B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs

Re: B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs

Jaana - There is no reason to debate the Gold medals in Figure Skating in this thread.

The debate is supposedly about two teams from the recent Olys. You could start another thread on the topic of Russian prowess in figure skating. If you do, be sure you don't include Ladies Figure Skating.

I contend there is a lot of tanked up anger in this thread that goes beyond the Pairs debate. Get over it!

Joesitz

Re: B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs

Joesitz, my post was just an answer to one of your comments where you yourself specifically mention the US and Canadian medals since old times in this thread. I explained in my message the reason why I did not include the ladies and men.

Marjaana

Re: B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs

Jaana - If you read through the posts there are several bashings of North Americans. I felt it necessary to remind those posters that Canada and the US have a history of excellent figure skating as well as cultural events. It was not to compare with Russia or other European countries. The alternative was to zap them but I like other posters to read the personalities of bashers, and draw their own conclusions.

Joe

Re: B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs

Wow, rgirl. Huge post. Thanks, and I agree with most of what you said.

For the record, I didn't think she was off-topic at all. I brought up the difference in emotion in S&P's program versus B&S's program, and several of us began talking about how that could be perceived differently and culturally. If anything, that is merely a sub-topic of the thread's topic.

Re: B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs

Joe, it's the heart of the off season, and with no senior international skating competitions taking place, the UberFans on all sides of the ponds have no outlet for the anger that seems so self-justified in the winter. Boy are we a prickly bunch at times.

That being said, I have but one comment left to share:

SLC 2003. It happened. Nothing can change that fact, nor can it change the outcome. Let it go, for crying out loud. Even my 7 year old knows when to get over things better than this (and she's stubborn as hell, just like her mom :lol: ).

Now then, can we move to a real important topic, like "Who's likeliest to have the tackiest/funniest costume next season?"

slc 2002

Sk8cynic - I agree with you about the pent-up anger from certain fans. IMO, it is natural for certain fans to be upset however that does not lead to "bashing" skaters, which in turn upset their fans. Like the other past B&S and S&P threads, I was going to skip this one too until I saw what I believe is bashing skaters. I just don't think it belongs here or on any other forums.

I have come to the conclusion that what happened in SLC 2002 was meant to happen:

- it was the catalyst needed to bring change to the skating world

Unfortunately, the lives and careers of the four skaters and a few whistleblowers were turned upside down. Having said that, I am glad to see Elena, Anton, Jamie and David setting a good example by doing what I think is the right thing - making up and moving on. Now, if only the *fans* can do the same... then maybe ...just maybe... we will see an end to all of this.

P.S. - Attention to all Margarita and Pavlas fans. They are skating in the Sun Valley show. I think they are are supposed to be in the opening act. The show has started or is about to start in the next week or so. Let us hope Rita and Pavlas really do a great job and some PTB in SOI notice them and hire them one day. That would be a dream come true for me.

mzheng, do stay!

mzheng,
We need more diversity of opinion on GS, IMO, and I'm glad you stopped here to provide it.
rgirl,
as always a great post.

I think you can not underestimate the power of Love Story performed live. As mathman said, the book was dreadful, the movie not much better. In fact, I really disliked both and wasn't crazy about the music either. When Iwent to Skate America 99, I went particularly to see B&S. Unfortunately they skated dreadfully in both the SP and LP. What was there was the first performance of S&P skating to Love Story, which they skated without flaw. It was the first time I had ever seen S&P skate (really, a similar situation to the casual fan first seeing the Olympics).

The Love Story came on, and my reaction was, oh blech. they are skating to that old chestnut love story. And then I got more drawn into it, about the time of the snowball fight, I was going, well isn't that cute, how nice, and then Jamie does the stricken with leukemia bit, and I remember that she dies at the end of Love Story, and I'm hooked, I'm teared up (at the old chestnut yet), and I'm on my feet with the rest of the crowd, pounding my hands to pulp at the end of the routine.

In person, the impact was amazing, and I am sure it was in SLC.

But as to NA audiences being unable to appreciate classical, or non NA, the counter examples are many, most important being:
1. S&Z Turandot World's 2003
2. B&S Lady Caliph SLC 2002 (the best pairs SP ever done IMO)

And the concept of Canadians and Americans being the same insults both populations. At Worlds we were all wondering whether the Canadian and French skaters would be booed!! because of the conflicts between US and Canada and France over Iraq, and DC being where these things are felt as keenly as anywhere.

That said, there are cultural tastes in common between US and Canada, but that is perhaps more similar to say Russia and Poland.

dpp

Re: mzheng, do stay!

Doris,
Thanks. Excellent point about how different it is seeing things live and especially interesting to hear from someone who saw "Love Story" expecting not to be affected and who was indeed very affected.

Something I would like to add, and this is not aimed at you Doris but rather a general point of contention, is that I don't think that discussing cultural differences between Eastern Europeans and North Americans in this situation means that one is necessarily "bashing" North Americans nor saying that all Americans and Canadians think alike. I think a lot of people have simply brought up differences in perception based on cultural background and couldn't cover every contingency, but then that's what discussions are for. IMO, cultural differences in reacting to figure skating is a valid point and as long as skaters and nationalities are not attacked, the people who post their opinions on these issues should not be attacked either.

For me, some competitions represent fundamental differences in terms of how two teams, in this case, can skate very different programs and yet be virtually tied--staying away from the judging scandal just to make the point--and the various issues raised by such a situation. I think that had the Internet been around in the late '80s, the Battle of the Brians would have been discussed for years, as well as many other close events. I know for me, thinking of "Love Story" and "Meditation" in terms of the COP put a new spin on them, but even if there were not a COP, sometimes the passage of time allows people to see new things in a program. I think there were two kinds of anger going on in this thread: anger over bashing, some real, some perceived; and anger over the subject. Of course I think anger over true bashing is justified, but if you just don't like the subject, you don't have to read it. JMO.

<em>Summertime and the snarkin' is easy...</em> Just kidding. But it is HOT in NY and how's THIS for off topic? Even though I called the electrician a year ago complaining about my AC blowing the fuse and paid $60 for him to tell me not to run the microwave while the AC was on, and then called him again the second it did it again this year with the MW on a totally different circuit, the guy has the NERVE to be on jury duty and then a VACATION! which means he can't fix my wiring for two weeks! I think he arranged all this on purpose just to make me miserable! AND he did this right after my plumbing went. Okay, so I'll try not to post until everything is fixed
Rgirl
Rgirl
Rgirl

Re: mzheng, do stay!

Just to get my 2 cents in on the "pent-up anger". I believe that FAN based wishes are the hot points on this issue of B&S and S&P.

That is why I was just fed up with bringing up the subject again. It was a tie due to the judge who was under pressure to place one of the teams in first place. Tie games are never satisfying neither for the teams in a sport or their fans.

I truly believe the posters who had predetermined points of view on the contest are those who had an overwhelming expectation of the results which were not forthcoming. That is, imo, the gist of the debate on this thread - not which team skated THEIR BEST THAT NIGHT but which team is the better of the two in any given event.

I remember the anticipation of a group of friends and myself going to watch COI in NYC. We were going to see Michelle Kwan live! That night at Madison Square Garden, La Kwan was a bore, but it didn't change my mind about whom I think is the 'greatest'.

So, imo, this thread is solely about letting loose some pent up anger and not a reflexion of two excellent international Pairs Teams other than fan idolatary.

Joe

Re: mzheng, do stay!

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So, imo, this thread is solely about letting loose some pent up anger and not a reflexion of two excellent international Pairs Teams other than fan idolatary.[/quote]

Well, I took part in this thread.

AND

I wasn't letting loose any pent-up anger at all, because I have none about the SLC Olympics.

So...nope, there's more to this thread than that.

Re: What IS This Thread About?

Joe,
Thanks for clarifying and expounding on your views of this thread. While I do agree that some of the posts were written in terms of "fan-based wishes" and, as you said, "overwhelming expectations" of what should have happened in the '02 Olympic pairs competition between S&P and B&S. However I think those posts were relatively few in terms of the entire thread and that many people did discuss how these teams skated that night. Yes, some subtopics came out of it, some appropriate and some, like one of mine , that digressed too much, but I don't see digressions as a reason to get angry, just as a reason to remind people to stick to the main topic.

So I have to agree with Spirit that there is more to this thread than pent-up anger regarding the outcome of the pairs competition in SLC.

You said you were fed up with people bringing up this topic again. I think we probably all have topics that when we see them come up again just make us groan. Generally I would say, "So just don't take part," however I know that with you being a moderator, you may not have that luxury. But if a topic really annoys you, is it possible to ask another moderator to watch the thread? I'm not trying to tell you how to do your job--I appreciate what you did here in addressing some of the sniping that was going on--I just don't want to see you or anybody annoyed by a thread when they're just sick of the topic, especially when there are a number of people on the thread who have said they are learning interesting things from the discussions.

I know for myself, I've gotten some interesting viewpoints and information from a number of posts on this thread. Berthes Ghost was helpful to me when she questioned what I meant when I said I thought "Love Story" would go over differently in an Eastern European city. Her comments made me examine what I wrote, try to be clearer in what I rewrote, and made me realize that the way I had originally written it could've been easily interpreted to mean something I did not intend. IMO, this is a good thing and something I appreciate.

I also got a lot out of Doris's post about the effect of seeing "Love Story" live as well as the other things she had to say. Mzheng's observations and questions were also very interesting to me. I could go on with about 10 other posts I got something out of. OTOH, I can understand that there are topics that some people just can't stomach. Apparently this is one of them for you (we need a little barfing emoticon ). I do appreciate your work as moderator in making sure any sniping didn't get out of hand. But I think that once Sk8Cynic and you raised the issue, the few incidents of "snarking" (love to use that word ) stopped.

Anyway, maybe the thread has reached its natural end or maybe people still have things they would like to discuss. IMO, as long as people are being respectful and not getting too far off the topic, the thread should be allowed to go on.
Rgirl
PS I bet I was at that same COI show--Madison Square Garden?--you saw where you thought Michelle's skating was boring but that she was still "the greatest." I bet it was either the year she skated as Peter Pan ('95 I think) or '96 when I think she skated "Mulan." (Somebody correct me if I have the years wrong.) Now, see, it took me until Nationals '03 to think Michelle was the greatest--but I know, I know, that's another thread

Re: What IS This Thread About?

Michelle skated to "Mulan" in the middle of the 1998 COI tour. She started with "Dante's Prayer" but switched to "Mulan" to help promote the movie, which later led to MK's "Mulan on Ice" tv special.