A signal, according to Callaghan

I wish he'd elaborate. I only wish I understood the behind the scenes machinations of figure skating

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/8287418.htm

Edited to add: If the message is to up the ante, there are still lots of ladies with lesser content than MK. Sasha's jump content was exactly the same. I have no doubt that Sasha can beat Michelle when both skate well, but TFB is a wonderful program that earned first place marks at worlds last year. It sounds like she skated well this year. First to fourth is quite a drop. Rafael (can't spell the last name) was pleased from reports I've read, and he doesn't sound like the type to blow sunshine up anyone's heinie. I'm officially confused.

Signal

Callaghan must want us to fill in the blanks. I'd say the ISU wants a new champ, MK to retire, or not to hold up MK. Either way, I think ISU is using MK as an example, take out the leader and everyone can see that if anyone goes over the "rules" you'll be dealt with. It is a very subtle and bizarre rule to dock on a skater. Does anyone know how many skaters have been docked for going over their time? Is this a first at the world championships? Why MK and why at the world championships? This is not her first time skating that short, so...what gives?

April, my point exactly.............42

The "Signal"

Well, it's not an Eastern Bloc thing since the skaters involved are U.S. and Japan.

It's not about the 3/3 since Sasha is in 1st.

I don't believe the judges think MK is over the hill and should retire. How did she win worlds last year, then? And everyone knows she is immensely popular.

I believe the message is Michelle needs to do the GP. That was the big difference between her, Sasha and Shizuka this year. The Powers That Be didn't mind as much in 2003 since it was a post-Olympic year. But to skip 2 years in a row is something which wasn't looked upon favorably. There is the legitimate argument, which is that Kwan was not getting program feedback from an international panel of judges. Then there is the cynical one, that the ISU is pissed off at the snub because they lose ratings when she is not there. Either way, I think she better do the GP next year.

Ogre.........then if your theory is correct, all I can say is what a nasty way to do it...........42

I agree with Richard about wanting to give Mk a signal. When Todd competed, in 1997 he was contending for the gold medal in worlds when he fell on his jump and wound up with the silver. In 1998, when he skated perfect, the judges ranked him 3rd at the Grand Prix final despite the fact that he skated well and was the same as the year before. However in their eyes, Ilia was the one to push. I think the same thing is happening now. The judges are excited by someone else and want to send a message that she's not a favorite anymore. I'm not going to get into the whole time thing, but I think that the message is that she needs to step aside.

BTW, I think Richard needs to get rid of that Kirk. She just doesn't have it.

The blanks have been filled ...

"I think they are telling her to retire," veteran U.S. coach Richard Callaghan said.

"Or maybe," he added, half in jest, "that they don't want any rich Americans in the sport."

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/8287695.htm

Ogre - I agree with you. She's got to do the GP next year ... needs to play the game. They might have overlooked it last year because maybe they felt her Oly disappointment? and/or she didn't have her sights set on 2006. Now that she's talking Turino, she better start acknowledging Speedy and the powers that be.

Show - I agree with you too ... nasty timing.

tharrtell said:

The blanks have been filled ...

"I think they are telling her to retire," veteran U.S. coach Richard Callaghan said.

"Or maybe," he added, half in jest, "that they don't want any rich Americans in the sport."

Click to expand...

What inappropriate comments.

Maybe Callaghan wants less competition for his skater and he wants Michelle to retire.

Ya know, when judges play favorites and gift the champ, everybody else screams "FOUL". Now, with the COP, it really looks like an honest effort is being made to clean up the sport. So, what is the current whine? That Michelle got penalized for violating the RULES.

Isn't that just too ironic for words???

Picture it: January 2004. A coffee shop in Zurich. Twelve skating judges meet to discuss their secret mission: to conspire against Michelle Kwan and make sure she doesn't win the title.

Uh huh. Yeah, sure. That's exactly what happened.

What's ironic is that Michelle appears to be the ONLY skater in the last two decades to have been penalized for it.......42

Apparently a rule rarely enforced in the elite levels. Now, I'm not saying that's right. In fact, I'm all for rules (I'd say more often than not I personally get screwed 'cause I'm a rule follower, but that is beside the point.), but I'm also for being consistent. To suddenly start to enforce a rule during worlds seems fishy to me.

show 42 said:

What's ironic is that Michelle appears to be the ONLY skater in the last two decades to have been penalized for it.......42

Click to expand...

Let's spell this all together:

R-E-F-O-R-M

Amen to that, RGal......... 42

tharrtell said:

To suddenly start to enforce a rule during worlds seems fishy to me.

Click to expand...

When exactly SHOULD they start enforcing all of the rules? What better time than when the entire world is watching and can appreciate the major efforts being made to R-E-F-O-R-M the sport and its image?

Well, various reports stated that Shizuka's tech marks were pretty high considering she had an underrotated combo and didn't do enough rotations on her camel spin. Ando skated well but her presentation marks seem inflated. MK, however, got stuck with a time-limit violation. Perhaps that is an easier mistake to notice.

Rgal, I do see your point, and your twin made a point in another thread saying that we never see many of the skaters in any given competition so it is possible that this deduction is taken at times. Although, the Hersh (yeah, I know he's not always the best source of info) article says it is rarely enforced.

I'm all for reform. Maybe I'm being cynical, but I don't think the ISU really cares about REFORM as much as what is good for them. Somehow, this is good for them.

Well, crap, I sound like a conspiracy theorist just like my mom! I knew I'd end up just like her.

Ogre - good point about Shizuka's spins. Not a subjective call - simple matter of counting rotations. That's a pretty cut and dry rule that doesn't appear to have been enforced.

COP, I think not

RealtorGal said:

Ya know, when judges play favorites and gift the champ, everybody else screams "FOUL". Now, with the COP, it really looks like an honest effort is being made to clean up the sport. So, what is the current whine? That Michelle got penalized for violating the RULES.

Isn't that just too ironic for words???

Picture it: January 2004. A coffee shop in Zurich. Twelve skating judges meet to discuss their secret mission: to conspire against Michelle Kwan and make sure she doesn't win the title.

Uh huh. Yeah, sure. That's exactly what happened.

Click to expand...

So I guess nameless-faceless-protected judges and this crappy incident constitutes valiant change, right... The COP gives the power to Speedy and his spin doctors. MK is not making this into a big deal and I hope all the skaters can just tune out this event.

This, however, puts US figure skating against the ISU, and that is not fair for any of the skaters. The US lady competitors welfare comes first.

Anyway, this is a bizare incident that rarely happens, so where can we find every skaters program timings? Is there an archive for anyone to challenge a time issue? There is no way to challenge the COP. A crook will find a way, so no scoring system will be fool proof. Nevertheless, my guest is this is an obvious "political" ploy to send a message to all skaters. Why? The ISU wanted a political drama. The ISU knew that team USA would challenge them. MK and all the other skaters are just being pulled into a power play. if MK did go over the time, then she should be dealt with, but really isn't this the thinnest excuse for a deduction .2? Also, in this case, even the judges are questioning the .2 deduction, did she deserve a harsh penalty? A non-judge is given total "veto" power, and bam a skater is down in fourth. Gee, I think judging improvement is a long way from Turino 2006.

Whooo, I'm just about the way this discussion turns, honestly I just don't get the whole USFSA-ISU drama, cause I can't see it. - Let's face it, if Michelle violated the time rule, it's absolutely ok that she is punished like any other skater. If she did it before - lucky girl, the jugdes didn't see it, but it doesn't deprive the judges of their right and duty to make deductions now, when they have detected this violation. Look at it: Michelle is no junior skater, she is a five time World Champion with an experienced coach and one of the most busiest choreographers in the World on her side. Actually I'd say such a mistake is incredibly stupid, if done by such a classy skater.

It's funny to read all those comments defending Michelle, cause I don't think the judges' decision has to do anything with politics, if there was a violation of rule, the judges just had to make these deductions, no matter how reputated the skater is. Remember when Plushenko did this 3rd combo under CoP - he didn't get any points for that, he lost, even though he skated technically stronger than Sandhu - and rightly so. (And there wasn't even half the drama about it ) It would be just completely unfair to make exceptions for the higher ranked skaters, if the rest of the field including much less experienced skaters have to follow the rules strictly.

Now about all those speculations of messages given to Michelle and the whole time violation thing being detected only at Worlds: I think Michelle should take herself by her own nose with this. Ok, she skated that programe before, but only at the well-paid so called "cheesefests" (btw can anybody explain to me why these competitions are called this way?), where jugdges for sure tend to be more loose towards correct ruling and U.S. nationals, where judges for sure are not really looking for mistakes of their own skaters, but very understandably are mostly looking for good performances of their own skaters which might enable them to win some medals at worlds. - (On the other hand with that it's also the USFSA judges, which can be blamed for not detecting this earlier. )
Finally you can say the reason why this violation has not been detected earlier, was due to the fact that Michelle not doing the GP-series once again. And what's the message SHE gave to the judges by this: "look, I'm a 5-time worldchampion, I don't need to show up at those events, I'll go to U.S. Nats and to Worlds to get my title back, just leave me alone with anything else." - Sorry, I'd loved to see Michelle getting her title back last year and the way she skated there and also I completely understood, why she didn't do the GP last year, but doing that twice in a row looks really kind of arrogant to me.
I don't think the judges made these deductions for the purpose of giving a message to Michelle, they just had to do so after detecting the time violation. However, I don't think they were absolutely not unlucky to do so, with Michelle not skating in the GP-series once again, cause the side effect of the whole thing is of course a bitter conclusion for Michelle: try to show your programes to the judges not only at U.S. Nats and Worlds.

Now about rules: in any sport, in any field where you rank people, you need rules on how to do this, in order to avoid discrimination. And if you have a SP & LP in figure skating you just need exactly a rule for the time of the programes, cause that's the major difference ot those parts of the competition: TIME! Can there be an excuse if these rules have been violated? NO! Cause then you would need other rules, stating excuses for violations and the framework within which violations of this rules should be allowed, which would actually mean even more rules.

Just hope Michelle will have a great skate in the free, showing what she can do, when staying within the framework of the given rules and I sincerely wish she won't do anymore similar stupid mistakes again.