Lysacek out of Grand Prix; at odds with USFS

jcoates · Oct 18, 2011

Mathman said:
I do not regard this stance as particularly noble, however. The Japanese Skating Federation charges admission to NKH. They receive money from television contracts -- lots of it. I would be more impressed with the JSF's stand on the virtues of amateurism if they invited the public to come to their shows for free and gave all the television money away to charity (including their own salaries).

To say that it is bad for other people to make money, but good for me to do so -- well, whatever.

Perfectly stated. It's not about the label applied to the status of the sport/athletes. Just because you give something an arbitrary label for the purpose of maintaining an outdated perception does not make it so. It's about the quality of the competition, the public's desire to see it and to pay for it. If such payments are made, the collection of those funds should not be monopolized by the people doing the least amount of work (federations and television networks) at the expense of the athletes.

BTW, I believe the JSF's statement about as much as I believe television journalists who claim they don't pay celebrities for interviews. It's called saving face. Even if payments are not direct, there's always indirect means of compensation, especially if the name is big enough.

BTW, for those USFSA supporters who've been asking for more detail on how these arrangements are negotiated and handled, this document may provide more insight. (Note it's an online PDF file.)

sorcerer · Oct 18, 2011

Mathman said:
...The Japanese Skating Federation charges admission to NKH. They receive money from television contracts -- lots of it. ...

I'm not sure about that, so I'll check it later.
The budget of JSF is on internet each year. Only the outline so we can't guess the details but we can see the monetary scale of their activities.
http://www.skatingjapan.or.jp/images/jsf/file/22yosan.pdf

I'm quite positive that most of the income achieved by its figure skating section goes to fill the deficit of the speed skating and short track sections, in total they don't make that much money for sure.

I imagine it's the same with other federations that JSF is a non-commercial foundation, in this case affiliated to JOC and supervised by the Ministry of Education and Science.

JSF is not necessarily noble, I agree, but in a different sense, that its perception of the skaters is too much like being their obedient pupils.

BTW NHK is still a state owned company which its budgets are controlled by the National Diet, and no ads on broadcasts.

Bluebonnet · Oct 18, 2011

Ask whatever you want. But withdraw in such a late date only because you didn't get what you asked for, simply doesn't sound nice to me. Especially he was "extremely trained" and everything was good to go, with eager fans who were looking forward to seeing him again, and with the federation who was backing him up, supported him and helped him enormously in the last a few years.

USFSA is in the back seat already compared with other countries. Seemed to me that many people feel that the easiest way in any case is to blame an organization instead of an individual. But if there is not a strong organization, it's like a pile of sand, not a piece of clay. It undermines the whole interest of this country, just like we've seen in US world team selection.

If the USFSA denied Lysacek's request, it must be a regretful but correct decision, given that USFSA must have been trying to do everything they possibly can to have Lysacek back on the band-wagon together to promote this sport. JMO.

sorcerer · Oct 18, 2011

Jcoates, it's sometimes better to be outdated, when being up-to-date means that things have gone too far and away from its original ideal.

Of course no country can be completely free from current trends, but the ideals and images of the sport vary country by country.

Mathman · Oct 18, 2011

Buttercup said:
MM - you're joking, right? Hosting a GP costs money. Funding skaters' training and running developmental programs costs money. JSF appears to be quite well-run, and Japanese figure skating is in great shape. Clearly they are using their income well (I assume the stuff about donating salaries was definitely a joke).

I was serious about this point: if you are not willing to make a financial sacrifice yourself then you cannot dictate from your moral throne that others ought to.

sorcerer said:
It's sometimes better to be outdated, when being up-to-date means that things have gone too far and away from its original ideal.

The original ideal of amateurism was this. In earlier times the young men of the nobility wished to engage in athletic exercises without having to rub shoulders with the commoners (i.e., with those who had to work for a living).

Evan Lysacek is not the Grand Duke of Naperville who can dabble in skating because he makes millions off the labor of his serfs.

seniorita · Oct 18, 2011

sorcerer said:
You can reconfirm the JSF on this matter if you like.

I for one wish Kozuka and Dai and Mao etc get also a fee appearance, and all federations do it, it came as surprise cause i didnt know it can happen in gp, but it is not like skaters, even the very top like evan, earn the same amount of money as football or tennis players and they arent doing less. I recently read Agassi's book and I dont even remember how much money he got paid to appear.
I just dont like it all that this with lysacek twit became public and open for speculations.

CoyoteChris · Oct 18, 2011

Thanks, jcoates. That PDF was very interesting....If Evan were to ask to skate for bucks in central Idaho, for instance, on say July 16th and July 23rd 2011, he puts in the paperwork request, and USFSA gets a piece of the action.....the PDF said the USFS is helping skaters keep their status by doing this.....
So there must be ISU rules on how much and how compensation can be earned by an athlete?... but this does not include control over endorsing?

Tonichelle · Oct 18, 2011

Mathman said:
Evan Lysacek is not the Grand Duke of Naperville who can dabble in skating because he makes millions off the labor of his serfs.

he'd be even more attractive if he were! could you imagine him in those period piece costumes? :love:

I'm all for him being the Grand Duke (or as the mice in Cinderella would call him the Duke-Duke!)

sorcerer · Oct 18, 2011

Mathman said:
...The original ideal of amateurism was this. In earlier times the young men of the nobility wished to engage in athletic exercises without having to rub shoulders with the commoners (i.e., with those who had to work for a living). ...

I see what you mean. But AFAIK it later turned into a universal notion, which I wanted to refer to.
The amateur/professional thing will start a lengthy talk so I will limit to saying that in Japan, figure skating as competition itself is conceived as amateur by the very most of the fans, and I imagine that most of them want it to stay so.
Maybe amateurism is conceived as totally obsolete in other countries? I don't know. I am learning this now over here.

Mathman · Oct 18, 2011

Under the Olympic amateurism rules, it was strictly forbidden for athletes to accept any form of sponsorship. In the 1970s the amateurism rules were corrupted by allowing athletes to receive some endorsement money to be held in a trust fund for them until they finished with their competitive careers.

Wikipedia estimates that amateur figure skater Mao Asada made 400,000,000 yen in 2010 as a result of sponsorships and endorsement opportunities made available to her because of her success as a competitive skater.

Times change. But in practice I do not see much difference from one country to another.

CARA · Oct 18, 2011

sorcerer said:
I see what you mean. But AFAIK it later turned into a universal notion, which I wanted to refer to.
The amateur/professional thing will start a lengthy talk so I will limit to saying that in Japan, figure skating as competition itself is conceived as amateur by the very most of the fans, and I imagine that most of them want it to stay so.Maybe amateurism is conceived as totally obsolete in other countries? I don't know. I am learning this now over here.

I believe that Narumi Takahashi, Marvin Tran, and Kathy & Chris Reed belong to "Kinoshita-Kohmuten," a huge construction company that basically "subsidise" their trainings. Technically all four skaters are the company "employees" drawing salaries from that company. In reality they train full-time. In particular, Takahashi/Tran train in a foreign country. With this arrangement, they do not have to work for earning their living cost nor training fees.

I believe Miki Ando & Kozuka have the similar arrangement with Toyota.

Having been freed from financial concerns they can maintain the illusion of amature status, as they have no need to "hussle" with negotiating with appearance fees as such, but do you really think these Japanese skaters are amature in the truest sense of the word?

jcoates · Oct 18, 2011

These are good points. That sort of arrangement used to exist in the US to a wider extent, especially in the military. Many amateur and Olympic level athletes used to get essentially subsidized training while serving on active duty (draft or volunteer) in the armed forces. This was true for boxers, swimmers, fencers, biathletes, equestrians, and tennis players like Arthur Ashe (won 1st US Open while in the Army), Jack Kramer, and Stan Smith.

With the end of the draft and the creation of an all volunteer military, this practice became less common.

The idea of direct employment of athletes by corporations would likely not fly here in the US. There may even be some question about consistency with labor laws.

CoyoteChris · Oct 18, 2011

According to Forbes, Kim Yuna and American snowboarder, Shaun White, earned approximately $7.5 million USD each in 2009.

Yuna has signed with Nike, Hyundai Motors, Kookmin Bank and also had a personalized phone product called the Yuna Phone (1 million units were sold in 7 months, setting a company record). These endorsements, along with Yuna’s domination in ice skating, have made the nineteen-year-old into a millionaire.

Evan Lysacek
Power 100 rank: 82
Rank last year: Unranked
Sport: Figure Skating
Age: 25
Most recent notable achievement: 2010 Figure Skating Olympic Gold Medal
Earnings: $2.5 million
Key sponsors: FlexJet, Coca-Cola, AT&T, Vera Wang

sorcerer · Oct 19, 2011

CARA said:
...I believe Miki Ando & Kozuka have the similar arrangement with Toyota.
Having been freed from financial concerns they can maintain the illusion of amature status, as they have no need to "hussle" with negotiating with appearance fees as such, but do you really think these Japanese skaters are amature in the truest sense of the word?

JSF is known to stay out of personal actions of skaters seeking support from companies.
Yukari wasn't able to get sponsoring from any corporations.
So is Akiko (AFAIK up till now). She works part time in a rink, but now her fellow workers let her concentrate on more skating, I've heard.
Fumie had to have a press conference in order to seek for a sponsor after having spent almost all of her family money.
Toyota supports not only figure skaters but many atheletes in 20 or some various types of sports.
These supports the skaters must get on their own.
What JSF does is to recompensate for the necessary expences up to the pre-determined limit per skater, according to each skater's reinforcement rank. So this year Miki isn't in competition so she gets no reinforcement money though she hasn't lost her rank.

To your question; the skaters you named may not be amateurs in the sense written in the former Olympic amateurism rules MM mentioned. But at the same time they can't be defined as professional atheles in the sense we use the word for let's say Ichiro.
To be precise there are to be, if adopting the former Olympic rules, amateurs and semi-amateurs all mixed in the same category. I'm not sure what it's like in other countries.

I think what I've been saying would be more connected to a question like "Is each competition an amateur game?"
My point of view is that if the participants are not payed for the very participating in that game (other than the prizes), then that game is still an amateur game.
Facts like that most of the skaters at All Japan (Nationals) are purely amateurs, are primarily something else than, though related to, the above question of the competition itself.

ETA Please forgive me for not being brief, as this is not my mother tongue I havn't the ability to make it briefer.

CARA · Oct 19, 2011

Olympics no longer requires athletes to maintain amature status to be eligible, so perhaps the discussion of professional vs. amature maybe a moot point.

I think some of us reacted to the underlying presupposition that being amature is "pure" while being a pro, and having to ask for money, somehow tarnishes your image. There is nothing wrong with earning a living. Figure skating is an expensive sports. And if you "cashes on" your olympic champion status after years of hardwork, I'd say more power to you!

I would dare say that you are more honest asking for money upfront than maintaing an illusion of amature status by being on a corporate payroll even though you don't work for that company, strictly speaking.

chuckm · Oct 19, 2011

Folks, the word is AMATEUR, not amature.

Olympia · Oct 19, 2011

I agree that whether or not someone is a true amateur is no longer an issue, because the rules for the Olympics have changed. Compared to other sports, skating has both advantages and disadvantages. Skaters can make a lot of money from sponsors if they're popular and successful, much more than people who compete in obscure events such as biathlons. On the other hand, training expenses, travel, costumes, and such are far more costly for figure skaters. The ability to make money while competing explains why many champions remain in skating for a longer period nowadays. They can get all sorts of financial reward while they're still Olympic-eligible. Michelle was able to make money when she was sixteen. YuNa and Mao Asada are both well-compensated media darlings in their respective countries. Dorothy Hamill couldn't pay her parents back until she turned pro, so she retired from competition at the age of nineteen.

Interesting information on the Japanese system of financing, sorcerer. (And very well expressed! I can't imagine being that articulate in my second language, French.) It's too bad that skaters like Suzuki, Suguri, and Nakano can't get enough financing.

Does anyone know what the system is in Russia nowadays? In the old days, the Soviet Union, East Germany, and other Communist countries completely subsidized their athletes, who were amateur in name only. This is how Katarina Witt was able to stick around for two Olympic cycles and the legendary pairs skater Irina Rodnina for three. Then when the government changed, there was so little help that skaters practically had to smooth out the ice on the rinks themselves, and many skaters and coaches left to work at rinks in other countries. I think the tide has obviously turned again, but I wonder what the extent of government subsidy is these days. Since it's a national goal to excel at Sochi, I'm sure they're devoting everything possible to that end.

sorcerer · Oct 19, 2011

CARA said:
...I think some of us reacted to the underlying presupposition that being amature is "pure" while being a pro, and having to ask for money, somehow tarnishes your image. There is nothing wrong with earning a living. ...

Like I've been saying all along, it's about the competition.

Whoever...like Ichiro in professional baseball, being a pro would never tarnish one's image.
Not only earning his living is a right thing, but rather even respected for his own success in such.
So we both agree on that.

But here, when a competition is perceived as an amateur sport (by the Japanese public and in CoyoteChris' first post here only???) in terms of competition itself, and when most of the participants do not get payed for the very participation itself, then asking appearance fee as an exceptional personage doesn't help the image of that athelete.

I'm aware that Evan's mistake is more related to making his fans expect his showing up and cancelling it citing something incomprehensible, but anyways...

Violet Bliss · Oct 19, 2011

Isn't it a matter of sementics between "sponsored" and "employed"? In either case, the value offerred for an athlete's financial benefits is a good image, a higher profile, and goodwill for the company.

CARA · Oct 19, 2011

sorcerer said:
...But here, when a competition is perceived as an amateur sport (by the Japanese public and in CoyoteChris' first post here only???) in terms of competition itself, and when most of the participants do not get payed for the very participation itself, then asking appearance fee as an exceptional personage doesn't help the image of that athelete.

I guess the best remedy would be increased transparency on financial arrangement between figure skating federations and skaters. Whether it happens would be another question though.

Lysacek out of Grand Prix; at odds with USFS

jcoates

sorcerer

Bluebonnet

sorcerer

Mathman

seniorita

CoyoteChris

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

sorcerer

Mathman

CARA

jcoates

CoyoteChris

sorcerer

CARA

chuckm

Olympia

sorcerer

Violet Bliss

CARA

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