Linda Fratianne Update

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

To me, the saddest part is that, from all reports, Linda Fratianni allowed the controversy over the 1980 gold medal to rankle in her heart for decades, poisoning her spirit. I hope that's wrong, but both she and Frank Carroll have given that impression.

Of course it is a bitter blow when you think that you have won the game on the playing field, only to have it taken away by the referree. But holding a grudge only hurts you, not the person that you have a beef with. Never mind Sonja Henie and Ulrich Salchow, fixed judging has been part and parcel of the Olympic Games ever since the Emperor Nero won the gold medal for singing, despite having to place armed guards all around the stadium to prevent the audience from attempting to escape the horrible racket by climbing the fences.

Look at all the times that an Olympic boxer has just beaten his opponent to a pulp, only to have the judge (perhaps from an unfriendly country) give the prize to the other guy. That's the nature of judged sports; that's the nature of an international competition in which each country strives to outdo the others in medal counts and displays of patriotic furvor.

All top skaters have lost competitions that they thought they should have won, and, if they are honest, have won competitions that maybe they should have lost. As David Pelletier said, in the midst of the 2002 pairs controversy:

"If I didn’t want this to happen to me, I would have gone downhill on skis."

Mathman

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

Lois - I was questioning you because all I saw at the 80 Olys was the LP, and for reasons of my job, I was lucky to get that.

I'm not convinced on the Carroll conspiracy nor will I give up on the mistaken Hamilton remark. But as I said it's over. Amen.

But as Mathman said, judged sports will have fixes and they have had fixes for centuries.

Joe

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

I recall reading Elizabeth Manley's autobiography, "Thumbs Up!"
in which she described the scoring of the school figures at the 1988 World Figure Skating Championships. Liz stated that Katarina Witt, who had just won her second Olympic gold medal, had completely missed the loop of her final figure and that she, Witt, had "completely blown that figure". To Liz's surprise and dismay, the judges awarded Witt first place in the school figures - the first time Witt had ever won the figures at Worlds. Liz said, "Guess it shows that you can't easily defeat a defending champion."

I do not recall reading the "Sports Illustrated" coverage of the 1980 Winter Olympics, but I certainly do recall that there was a lot of angst in the US over Fratianne's second-place finish.
I was attending a performance of Ice Capades in Philadelphia the day after the women's long program - the day the US hockey team played for the gold medal - and we were shaking our heads and commiserating over Linda's loss. When we walked into the arena, a huge television screen broadcast the US hockey team celebrating, as they had just won the Olympic gold medal. Everybody stood up and cheered.

I also recall Annet Poetszch's "cowboy" exhibition number that she skated to in the 1978 season, when she won the first of her two World titles. I thought it was a cute number; however Dick Button made a little crack about how curious it was to see an East German skate to cowboy music. Well, why not?

Annet gave a very nice television interview just prior to the 1980 Olympics. She had won the European title, and part of her long program was shown. The commentator remarked,
"Annet, you showed a lot more artistry in this program than I've seen from you in previous seasons." Annet thanked the commentator and said she had worked very hard to develop and improve her artistry and that she wanted her skating to be appealing to the American audience she would be skating before in Lake Placid. She was down-to-earth, intelligent, and seemed like a very nice young woman.

After the Olympics, Annet spoke of the pressures on her going into the long program, as East Germany's final chance for a gold medal. Jan Hoffman had won the silver behind Robin Cousins, but the GDR wanted a gold medal in figure skating.
Her coach, Mrs. Mueller, told her at the boards, just before she took to the ice for her long program -- "You must be strong. You must land all of your jumps. You must win."
No pressure, right?!!

While I appreciated Linda Fratianne's talent, however robotic it was, I also recall reading an article Frank Carroll wrote assessing his opinion of Linda's chances in Lake Placid. He wrote, in essence, that Linda was at a crossroads - she would either develop some artistry to go along with her jumping ability, or she would remain essentially a technical skater with limited artistic skills. It was pretty blunt, actually.
He wrote that he loved her dearly, and he thought the artistry would come, but it never really did.

As I wrote previously, in my opinion, the women won the right medals in Lake Placid. Had Linda Fratianne skated a fantastic long program, it might have been a different story. She skated competently, but not brilliantly, and that probably cost her the gold medal -- biased judging or no biased judging.

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

First of all, I have to correct a mistake that I made in my last post about how clearly false the Carroll/Fratianne conspiracy theory involving a men-for-ladies trade was. It's been a while since this annoying subject last reared its ugly head, and I posted without checking, but the evidence against Carroll's claims about the singles judges is even stronger, because there were four countries with judges on both mens and ladies panels, not two, and in ALL FOUR cases the way the judges voted does not match Carroll's conspiracy theory. Both East and West Germany voted for the German skaters, Jan Hoffman and Anett, the Japanese judge went for Robin and Linda, and the US judge went for Jan and Linda (and displayed the most blatant national bias in the men's event by being the only one of the nine judges to place Robin 3rd, behind Charlie Tickner, who was a good skater but blew both the short and long in Lake Placid--the US judge just happened to be a personal friend of Charlie's, too, according to an article).

Anyway, of the 4 possible ways those 4 judge pairs could have voted, random chance would have predicted that one would have done what Carroll's conspiracy theory claimed (Robin and Anett), yet in actual fact *not a single one* of the judge pairs did that, which is not the only reason that conspiracy theory of Carroll's is pure garbage, but I'll leave the subject there. It's been done to death before--newsgroup google "debunking Frank Carroll" if you're interested.

What's sad for me, though, is that Carroll has been getting away with fooling people with blatant lies like the men-ladies one for years, and as a result Joe ends up being inclined to believe something that is definitely untrue (men/ladies conspiracy) because he didn't like Anett's win and doesn't know enough about the Olympic judging details to see through Carroll's men-ladies lies. It's a very nasty, slanderous tactic on Carroll's part. I don't know what he and Linda used to be like pre-'80, but, as Mathman astutely describes it, their bitterness and hatred for nearly a quarter of a century now has really poisoned their spirits. I do think that if Linda had been told after the Olympics that it was close, but that's subjective sport and you have to get over it and move on, she would have been far happier and would have been able to handle her loss in a dignified way that earns public respect, as Brian Orser did in Calgary and Kwan did in Nagano, and Lisa-Marie Allen, who was robbed of one or two US titles by pro-Linda judging bias, has done.

Instead, Linda's family and coach drilled into her for decades that she'd been robbed, so she whines and accuses and sometimes lies whenever she's interviewed. It's tragic both for them and for the damage they do to the reputation of others--and to the reputation of skating, for that matter, since at least some of their claims are bogus, and the public already has a negative enough view of skating politics from the genuine scandals.

Joe, I'm glad to hear that you aren't a big Linda fan either, you're just one of the anti-Anett group. It's funny, because in all the times that this horrid subject has popped up online, there are always a number of people who say that they didn't think Linda deserved the gold and the results were correct, and usually at least one who disagrees strongly with that, but when you ask them to elaborate, in every case that I can recall it turned out that they felt so strongly *not* because they had loved Linda's skating and thought she was as superb as she and Carroll claim she was, but because they had really hated seeing Anett's performances win gold. There usually ends up being a consensus that the ladies in 1980 were a mediocre group, Denise excepted, and the differences in opinion lie in whether the fans think Linda or Anett skated worse, not who they think was a wonderful, deserving Olympic champion. Basically, I'd say that 1980 was a "default gold" year for the women, and wouldn't have been an "unforgettable stunning triumph" year even if the results had been reversed.

Joe, I'd definitely have remembered the sort of remarks that you attribute to Hamilton if I'd read or heard them. I've never seen him say anything about Robin not deserving Olympic gold, and would be amazed if he did say that, based on his other comments. I don't have any idea what he thinks of Anett-Linda, as I can't recall ever seeing anything on the subject from him. Anyway, if you do find anything, post your source, but it's not in the index of Landing It. His book comments there are about things like Virginia Fratianne's expensive clothes making Hamilton's mother feel self-conscious and out of place, or going out for pizza and a movie with Robin and a group of skaters in Lake Placid.

Bonnie, I remember the Katarina Witt '88 World figure fiasco too. Witt always had a reputation for being terrible at figures and being held up by the judges, and others besides Manley commented on how unfair the '88 Worlds figures were. But things like that also affected some unknown skaters. I think Gary Beacom threw a fit and kicked the boards and withdrew at a Worlds where the judges apparently undermarked his figures, since he wasn't one of the famous top-ranked skaters. Still, you also saw non-medallists like Jean-Christophe Simond winning figures regularly, then dropping off the podium due to their weak free skating.

As far as public reaction to Linda's '80 loss was concerned, it think it depended on where you were, and random luck. I didn't hear a single complaint about the results, but I also wasn't at an arena to see an ice show the next day, and you were in another part of the US, I believe. So we have different perceptions of the general public reaction, but the media reports that I saw at the time were definitely not outraged, nor did ABC's people react the way the US and international press (justifiably) did in SLC. Years later, I did find some '80 newspaper coverage from other cities where the writer had interviewed Fratianne and/or Carroll and had their early-stage whining, but that wasn't in my local paper. Again, random luck as to your impression vs mine. Sports Illustrated was one non-outraged national publication that I assumed at the time to be indicative of the national reaction, rightly or wrongly. Of course, if the internet had existed then, it would have been a whole different ball game.

Interesting Carroll quotes about Fratianne--I don't recall seeing anything from him before where he admitted that she didn't have artistry, and I would be curious to see the actual article. I do blame some of my dislike of Linda's skating on Carroll, as he was the one who gave her strong background music that she was so clearly ignoring and skating against. Something more generic and easily ignored would have helped conceal her lack of musicality, rather than emphasizing it. I always assumed that he was just totally unmusical/unartistic himself and didn't realize the problem, but if he actually recognized her problems and didn't try to disguise or correct them, that's poor coaching, IMHO.

About Anett's cowboy number, I think that's quite an eastern European interest (maybe western European too). I've seen an article about large numbers of Germans who do really elaborate costumed conventions and get-togethers re-enacting what they think of as the US Wild West, and Slutskaya did her western exhibition last season, among others.

Lois

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

Lois - You are so strong on this with an incredible reading matter to back you up. It's not for me to say you are wrong. Your posts are absolutely passionate on this Fratianne/Poetsch thing.

I saw the LP, Fratianne did win that and in my opinion Poetsch's marks were way too high. Regardless of the conspiracy theories or not, I can not change that opinion. It's just me.

Aside from cheating judges, my biggest drawback on a particular skater is the lack of basics and in particular edges. Ms Poetsch sadly lacked in this area. Ms Bielman was way ahead of both when it came to edging. (btw, I am an <em>enfant terrible</em> when it comes to Ms Lipinski and edges.)

As to Robin, I was happy to read he got the gold but I did not see the competition.

Joe

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

Joe, I have no problem with your low opinion of Anett's long program, or actually with Linda being somewhat ahead of Anett in the long, though it was Denise who won the long. Those are just differences of opinion, and defensible ones. I'm not asking you to change your opinion on who should have won. I thought that Fratianne's artistic marks were always way too high, but she did skate better than Anett technically in the long. Some of it comes down to what you value in skating (edges or musicality, spins or jumps, complete package vs quads, whatever). But figures were part of the game then, for better or worse.

There's just a lot of Carroll/Fratianne history that people who didn't see the two competitions won't fully appreciate. For instance, have you ever seen Jan Hoffman skate? If you didn't like Anett's skating, I can't begin to guess how much you would have loathed Jan's (I understand he's a nice guy, though). Talk about stiff and wooden. Robin had great edges, if you've seen him skate, though I'm a big spin fan, which is one reason Denise was my favorite woman at that time (now it's Nathalie Krieg). Anyway, while the women's gold was somewhat controversial, the men's was less so, I think fans who saw the men's event would agree. Aside from Frank Carroll's agenda, I can't think of any "Jan Hoffman was robbed" thread or article, as there seems to be a strong consensus for the men that the best skater won, yet a lot of people who've blindly believed Carroll and didn't see that men's competition, like you, now think the men's gold might have been or is tainted *solely* because of Carroll's lies trying to link ladies and men's results. That's very unfair and nasty.

And there's the matter of making false criminal accusations against Carlo Fassi and the judges that Carroll didn't agree with--that's not a minor matter, truly. Have you ever been involved in a criminal case? I have (as plaintiff, not defendent). Even if there was criminal activity in the ladies event, the singles-swapping charges are dead wrong. Skating has more than enough genuine problems that should be exposed instead of distracting people and wasting time and energy with phony ones.

As I've said before, it's not the legitimate differences of opinion stuff that bothers me with Lake Placid, it's deliberate lies and manipulation of the media and of people who didn't see the competition and can't judge it for themselves (as you can with the ladies long, but not the men, for instance) to make criminal charges against people who, in some cases, can no longer defend themselves. That, to me, is a truth and justice issue, not a taste issue, which I wouldn't spend time on. For instance, the greatest Olympic rip-off for my personal taste was Paul Wylie losing to Victor Petrenko in Albertville, but I stay out of threads on that topic.

Anyway, I've tried to make it clear that I have no objection at all to your opinions on the ladies results. Peace?

Lois

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

Joe, I did see the men's long program at Lake Placid, on television of course, and I can tell you that, in my opinion, at least, the judges (again) awarded the right medals to the right skaters. Robin Cousins' long program had one minor error on one triple jump, but otherwise it was excellent - deep edges, very musical, flashy, strong choregraphy, etc. He was the best that night, and he deserved to win the gold medal.

Jan Hoffman skated a competent program (there's that word again - "competent"), but it was not particularly inspiring. I recall reading a newspaper writeup of the men's long program that equated Hoffman's choregraphy to an "expertly spinning wood tree". Ouch! But the analogy was precise - there wasn't much in the way of artistry in his skating, just jump, jump, jump. His silver medal was well deserved, but he did not deserve the gold medal that night.

Charlie Tickner made mistakes in both his short and long programs but was able to hang on to win the bronze medal. He was awarded nothing higher than he deserved, frankly.

David Santee skating to "Rocky", finished fourth. He skated well, as did Scott Hamilton, who finished fifth. Incidentally, the same article described Hamilton as an "exuberant puppy on the ice". Ouch, again!

SkateFan4Life

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

Thanks guys. I understand you both. If I were auditioning for an ice show, I would definitely hire Denise and Santee. Although I never saw Hoffmann skate, I can imagine from the reviews. Was never keen on Hamilton and Tickner. As for Poetsch, sorry, but she's at the top of my top ten Worst. It must have been a ho hum Oly all round for figure skating.

Joe

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

Gee whiz, guys. It's startling to me that this 23 year old controversy can still arouse such passion and indignation. If <em>we</em> get so het up over it, no wonder the principals -- the people who actually have some stake in the matter -- can't let it go.

When Michelle Kwan came up with silver in Nagano, Frank Carroll took her aside and told her (so I have read) that many well-meaning fans would now be telling her that she had been robbed, etc., etc. Don't listen to them, they will just poison you, he said. You finished second because you held something back on a night when Tara let it all go. That's all. No conspiracy, nothing to whine about. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't.

If this is true -- it was widely reported at the time -- maybe it shows a growth in wisdom on the part of Carroll in the intervening years since 1980.

Mathman

Frank Carroll's attitude

Mathman, I remember reading that Carroll quote too, and thinking that it made it sound like he had changed his attitude 180 degrees and developed some healthy perspective and maturity and wasn't going to do to Michelle what he did to Linda. Unfortunately, right before or around the time that this quote came out, there were several of the very worst of the bitter, whining, lying Carroll and Fratianne interviews hitting the skating magazines and a few newspapers, right after Carlo Fassi's death in '97, and since '98 Carroll's kept up his '80 whining to the media, especially during the 2002 SLC opportunism. So I can't consider his newly mature-sounding public quotes on Michelle to be sincere or indicative of a genuine change of attitude on his part, sadly. But I don't think that Carroll did the sort of unfortunate mind job on Michelle after her loss that he did on Linda.

Lois

Re: Frank Carroll's attitude

Carlo Fassi is a fascinating character to me. I wish he had written a tell-all book before he passed away. Certainly he hinted many times that there was more to winning a gold medal than what you did on the ice. Also important (so it was widely believed at the time) was the political clout of your coach and the support of your federation and its allies behind closed doors.

I have nothing against Frank Carroll, and I think that he and especially Lori Nichol did a wonderful job in guiding Michelle Kwan toward the pinacle of perfection that we are seeing in her skating now. But Carroll did say some inappropriately blunt things about Fassi at the time of Fassi's death.

I personally did not start following figure skating until 1992 (when I fell in love with Kristi, LOL), so I was interested to learn on this thread that Jan Hoffmann was considered a technically competent but "wooden" performer. As a judge, he consistently rewarded artistry over technical skill -- Oksana over Nancy in 1994, Michelle over Tara in 1998.

Mathman

Re: Frank Carroll's attitude

Jan Hoffmann was very young as the started to compete in international competitions. His first Europeans and Olympics were in 1968, he was only 12 years old. He ended his eligible career after the 1980 Worlds which he won. He started his studies and became a Dr. (orthopaed).

He was a great jumper. In two Olympics he lost the gold to artistic skaters. Well, in 1976 he was fourth after Curry, Kovalev and Cranston. I have forgotten what kind of skater Kovalev was?

I agree that it is really interesting that he appreciates the artistry so much in his judging, something which he himself was not so very good at. That is a sign of an open-minded and intelligent person, I would say.

Marjaana

Re: Frank Carroll's attitude

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I agree that it is really interesting that he appreciates the artistry so much in his judging, something which he himself was not so very good at. That is a sign of an open-minded and intelligent person, I would say. [/quote]

Probably because he recognizes how difficult it is to be a great artist and make it look effortless. I think that's great.

I know when he judged at Worlds this year he got a nice cheer from the crowd when his name was announced, probably because he was a championship skater, but also because he is known for fair judging. I don't always agree with him (like at 94 Olys) but I always understand his point of view on skating and think he's a very consistent and fair judge. He took the time to explain WHY he judged the way he did and I respect that.

I wish he could judge more often!

Re: Frank Carroll's attitude

About Jan Hoffman, although he was a very wooden and unartistic skater himself, he has had a rather remarkable career in skating, both on and off the ice, and I very much respect him from what I've seen of his judging, which I agree has recognized the artistic qualities of other skaters that he lacked in his own skating. Most unartistic skaters never develop that appreciation, IMHO, and Jan Hoffman has seemed to be a very fair judge in the competitions where I've seen his placements. On the ice, he competed in 4 consecutive Olympics, starting at age 12, and had serious knee cartilage surgery in the mid-70s that kept him out for a season or so, IIRC. I suppose that's one reason he became an orthopedic doctor, which is also what Debi Thomas did, and other former athletes who go into medical careers. Jan won Worlds very far apart--I believe his first win was in 1973 or 1974, and his 2nd win was in 1980.

Vladimir Kovalev was another wooden, unartistic jumper, somewhat in the Jan Hoffman mode. At the '80 Olympics, he withdrew after figures, and the rumor was that he was pulled out by the Soviets for being drunk, or something along those lines. Wasn't he married to his student Kira Ivanova before she divorced and was eventually murdered? Poor Kira was yet another highly unartistic skater.

About Carlo Fassi, one of the tragedies of his sudden death from a heart attack at '97 Worlds was that he was, in fact, in the early stages of working on a candid book. I didn't know Carlo, but I know some of the material that Carlo had told to the co-author prior to his death, including denial of Frank Carroll's 80 Olympic charges (I believe Carlo, because some of what Carroll has claimed has been demonstrably blatant lies that Carroll has to know were lies) and other stories about Carroll's behavior over the years (they were friends prior to Lake Placid, or at least Carlo thought so, and he said that he tried, unsuccessfully, to stay friends after 1980), as well as some subjects that ought to have seen print, including some stories on racism in skating n the 1960s and Carlo's views on jumping mania (he was against it, at least for women). And of course there were the stories about all te great skaters that he'd coached over the years. It's a sad loss that the book wasn't finished.

Lois

Linda Fratianne Update

I find it interesting how often Scott Hamilton is mentioned in this topic. If he says there was a lot of hanky panky going on in figures, that doesn't make him look good. He won his Olympic gold medal because of his placement in figures. He lost the SP and LP to Brain Orser. I don't mean to say that Brian should have won in '84, figures were part of the game and everyone knew that going in.

Also, just because someone is a champion skater doesn't alwasy make them right. During the mens's even in 2002, Scott said something along the lines of Yagudin conceding the long program to Plushenko. Yagudin then got what, 4 perfect 6.0s?

I will agree with everyone who says that skating is subjective, and there are no right answers, but everyone certainly has an opinion.

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

OK guys, I had to pull out my 1980 Winter Olympics video highlight tape (made by ABC Wide World of Sports) and view the coverage on the women's long program. For better or worse, this is how I viewed it:

Linda Fratianne wore a flaming red skating costume adorned with numerous sequins, and she skated to selections from "Carmen". Her first two jumps, a triple toe and a triple salchow, were completed, but both had shaky landings. Her flying sit spin, however, was right on the money, and she did complete some of her elements with high energy. The section where she started to relax was shown, of course, and she landed a very lovely double axel and several other strong double jumps. She finished strongly to a very noisy standing ovation from the pro-American audience. Obviously, Linda skated the best she could under the white-hot pressure of the Olympics, and she held things together well. She did not crumble under pressure. However, neither did she sparkle, rise to the fore, and skate the program of her life that evening. Her performance was competent but not brilliant, and it was not inspired. Linda simply did not portray the character of Carmen, and her choregraphy and overall skating was as robotic as I've written before on this thread. I did not see any real musical interpretation, just some arm flailing and movements to try to express emotion.

Annet Poetszch wore a orange-colored dress with a skirt that was, well, a bit short. She had lost a number of pounds in an attempt to create a more artistic appearance on the ice. Annet skated to selections from "Funny Girl". As she took to the ice, Jim McKay said, "The story may already have been told here, as Annet finished first in the school figures and only fourth in the short program. The long program is a greater pressure for her." Well, Annet held things together well, all things considered. She doubled her opening triple salchow but then landed another triple salchow later in the program.
A portion of the middle section of her program was shown, and she made obvious attempts to show musical interpretation
and to skate with expression. I would not say that Annet was particularly impressive in the artistic sense, and, frankly, some of her jumps were landed quite awkwardly, but she also skated as well as she was capable of skating under the white hot pressure of the Olympics.

So who skated the better program? I would give Linda the edge technically and Annet the edge artistically, and as the technical score was the tiebreaker in those days, Linda rightfully finished ahead of Annet in the long program.
Fratianne finished second and Poetszch third in the long program.

However, neither of them could hold a candle to the dynamic performance delivered by Denise Biellman, who won the long program. She was fantastic! Great jumps, triple lutz included, high-energy spins, and that terrific Biellman spin.

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

I remember reading the "Sports Illustrated" writeup of the 1980
Olympic ladies figure skating competition. The story had a full-page photography of Linda Fratianne standing at the podium wearing her silver medal, with a banner headine:
"A Sterling Figure". Obviously, SI would have preferred to publish a banner headline of "A Golden Figure", but that's the way the competition went. The article was pretty fair and did not mention any possible collusion among the judges and/or coaches to swing the result to Annet Poetszch.

I also remember reading the SI 1984 Winter Olympics Preview.
This issue previewed the ladies figure skating competition, and it pretty much stated that this would be a showdown between the "athlete", Elaine Zayak, and the "artist", Rosalyn Sumners. It briefly mentioned the 1980 Olympic competition and it said, "In the land of Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill, Linda Fratianne's silver-medal finish was considered to be a slip up. The major ice shows simply do not know what to do with an Olympic skater if she has "only" won a silver medal."

The article was pretty short-sighted, because it did not even mention Katarina Witt. And as we all know, Witt beat everyone in the field and won the first of her two Olympic gold medals at Sarajevo.

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But I don't think that Carroll did the sort of unfortunate mind job on Michelle after her loss that he did on Linda.[/quote]In terms of the differences between Carroll's reaction to Linda's loss and Michelle's I wonder if a lot of it has to do with the fact that Kwan was defeated by a fellow American (Lipinski), whereas Linda's loss was to an Eastern bloc skater. It's very difficult to accuse an international panel of judges of "nationalistic bias" when the top two competitors are from the U.S.A. If Kwan had been beaten by a Russian in a similar situation (both skaters clean), we might have seen a Lake Placid type tirade from Frank again.

I never watched the ladies event from Lake Placid, but reading the reports it does not sound as controversial as a similar situation which took place in 1994 with Baiul/Kerrigan. There were very clear mistakes in Baiul's program, whereas it sounds like Annett was solid (if not spectacular).

I also agree about '88 Worlds in Budapest. Kat Witt certainly won both her Olympic Gold Medals outright. But at '88 Worlds, you could say she was "propped up" based on the school figure reports and the fact her LP performance was nothing to write home about. Could the argument be made that Liz Manley should have won '88 Worlds?

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

the Kerrigan/Baiul very close call and settled with one tenth of a point by Mr. Hoffmann is a pure case of subjective judging. I do not hold it against Hoffmann. Ms. Baiul was the adorable little girl in grown up clothes. That has to be the perfect match to win over an audience and indeed one judge in particular.

Shirley Temple and all of that kind (Durbin and Gardland, eg.) would steal your heart away because of some talent being so cute. Of course, there are others (me, eg) who prefer the more mature lady than the little girl. garland, eg., sang very maturely as she got older and Baiul skates with more passion today than way back when.

Joe

Kerrigan/Baiul

The questionable judging did not come from Mr. Hoffmann. The questionable judging came from the judges who awarded Oksana higher TECHNICAL scores than Nancy. Nancy did 5 triples with a 3/3 combo vs. 3 triples from Oksana. Were Oksana's advantages on the other technical elements (spins, speed, footwork) really THAT much greater? However, this is beating a dead horse.