The American Ladies Leading Up To Sochi. | Page 3 | Golden Skate

The American Ladies Leading Up To Sochi.

Hernando said:
Just a thought, have heard nothing so I am just specualting. I hope Frank does not dump Mirai just as I hope Mirai does not quit Frank.

But it wouldn't surprise me if they decided to make a change.
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Maybe Mirai needs a change. It's not about good/bad, right/wrong, and other judgements but about what works. The old saying of "never give up" refers to the goal, not the methodology. We all know what Einstein's definition of insanity is.

I know Mirai genuinely loves skating. I also know about her irrepressible personality but I have no idea if she is an ambitious competitor with a high aim. Maybe somebody can enlighten me on that, or I need to look up more of her interviews.

Oh, the only skater with the babushka hips that comes to my mind is an American male.
 
Hernando said:
Maybe you are right but let's consider their last big Intl competitions.

Mirai beat Rachael at the Olympics. Mirai beat Rachael at 2010 Worlds. Mirai beat Rachael at 4CC. These are all prestigious Intl ISU events.

It is true that coming off an injury Mirai did not qualify for the GPF this season. No need to bring up how Rachael performed at the GPF.

Not so sure I see a pattern or basic results that show Rachael is a better competitor than Mirai, atleast at the biggest Intl ISU events.

The other fact worth noting could be that Mirai equals or beats the scores she gets at Natls at Intl events.
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You have a point...however, since 2008, Nagasu has not beaten Flatt at US Nationals. This is flatt's 3rd worlds appearance, while Nagasu has only been on one (2010 Olys/Worlds). But it's more than just results. It's performance, consistency issues. Now, since Flatt got injured, she has had a few more off-nights, including the infamous GPF meltdown. Still, Nagasu continues to let her nerves get the better of her even when she is in peak condition. She doesn't seem to trust herself, believe in herself. But those are not things that happen automatically.

Note that I'm not saying any of this to put either skater down. I wish both of them luck in the future.

P.S. that "irrepressible personality" is one of the things I enjoy most about Nagasu. You don't always get the typical canned, scripted answers in her interviews. :love: That said, it's definitely possible that it could be getting in the way of her true success..
 
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Spun Silver said:
When you look at people like Dai, Mao, and Miki, you see the most amazing determination to overcome hardships, the most exceptional work ethic. I'm not sure I see that when I look at Mirai. (Has Frank ever praised her work ethic?) She still comes across as a child in many ways, compared with the Japanese skaters - and I'm not talking about age but maturity. Yet she has every bit as much talent as they have, as far as I can tell, and one of the best coaches in the business.
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Could you elucidate the hardships that Dai, Mao and Miki had to overcome. I believe the Japan Fed is quite able to take care of its skaters. Japanese elite skaters do not have the struggles of those skaters who come from nonBig Six countries.

If Mirai does not like Frank's work ethic, she can go to another coach. Until she does, we have no way of knowing that Frank upsets her. She's the youngest of those you mentioned and happens to be so talented that she is competing against skaters with more experience than her. I don't think her goal is to win the Olys at the youngest age. Tara has done that, and the ISU blocked anyone else from doing it.
 
^ Not sure it's fair to talk about Nagasu continuing to wilt under pressure even when in peak condition. She did anything but wilt skating last at the Olympics, after Mao and Yu Na. I don't think we saw her in peak condition this season. She was injured and off the ice for two months before the season began and I'm not sure if she was even caught up by Nationals. Frank said she "didn't get her act together until about three weeks" before Nats and "that's not really long enough." http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/sports_globetrotting/mirai-nagasu/

Hopefully next season will show us what kind of competitor Mirai is now when she's in tip-top shape. Go, Mirai!

ETA: Joe: Dai had major surgery, was off the ice for a long time, and had to reconstruct his skating. Mao has struggled with the long, hard challenge of rebuilding her jumps and getting horrible results since the Olympics (well, her results are not horrible now but they're still not what they were). Miki, after getting a spot in the 2006 Olympics, did badly there and lost face bigtime in Japan; she was pretty much written off as over the hill by fans everywhere, and now look at her.
 
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tobynwinnie said:
Yes the Russian "girls" are very good. But they aren't done growing. It's unlikely they will have the same thin frames they currently have. Mirai and Christina are likely full grown and have adjusted technically to their new bodies. Wasn't it Mishin who said when asked why there weren't more good Russian women's skaters compared to Japan. He said "Russian women are built to lay rail road tracks" and don't have the narrow hips of the Asian women so they lose their jumps.
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This is true but Irina Slutskaya who had a sturdier build for a skater was quite the amazing jumper, meanwhile Polina Shelepen who has the right build to be a runway model has struggled with her jumps all season. So I think it really depends. Miki Ando was at her jumping prime when she was substantially heavier than she is now, and obviously Midori Ito wasn't a pixie, and even Shizuka Arakawa, who was and is really thin, had wide hips despite her thinness. So filling out could potentially hurt these girls jumping abilities, but there's a chance it could also help. Adelina is still very small, but was much more fragile looking last season when she was struggling with her jumps and this season she was so consistent with her jumps. Gaining a few pounds of muscle and wider hips could potentially help someone like Polina Shelepen become more consistent with her jumps as well. It really depends on the skater and the way they jump. Girls with poor technique and extra quick rotation in their triples are usually the ones that lose their jumps after puberty, but girls who actually jump their jumps and have good technique usually fair better. Just my observation. Adelina and Liza can really jump and have great technique so I'm not too worried about them losing their jumps and further, looking at how Agnes towers over both of them, I don't think either girl will wind up being above 5'5" when all is said and done.
 
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R.D. said:
You have a point...however, since 2008, Nagasu has not beaten Flatt at US Nationals. s..
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I guess I do have a point since Rachael did not beat Mirai at the Olympics, Worlds or 4cc.

As a fan of US ladies which results do you think matter more?

While you are at it consider the scores Rachael gets at Natls which are higher than how Intl judges score her. As we have seen that is not always the case for Mirai.

Does it matter? A non-fan should not have a problem overlooking the obvious, no?

Tell you what, Rachael is overdue for a really good skate. Hope she brings it at Worlds and can finish in the top six.
 
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This is a very interesting thread and I understand the difference between speculation and actual factual data but when I think back to the 2010 Olympic Cycle, I think of titles like: Mao, Yuna, Kimmie and Emily will battle it out to see who will win gold! Caroline Zhang - the Next Big Thing! and whatnot. Its waaayy too early to tell.

I have little confidence that Yuna, Miki and Alissa will stick around that long. Mao is always a question mark in my mind. Rachael will need to decide between skating and school at some point. Ashley needs major work across the board to compete today, much less in two years. Things get interesting when you start talking about Christina and Agnes. One will be the US's best hope and the other will be done. Christina looks the part, Agnes skates the part but who wll it be? Its hard to tell. Agnes today appears to have the edge, but she's not there yet for all the reasons listed above. Christina has the look of a US champ but her skating leaves me cold. But to be honest, both resemble other skaters that its hard to get a good feel for their true talent level. Do I like Agnes' skating or the whole Tonya Harding look & vibe? Is Christina really that elegant or does she remind me of Yuna? Its hard to say...

Its also hard to predict how the newbies on the JGP circuit are gonna fare on the big stage... After Caroline, I try not to pay attention until they hit the seniors rank - too many skaters, not enough time...

Now, my darling namesake MiRai is the true question mark. Since 2010, she's said she is the future of this sport. And I agree. But that future started this season. She has all the potential and talent to be legendary but she's gonna have to learn to compete. RD is right - she's getting her clock cleaned by skaters without her natural talent because that competitive it-factor isn't syncing up with her star quality. It might be time for her to switch coaches but it also might time for her to get to a sports psychologist...
 
evangeline said:
Yes, Mishin must have been thinking about giant, hulking, railroad-building Russian women like Ekaterina Gordeeva when he said that. Or Elena Berezhnaya. Possibly Vera Bazarova as well. Their hips definitely don't lie.

The thing is, there are so many good Russian girls that the odds are at least one of them will be able to retain their jumps post-puberty. For example--I believe Mishin himself has made inquiries about the physical size of Liza T's parents before taking her on as a pupil.
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I think you're correct. Mishin did inquire about the size of Liza T's parents before taking her on. So maybe Liza T will remain waif like as Mishin is one smart cookie. Gordeeva and Berezhnaya were pretty thin when they competed as are most Russian pairs skaters. Gordeeva is still very thin. But neither were singles skaters doing triple triples or triple axels. going back to the title of this thread....I think Mirai and Christina are our best bets going into Sochi. Im just not that exited about any of the new young ones. But...we all know that if there's one out there she will break through in the next two seasons just in time for Sochi.
 
Kwanford Wife I think you have a point about Agnes and Christina. They are both talented, to be sure, but I agree that Agnes has the looks, jumps, and attack of a jockette power skater in the vein of Tonya Harding, Irina Slutskaya, etc and Christina the asian beauty factor, jumping ability, and long, lithe body line similar to Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, Shizuka Arakawa, etc. For both girls, I think their respective "images" work in their favor. It's exciting to ascertain the possibility that the US might have the next Irina Slutskaya or Yuna Kim coming up through the ranks. But just because Agnes is muscular, explosive, and flexible like Irina and Christina is asian, long-limbed, and capable of a great 3f-3t like Yuna, doesn't mean that our hopes will become a reality - but they could and I think that's why a lot of people, myself included, are expecting big things from them in the future, particularly because it's hard to predict what will happen to the girls younger and older than those two in the next three years and Mirai continues to be an enigma.
 
Rachel beat Mirai 200 to 188 at 2010 Nats, but many watching on TV without slow mo thought Mirai the winner. Mirai was called for 2 or 3 UR's. In 2011 Nats, Rachel won 183 v 177. Both had 2 major mistakes, and it looked pretty even to many. Rachel had her competitive face on, and was rewarded accordingly. Mirai had her beautiful lines and extensions, and received little reward. So Rachel received a 200 at 2010 Nats, but 182 in Vancouver and 167 at Torino worlds, whichs supports Hernando's contention.
This season, Mirai has gone from 146 coming off an injury at Coc, 167 at TEB, 177 at Nats, and 189 at 4CC. There was a big scoring increase in each succeeding competition.
 
b-man said:
Rachel had her competitive face on, and was rewarded accordingly. Mirai had her beautiful lines and extensions, and received little reward.
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That is a very interesting point. The first rule of show business, sell it, sell it. sell it.

When Mirai came off the ice she looked defeated. If she had just held her head up a lttle she might have got ten more points.
 
Kwanford Wife said:
...Rachael will need to decide between skating and school at some point. Ashley needs major work across the board to compete today, much less in two years. Things get interesting when you start talking about Christina and Agnes. One will be the US's best hope and the other will be done. Christina looks the part, Agnes skates the part but who wll it be? Its hard to tell. Agnes today appears to have the edge, but she's not there yet for all the reasons listed above. Christina has the look of a US champ but her skating leaves me cold. But to be honest, both resemble other skaters that its hard to get a good feel for their true talent level. Do I like Agnes' skating or the whole Tonya Harding look & vibe? Is Christina really that elegant or does she remind me of Yuna? Its hard to say...
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Agree with much of this post. I'd give it another year to allow Gao and Zawadzki to come into their element though. One never knows- remember the ugly duckling?

I think Rachel has already chosen school, and it's only a matter of time before she either leaves, or her level of competitiveness begins to slide. Wagner needs work (a LOT of work), but I'll hold off on calling her a lost cause for now since she seems determined to make the necessary changes. CZhang basically out of it now. Czisny is ALWAYS a question mark in any competition. Like I said before, that leaves only Nagasu...

(If Czisny happens to do amazingly well at Worlds (i.e. medal) and decides to continue on to next season, thoughts may need to be revised somewhat, but until that happens, what I said above stands.)


It might be time for [Nagasu] to switch coaches but it also might time for her to get to a sports psychologist...
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I think Nagasu needs to FIRST decide whether it is worth the effort. If there's something else she would rather do than skate, it might be a good idea to head in that direction. I elaborated in a previous post but when things come to you easily and you have a talent, I'm telling you it is QUITE easy to get comfortable and coast through. Talent alone isn't enough- you need what Yuna Kim has, the drive, work ethic and determination to go along with that talent. Not saying that is what is happening to Nagasu per se, but it is a scenario that the armchair skate fan should consider (IMO).

When Mirai came off the ice she looked defeated. If she had just held her head up a lttle she might have got ten more points.
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All that is needed in this "sport", no? ;)
 
When Mirai came off the ice she looked defeated. If she had just held her head up a lttle she might have got ten more points.
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All that is needed in this "sport", no?
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Fact: Abbott was all happy and nonchalant after his LP at Nats but he still missed the podium and a trip to Worlds by less than a point, lost to a newbie with no rep.

By the time a skater gets off the ice, the judges have already entered all their GOEs, even if the TP may do some reviews. So far tech call controversies have been mostly from the US Nationals.
 
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R.D. said:
Agree with much of this post. I'd give it another year to allow Gao and Zawadzki to come into their element though. One never knows- remember the ugly duckling?

I think Rachel has already chosen school, and it's only a matter of time before she either leaves, or her level of competitiveness begins to slide. Wagner needs work (a LOT of work), but I'll hold off on calling her a lost cause for now since she seems determined to make the necessary changes. CZhang basically out of it now. Czisny is ALWAYS a question mark in any competition. Like I said before, that leaves only Nagasu...

(If Czisny happens to do amazingly well at Worlds (i.e. medal) and decides to continue on to next season, thoughts may need to be revised somewhat, but until that happens, what I said above stands.)




I think Nagasu needs to FIRST decide whether it is worth the effort. If there's something else she would rather do than skate, it might be a good idea to head in that direction. I elaborated in a previous post but when things come to you easily and you have a talent, I'm telling you it is QUITE easy to get comfortable and coast through. Talent alone isn't enough- you need what Yuna Kim has, the drive, work ethic and determination to go along with that talent. Not saying that is what is happening to Nagasu per se, but it is a scenario that the armchair skate fan should consider (IMO).
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Who was the ugly duckling??

And I agree with you regarding Rachael and Mirai, and Alissa too. So at this point it's a "wait and see" game for most of the girls actually.
 
SkateFiguring said:
By the time a skater gets off the ice, the judges have already entered all their GOEs,...
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They might still be mulling over the P/E component, though. Pick up those teddy bears like you just conquered the world! A few fist pumps never hurt, either. The judges might think, gee, maybe that wasn't as bad as I thought. :yes:
 
Mathman said:
That is a very interesting point. The first rule of show business, sell it, sell it. sell it.

When Mirai came off the ice she looked defeated. If she had just held her head up a lttle she might have got ten more points.
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Mirai forgot she was competing in a pageant ;)

She most likely knew in a close contest the US judges would not give it to her.
Seems like it is becoming a habit.
 
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I sense a lot of negativity in this thread, like the U.S. ladies have no chance at the next few Worlds or the next Olympics. But I remember the sage advice my driving instructor gave me.

"It's the car you don't see that kills you." :laugh:
 
Hernando said:
Mirai forgot she was competing in a pageant ;)
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:) Well, here's what I think about that. All sport is pageant. Check out the chariot race in Ben Hur. :yes: This is not to say that Judah Ben Hur was not a superbly trained athlete (a couple of years of cross-training as a rower did wonders.) What figure skating needs is some of those decorative fish on poles that dip down to mark the revolutions in a spin.

Check out the Olympics. The most popular events are the opening and closing ceremonies.

When the final flight of skaters enters the arena an insipid voice drones over the PA system, "Will the following skaters please take the ice?" When a football team comes out onto the field, they've got cheerleaders, they've got baton twirlers, they've got the card section, they've got Janet Jackson falling out of her top, they've got a 150-piece marching band blaring out the fight song, they've got a mascot in a tiger costume AND a live tiger in a cage. Now that's sports! ;)

Back in the day, figure skating was half sport, half pageant. The sport part comprised the school figures. The pageant part was the free skating.

Then they dropped figures. :cool:
 
^^^ Am in total agreement but can we also say some sports are more "pageanty" than others?
 
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