Best Triple Lutz by a woman? | Golden Skate

Best Triple Lutz by a woman?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_LcQQtO8WA&p=5250BF13B6ADD96B&playnext=1&index=54

2003 SP, a victim of the 6.0 era (where they rewarded reputation and not the actual performance, i.e. MK could have fallen 3 times and still be in 1st), this program should have been 1st place by a billion miles. Correct placements after SP should have been
1. Ye-Bin Mok
2. Anne Patrice McDonough
3. Sasha Cohen
4. Jennifer Kirk
5. Michelle Kwan
6. Amber Corwin
7. Beatrisa Liang
8. Alissa Czisny
9. Louann Donovan
10. Sarah Hughes
 
wonbinfan86 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_LcQQtO8WA&p=5250BF13B6ADD96B&playnext=1&index=54

2003 SP, a victim of the 6.0 era (where they rewarded reputation and not the actual performance, i.e. MK could have fallen 3 times and still be in 1st), this program should have been 1st place by a billion miles. Correct placements after SP should have been
1. Ye-Bin Mok
2. Anne Patrice McDonough
3. Sasha Cohen
4. Jennifer Kirk
5. Michelle Kwan
6. Amber Corwin
7. Beatrisa Liang
8. Alissa Czisny
9. Louann Donovan
10. Sarah Hughes
Click to expand...

No, Michelle most certainly could not fall 3 times and win. Thankfully she has NEVER fallen 3 times in a competition, let alone a single performance. Those rankings are ridiculous. There is no doubt that Kwan was #1. I'm not sure why you are talking about falls when Kwan didn't even make a mistake in her performance. Her speed, edges, fluidity, expression, choreography, interpretation, spirals, and footwork were well beyond Ye-Bin Mok's. Anne Patrice McDonough and Jennifer Kirk over Michelle Kwan? LOL!!!!!!
 
doubleflutz said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3_D6H8aWXc&t=0m48s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyu8GYBRIjE&t=0m29s

Leg wrap, schmeg wrap. For everyone else, I hate it, but with Midori, it just doesn't matter - it's like an adorable quirk.

However, if you are an absolute purist about about technique, well, it doesn't really get much better than this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGkw4Vq1LYA&t=1m11s
Click to expand...

I notice that there seems to be a technique difference between men's and women's triple lutz. The women tend to do a much longer backward glide on their left foot (flat/outside edge) before the take-off on a left outside edge, whereas the men only switch skating onto their left foot right before the take-off. The only woman whose triple lutz technique follows the men's is Yu-na. She, too, only switches over to the left foot right before she toe-picks. (See my example above from her 09 worlds sp, or any recent program for that matter.)*

Here's some recent examples from Plushenko, Takahashi and Abbot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkl5k9j0aNo&t=3m55s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJorSTaB59I&t=3m5s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ieMEfklmuI&t=1m28s

Compare these triple lutz to those by Midori Ito and Tonya Harding, and by the rest of the ladies today except Yu-na, and you'll see the difference.

Also, I think this different technique is relatively new among the men since it seems the men, too, used to do the long backward glide on a left flat/outside edge before the take-off. See Boitano's "tano lutz" in his Olympics freeskate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Rpt0dF9zw.

*I think Rachael Flatt does it too but her wide swinging entrance is a bit odd.
 
Yeah I used to love Yebin Mok's lutz! I also love Tatyana Malinina and Julia Sebestyan's lutz. Midori's lutz is powerful but sometimes I think she flutzed.
 
The size of the 1994 lutz by Tonya was absolutely fabulous.

Yebin Mok's lutz was very special too.

The audience walked out on Yebin at that nationals because she had drawn last to skate in the SP. She was skating to the Swan. They missed a gorgeous program, one of my favorites.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlv6n5EQq3U

However, the 2nd spiral was on a flat edge and the first spin travelled. In that day, the loop was held to be easier than the flip as a jump out of steps, too. She should have been ahead of Sasha, but not Michelle in the SP that year.;

It was very sad that a bad back problem ended her career.

However, Sasha did not deserve a place above Michelle that year.
For one thing, the edges into her lutz and flip swapped back and forth and were utterly identical. In those days, it didn't matter. Her combination here was particularly weak. I'd have her SP behind Yebin's and Michelle's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gC9OrU4IaE

Here's Michelle's Worlds SP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDTYqmcDFpM
That was the year that Michelle was skating to "The Feeling Begins". (Here's the Nationals SP)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlOChjEmwOo
While Michelle does not deserve a best ever Lutz award, this one in her combo is well done, and is not done out of a long glide, either.

Neither Ann Patrice's nor Jenny Kirk's SP are on youtube. However, there was never a competition in which Jenny Kirk did not flutz, plus she was slow. No way should she have beaten Michelle's best ever SP.l

Ann Patrice, by and large, had nice jumps, although the exit edge wasn't always the greatest. But the extension on her spirals in 2003 were not great at all, and her spins travelled. My guess is that she might have deserved 3rd. Maybe Sasha in 3rd.
 
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Tonya Harding wins hands down for me personally. I also consider her the greatest jumper in the history of women's f.s., heck even better than the men's, truth be told.

That said, Oksana Baiul's 3L was truly a thing of beauty when on (yeah I know it was rarely on, but when she did hit it, watch out, world!). Unfortunately I am having problems with youtube right now, so am unable to find her 2000 Goodwill Games FS to "Dove L'Amore" by Cher. But this is what Peter Carruthers had to say about it at the time:

"One of the most incredible triple lutzes I've ever seen! That's bigger than Brian Boitano's...that was H-U-G-E!"


Regards the triple lutz jump itself, I'm a traditionalist when it comes to this jump, and by that I mean I favor the long gliding edge going into it, which used to be the norm until this past decade when those that couldn't hold the proper edge shortened it, so now it makes it hard to distinguish at times from the triple flip. Big no-no from me. Bring back the loooong gliding edge, please, thank you. :)
 
I agree with ks777 about Julia Sebastien. Also Victoria Volchkova had a fine Lutz (though telegraphed).
 
treeloving said:
Wow! I love that, so good.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is great. But it's not like it was a regular occurence - the way it is with Yuna.
Wondering about the long entry - I like Yuna's steps into a much, much shorter entry.

Russian Barbie aka Cupcake could unleash a good 3Lz and there is a clip where she appears to use the longest entry in history with Button getting all over her about it.

I notice Plushy needs a very long entrance - almost like the girls as opposed to Evan who can step right into this jump at times without circling the rink twice.

Which is preferrable? For me, too much telegraphing on any jump is not anything I find attractive.
I like Akiko's jumps - but she does tend to need more time to set them up.
 
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I like Mao’s.

I am glad she’s now cut the correction crap and getting back her good old lutz.

Her lutz is better than the thing of her latest invention, the sal-loop, by a mile!
 
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The reason the boys are doing a short setup is that they are sometimes choosing to do the lutz out of steps in the SP. Having a long glide gets you dinged for not being "out of steps." Most people would not deliberately waste time learning two different entries to the same jump if they didn't have to. However, it's a fact that originally, the long glide was felt to be a requirement for a good lutz. That would be why Boitano used one, not because he couldn't do it the other way. Same for Tonya, who was in the same era.

The first guy I remember using lots of little steps into a lutz was Tim Goebel, and he did it to disguise that his outside edge on the lutz was not the strongest. And it's still being used that way today. If fact, if I had a persistent flutzing girl, I' might suggest the same thing to her.

There is nothing that shows a weak lutz edge like wiggling back and forth on it on a long glide.
 
Nadine said:
Tonya Harding wins hands down for me personally. I also consider her the greatest jumper in the history of women's f.s., heck even better than the men's, truth be told.

That said, Oksana Baiul's 3L was truly a thing of beauty when on (yeah I know it was rarely on, but when she did hit it, watch out, world!). Unfortunately I am having problems with youtube right now, so am unable to find her 2000 Goodwill Games FS to "Dove L'Amore" by Cher. But this is what Peter Carruthers had to say about it at the time:

"One of the most incredible triple lutzes I've ever seen! That's bigger than Brian Boitano's...that was H-U-G-E!"


Regards the triple lutz jump itself, I'm a traditionalist when it comes to this jump, and by that I mean I favor the long gliding edge going into it, which used to be the norm until this past decade when those that couldn't hold the proper edge shortened it, so now it makes it hard to distinguish at times from the triple flip. Big no-no from me. Bring back the loooong gliding edge, please, thank you. :)
Click to expand...

For me, the quality of Tonya's jumps weren't that great. Her jumps were tilted most of the time in the air and she never had beautiful soft landing.
 
Nadine said:
T
That said, Oksana Baiul's 3L was truly a thing of beauty when on (yeah I know it was rarely on, but when she did hit it, watch out, world!). Unfortunately I am having problems with youtube right now, so am unable to find her 2000 Goodwill Games FS to "Dove L'Amore" by Cher. But this is what Peter Carruthers had to say about it at the time:

"One of the most incredible triple lutzes I've ever seen! That's bigger than Brian Boitano's...that was H-U-G-E!"
Click to expand...


I tried to find that program on Youtube, but it seems not be there. But I do remember watching it before and it was great.
 
janetfan said:
Yes, it is great. But it's not like it was a regular occurence - the way it is with Yuna.
Wondering about the long entry - I like Yuna's steps into a much, much shorter entry.
Click to expand...

I agree that Yuna has better jump entrance and more consistency with Lutz, but for one jump alone I have to say that even with out difficult entry,I love harding's jump on the link.:cool:
 
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