jeremy got the silver. He has a good chance of making the final now.

After watching the mens sps this AM, I was expecting to be disappointed in their lps as well, however that was NOT the case at all.

Once again I fastforwarded or skipped through the lesser names so I could get to the top dogs, and here are my thoughts:

Amodio was an absolute delight! *clapping* The program got better & better until it finally ended on an explosion, as I looooved the last MJ song he skated to. He was totally in character, nailed it to a T, and deserved high marks, as well as a medal. Brian Joubert better watch out, that's all I have to say.

Daisuke's program was a bit of a disappointment, I didn't really like it, in fact I honestly can't remember it. The only thing I recall was the superb quad! *clapping*, but the fall & the bobbles here & there really disrupted the rest of the program (the Our Gang Alfalfa hair didn't help) and affected my enjoyment. I was honestly shocked he got such a high score, but then in retrospect I recalled he's the current World Champion & Olympic Bronze Medalist, and I know reputation counts, as it should. After all, that's part of being a great champion, being able to bring it when it counts, consistency/mental game being at least 50% of what makes a great champion ala Michelle Kwan & Evgeni Plushenko.

Jeremy totally shocked & surprised me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In a good way, mind you, an extremely gooooood way! Honestly, I was about to give up on him after last year's fiasco at the Olympics. And haven't watched any of his programs since then I totally forgot what made me a fan of him in the first place ~ my God, the purity of his skating, his long lines, the stretch he gets in his legs & arms, the way he strokes the ice almost makes me cry, his textbook perfect jumps, a truly classic skater in every sense of the word, and last but not least his soul/innermost being shines through in this program. No gimmicks, just pure classic skating. In fact imho this is another masterpiece in the same vein as "A Day in the Life". The only thing that bugs me a teeny weeny bit about Jeremy is the way his shoulders bunch up around his neck reminiscent of Timothy Goebel, and this is at times accented when he wears vests, but that complaint is so insignificant that it doesn't affect the whole for me. That said, the program was skated clean & perfect except for the singled axel, yet that too was so insignificant that I would have nevertheless placed him first in the FS.


Overall I agree with the placements, but I do not agree with the scores, Jeremy's score should have been closer to Daisuke's imho, but then again Jeremy has to earn the judges respect by skating cleanly on a consistent basis and start winning medals at Worlds, instead of always ending up off the podium.

I thought Jeremy was better than Daisuke, even without a quad and popping the axel. I don't like that they raised the base value of the quad - it's not all that.

Nadine said:

Jeremy totally shocked & surprised me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In a good way, mind you, an extremely gooooood way! Honestly, I was about to give up on him after last year's fiasco at the Olympics. And haven't watched any of his programs since then I totally forgot what made me a fan of him in the first place ~ my God, the purity of his skating, his long lines, the stretch he gets in his legs & arms, the way he strokes the ice almost makes me cry, his textbook perfect jumps, a truly classic skater in every sense of the word, and last but not least his soul/innermost being shines through in this program. No gimmicks, just pure classic skating. In fact imho this is another masterpiece in the same vein as "A Day in the Life". The only thing that bugs me a teeny weeny bit about Jeremy is the way his shoulders bunch up around his neck reminiscent of Timothy Goebel, and this is at times accented when he wears vests, but that complaint is so insignificant that it doesn't affect the whole for me. That said, the program was skated clean & perfect except for the singled axel, yet that too was so insignificant that I would have nevertheless placed him first in the FS.

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Jeremy said that he really loves skating to this program and it does show. I agree that his personality really shines through in this program. I find the whimsical, and the almost child-like innocence about his interpretation very real and moving.
A brilliant collaboration between Jeremy and David Wilson!

I managed to watch men FS on the train but I havent watched their sp and neither Ladies Lp and I m trying hard not to find out what happened to ladies until I see it, so dont spoil it for me pleaaaseeee!
Abott was like I rediscovered him, it is my fav program, now can he stop popping jumps? The program was fantastic, I didnt want it to end, I think he should start selling it more, it is perfect!
Hanyu!! I missed Kozuka but he made up for that, his jumps huge, great edges, a bielman and donut, and he is so light while skating, I m in love (how old is he now, he grew up a lot since Worlds)
Amodio ' program has a zillion cuts to music but he is a showman and he looked like not competing but doing an exhibition, I dont like this program as a program at all but I liked him so fair enough
D Ten I felt sorry for him, maybe with Caroll he will learn to be consistent
I think Sawyer's program was the second best for me although the skater leaves me cold, the program was great
Dai is a rockstar, still this is not La Strada, and the music is used a lot, tangos are the carmens of this season? But his quad looks secure now!!!
And I dont know what people think but I liked Schultheiss techno R&J program, a complete different skater than last year..

I don't think Carroll did Ten any favors by backloading all his jumps. Can a skater go from frontloaded to backloaded like that? At the olympics he was 6-2 and now he is 3-5. That's not practical.

seniorita said:

Hanyu!! I missed Kozuka but he made up for that, his jumps huge, great edges, a bielman and donut, and he is so light while skating, I m in love (how old is he now, he grew up a lot since Worlds)

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Hanyu is 15 years old but he looks like he got way taller since jr worlds doesn't he?

#1Kerryfan said:

I thought Jeremy was better than Daisuke, even without a quad and popping the axel. I don't like that they raised the base value of the quad - it's not all that.

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I know one elite skater who has been trying to land quad more than four years now and he still can not get it consistent. He can do up to triple axels without any difficulties, but quad is a totally different story. It seems to be possible to land here and there in practice,but to be able to do it in the program in the competition is something really different. The quad , the base value of quad -it is definitely all that.
To me, Jeremy' s program is always the same. He always use this rather slow and pretty music. When I had to choose my skating music, my coach always used to say it is much easier to choose beautiful and slow music for skaters to show how artistic and elegant skater. (Do not get me wrong. Jeremmy is an artistic and elegant skater,though)Even not-so-musical skater can fool some judges and audiences by using that kind of music. But the fast music like Dai used, especially music with so many different tempo is extremely difficult to deal with. Dai uses all of his body to express his emotion. As I watched Jeremy and Dai' program so many times, I found Dai's programs are much much harder. Without jumps, which program is more difficult? Definitely,Dai's is .
I watched Jeremy's program from four years ago and it seems all of them are same type of music and I wish he changes his style a little bit because he is such a superb skater. I still feel that Dai does not own that music yet but I felt the same way about the La Strada last year in the beginning. I know time will solve the problem.

Abbott was special. I love all his programs and knew i would love this one. So much better than the SP.

Nice quad from Dai and i loved the footwork, but since we saw the hot tango from him last year as his SP i cant help but wish he had gone a different route. Especially since 3/4 of the skaters in every discipline are using a tango this year.

morozov ruined Amodio for me. I hate the MJ program and although his jumps are higher and more dramatic now, they are so at the expense of the intricate choreography of last season.

Ross miller has some very nice jumps and i loved the old school spread eagles in tbe Casasblanca number.

Nomdesk8 said:

... it looked to me like the single axel in the last half of Jeremy's program was supposed to be a triple axel. Missing that axel probably cost him a lot of points.

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I believe so too.

However, 8 triples in the program including 3a-3t, 3r-2t-2loop, 3L-2t, plus a 2a. Only popped one 3a. The rest of the jumps were all perfect. It was an amazing first competition! He made the jumps look so easy. Jeremy is truly a complete skater! It looks to me that he was at ease from the beginning. He seemed to be more confident and didn't have that usual nervousness before starting his skating.

Canastatango said:

As I watched Jeremy and Dai' program so many times, I found Dai's programs are much much harder. Without jumps, which program is more difficult? Definitely,Dai's is .

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That's quite laughable. Takahashi had the quad, yes. But otherwise how was it "much much harder" Dai's program didn't even come close to Jeremy's in terms of transitions. In fact, his LPs always tend to be pretty transitionless.

I watched Jeremy's program from four years ago and it seems all of them are same type of music and I wish he changes his style a little bit because he is such a superb skater.

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Huh? For you to say that about Abbott's music choices, either there exist only two types of music in your world: "slow and pretty" and "fast and strong", or you don't know what you are talking about. :sheesh:
Say what you will about Abbott's skating, but I fail to see how anyone can deny the fact that Jeremy's had some of the most diverse music choices of any skater throughout his career.

I always think Jeremy's programs can't be topped, but every season he brings even better programs. I really love this skater. Too bad for the 3A pop. Dai had charisma and bravura, as always. Not crazy for his programs, though. His Olympic season ones were just too good. Florent's LP... well, I don't know. His program doesn't do much for me, but I just love his improved jumps! Congrats to the medalists!

That's quite laughable. Takahashi had the quad, yes. But otherwise how was it "much much harder" Dai's program didn't even come close to Jeremy's in terms of transitions. In fact, his LPs always tend to be pretty transitionless.

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So much for transitions... I loved Jeremy's but from the first second Dai 's program screamed I m the winner from miles. Huge quad, great jumps, fast skating, choreo and killing personality, I think he has no match now if he is clean.

Jeremy;s was beautiful, it was like telling a story you dont want to end. But Dai's is like a thunder hits you out of nowhere.

seniorita said:

So much for transitions... I loved Jeremy's but from the first second Dai 's program screamed I m the winner from miles. Huge quad, great jumps, fast skating, choreo and killing personality, I think he has no match now if he is clean.

Jeremy;s was beautiful, it was like telling a story you dont want to end. But Dai's is like a thunder hits you out of nowhere.

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You mean too many transitions in Jeremy's program? I know some GS posters criticize meaningless, not music related, too many transitions in general. Many say that it is Jeremy and Patrick who do the most transitions. Think this kind of arguement is reasonable.

I have never felt that transitions or choreo are overdone in Jeremy's programs though. To be honest, however, I sometimes hoped he would omit some of transitions because it is just so hard to do all the jumps with those. If his goal were just to clean the program he would get rid of those movements. Sadly to say, as a Jeremy fan, I have resented seeing his PCS did not get higher even though he always tried all the intricate choreo.

Popped 3A this time also seems to be caused by other elements he had to do before the jump. Well, he is not the most consistent jumper in the world but look at other skaters who simplify choreo to prepare for successful jumps. Now I admire his 'consistent' endeaver to connect all the elements in the program. Jumps are just part of them and in the flow of the music.

I want to thank Jeremy and David Wilson for bringing such beautiful program like Life is Beautiful to the world. Moving and captivating.

seniorita said:

So much for transitions... I loved Jeremy's but from the first second Dai 's program screamed I m the winner from miles. Huge quad, great jumps, fast skating, choreo and killing personality, I think he has no match now if he is clean.

Jeremy;s was beautiful, it was like telling a story you dont want to end. But Dai's is like a thunder hits you out of nowhere.

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The poster I was replying to claimed that Daisuke's program was "much much harder". I was merely pointing out the fact that Jeremy's program had more transitions throughout which made it really difficult. I didn't really comment on who I thought was better or should have won.

I do think ABott 's was harder in terms of choreo and transitions and has a character from beginning to end but once again if this harder programs makes you pop lets say...your axel, then drop some transitions , do all jumps and sell the program like Taka did, thats all I meant. If it was the first time Abott popped something I wouldnt comment on it, if it is to skate this wonderful program clean only at Nationals then I prefer him to drop this kind of difficulty. Actually it is his sp which looks so busy , the Lp is as I said beautiful.

I recently came across a tweet by an ex-competitive skater, saying that watching a performance without sound turned on sometimes helps understand how PCS were given. I understand this is a kind of test to see how much a performance reminds one of particular music it is skated to, and also I found it is easier to see how choreography develops and changes throughout the programme. It was interesting and I do recommend it!

Anyway, I have tried this and thus a post-justification of PCS difference between Jeremy's and Daisuke's lps - purely to see if I can find any differences, which relates to the PCS criteria stated in the rule book.

The first thing I noticed was that Dai's performance seemed to have more / clear changes in speed he skates - it is more obvious and thus reflecting constant changes in tempo of the music he uses. On the other hand, Jeremy's speed is more consistent, reflecting the music he uses in a sense. However, I can see that constant and obvious changes in speed (acceleration and sudden stops included) can showcase one's skating skills more. (Not that one skater is better than the other - just one programmes showcases better, I mean)

The second thing I notices was that I could not see any differences in the number of turns and steps included in-between elements between two programmes - not that I counted the exact number though, and as non-skater myself, I could not tell whether any particular combination / succession of turns is more difficult to execute or less than another. The difference I noticed was that, at times, Dai's step and turn sequences seemed to be more dense - I mean more were executed more quickly. Not throughout, but changes in density (is that a correct use of term?) was more obvious - perhaps time and again, relates to constant changes in tempo and mood of the music.

Anyway, it was incredible that both skaters hardly ever just did crossovers, except entrance to some harder jumps - even 3lz was in both cases preceded by a intricate sequences of steps and turns - amazing!

Lastly, I noticed that Dai's performance was perhaps more expressive without music - I got that he was skating to something very passionate and anguished, perhaps? - his expressions, power, energy and speed, movements, everything told the essence of the music. On the other hand, Jeremy could have skated to something heavy or light, dramatic or simple, sad or fun - not all of them in one go, of course! I think this also means Jeremy's choice of music is much harder one to express without the help of music itself - more subtle and thus it requires greater skills as a performer.

Considering these, I've come to an conclusion that the differences in PCS their performances received could be post-rationalised for me. Please note though, I was trying to read a rationale behind the scoring and not telling my own impressions first time I saw their performances - not my original verdict.

I think perhaps the difference is how programmes were put together - Dai's programme seems to be designed to max PCS by showcasing his strength as a skater (his quickness, power, speed) and a performer (dramatic expressions, ability to pick out every single note of the music). Jeremy is an equally skilled, and wonderfully musical skater in a different, in his own way - perhaps more subtly nuanced than Dai, but his programme needs to find a way to allow judges to translate his quality into scores. I am not saying one is more artistically superior than the other - but in the world of FS as a sport, they need a programme which can be judged according to the set of rules / criteria.

Anyway, it is just a very beginning of the season and I am sure both skaters will deepen their understanding of the music and the programme, and sharpen their interpretation and performance throughout the season. I am very excited to follow them through till the Worlds - and hope these two of my favourites will fight for the highest spot on the podium in Tokyo next year!

BTW, I wonder if anybody else wants to have a go at this exercise and share their thoughts?

akoko said:

I'm just curious. Since you have such critical eyes, I ask, what did you think of Amodio's LP? Not exactly like Takahashi's slower or faster moments, but it seems to me he has many standing-position moments in his program. He IS stepping but not skating is what I thought.

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I kind of LOVE Amodio's program. His music and movements were the most interesting to me. I found the program to be a very modern take on the emotions someone experiences during and after a difficult breakup.

We begin with haunting thunder sounds. This is the pain felt in the moment a relationship ends. A soft piano takes over the melody as the sound of a barren, wind-swept wasteland bridges these two sections of music. We are now experiencing the regret that is felt as you struggle to come to terms with what is happening. How can I apologize, how can I hang on to this?

Then we move into pure anger (look at Florent's facial expression!). Screw them for doing this to me! After a step sequence we hit a musical transition that I find to be amazing. The moment Florent lands a Flying Sit Spin, the music moves into any almost video-game like quality. It's such an unexpected moment. Within the framework of the story being told, this is the person no longer being so angry and realizing they need to look towards the future.

The next musical transition represents our character, now past the initial sadness and anger of the breakup, trying to improve himself and put himself back out there in the World to date around and show his previous partner what a fool they were by leaving him. He is driven and outgoing and making it a point to display what an awesome individual he is. He is going out to bars and showing himself up, especially if he happens to bump into the ex.

The final part of the program represents the character now feeling secure and confident and "over" the relationship. He just wants to have fun and enjoy life!

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Is the program perfect? No. Does the program have too much stationary movement? Yes. Some amount of "stepping" is fine but the program does use it a bit too much. The sequence of choreography near the halfway point of the program stays on the center of the ice too long - after those first series of kicks Amodio should be skating as he does the rest of the movements. I also think the crotch-grab is misplaced during this part of the program (but NOT during the later part of the program, it's appropriate there!). I also feel the end of his circular footwork sequence should not stop for a "pose" as it currently does (he already does that earlier in the sequence). The pose itself is really good, it should just be incorporated while moving!

The other problems with the program are the standard CoP issues that plague the current rules - some useless spin positions, too many jumps back-to-back-to-back directly after the halfway point of the program. Ideally the opening parts of the music would be extended out a bit more - the program spends more time on the later concepts I talked about since it is worthwhile under the current CoP rules (in terms of technical points) to cram all of your jumps in like that right after the half-way point.

You know what, though? Amodio sells his movements BRILLIANTLY. The amount of "stepping" in his program may not be ideal but how many other skaters can move their bodies like that? An extremely small amount. For me his LP was the most successful out of any we saw at NHK. Give Takahashi and Abbott the higher marks for Skating Skills and Transitions and even Choreography (since their choreography can be considered more difficult and complex, despite not working with the music) but Amodio was the best in terms of PERFORMANCE and INTERPRETATION.

Oh, Blades..your dissection of Amodio's program is a credit to your imagination ( and prose). But I fear Morozov is not similarly gifted.

Amodio has storm sounds to open, leading into a slow section..(Ando has roughly the same thing at the beginning of one of her programs, except I think she has a downpour instead of thunder ) .. Then Amodio has a hip-hop dance challenge thing in which he's both challengers .. with a pause in between ..the first one scowls and tries to scare the other off.... At last we have Michael Jackson because , hey! it's a good excuse for crotch grabs and pelvic thrusts.. The whole program gives an opportunity to impress with how well Amodio can dance on the spot , but sorry, I thought this was a skating competition. Amodio can move his body well ,but there are many ways this ability could be used while actually skating. ( As Lambiel does..as Dai does ) Why use it this way ? I think we can draw a few conclusions.

Miki also uses very modern music ( and if ske keeps to the theme from the summer, a hip-hop-style costume) and also has many breaks where she stands still and poses. As far as I can remember,she has no crotch grabs, etc ., but I believe there's some body-stroking substituted instead.( More feminine , I suppose.) :disapp:

These are some of the gimmicks Morozov is going with this year. At SC this week, we get to see Fernandez' truly vulgar use of the same opening music as Dai's SP. If Amodio's grabs weren't toned down, or saved for the exhibition, I doubt Javier's will be either.

Dancing in place and broad hamming it up really isn't musical interpretation..It may be OK for a show , but overused and misplaced for competition.

These are all very talented skaters, and it really makes me feel a bit sick to see them being exploited this way...and makes me mourn what might have been..the wonderful things that we may have seen from them if they had a coach with more in the way of talent ,taste or scruples.

I came here wanting to say how much I liked both Jeremy's and Dai's LP's, but I guess I'll save that for tomorrow.