GPF Men FP, Sat. 12/10 at 4:55 pm EST | Page 13 | Golden Skate

GPF Men FP, Sat. 12/10 at 4:55 pm EST

Serious Business said:
Kurt should watch more skating. More than one junior skater in men's, if I recall, used a split jump as an element directly preceding a jump last season. I definitely remember Jason Brown doing that.
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considering he still tours, I doubt he watches a lot of skating when he's not getting paid to do so. most commentators don't watch it or follow it if it isn't in front of them during something they're working on.
 
Ironically, in view of Patrick's complaints of insufficient acclaim, he would probably be more beloved if he skated cleaner (with a bit less of the fantastic difficulty that can't even be seen on TV) and lost occasionally, allowing for a genuine rivalry for people to chew on. Imagine the people new to skating who hear about this Wunderkind, and take up the trouble to see his gold medal winning performances. Don't you think they would be mightly confused?
 
skateflower said:
Well if so why did we have the 2002 Olympic scandal and the introduction to this monstrous CoP?
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Oh yeah, right, the "scandal" :laugh: I tell you, if there was any scandal at those games it was S/P being in 2nd after the short when BOTH fell!

How exactly is CoP monstrous? Rewarding skaters for each element of their skating and their execution at such is a bad thing? :unsure:
 
Becki said:
WOW and it's for transition and linking footwork....***. I am sorry, this is just so BS. 7.50 9.00 8.50 8.75 8.25 8.75 8.25 5.50 8.50
That score was dropped, correct??
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That is total B@$@%#% .... Who are give 7.5 is smoking some, who knows what. But 5.5??? That just blunt bias juding to the extreme. Some journalist should take the whole score sheet and throw it across the news. Prob some home judge, marking down so golden boy can win.
 
Congratulations to the medalists and all competitors, especially those who overcame their nemeses to different degrees today - Dai and Jeremy their quads and Yuzuru his stamina. So many well deserved standing ovations. I feel sorry for Pangtongfan's misguided friends who skipped the highlight of the event so far.

Yuzuru, Michal, and Fernandez showed their weak skating against the PCS kings. It is obvious there is no comparison in speed, smoothness, edges, and all the nuances in transitions against the other three.

Yuzuru and Fernandez showcased their amazing jumps. Bravo.

Jeremy did his quad and skated a beautiful program. Unfortunately, typical of those with inconsistent quads, he blew some of the other jumps after it.

Daisuke really brought it today with an overdue credited quad though it was flawed with -3 GOE, and then he did his thing with the rest of his program. I feel his jumps were really good today, after more than a season of poor jumping, but the performance, though excellent and done the way only he could, lacked energy and was much below what he brought on the NHK ice. The protocol confirmed my impression. His TES BV here is 4.77 points higher than at NHK, and though about 5 points lower than Chan's, his TES trails Chan's by only 0.54 because of all the GOEs. His PCS, however, was 3 points lower than that at NHK.

As for the uproar about Dai's PCS and Chan's winning the LP over him (by a point), I looked at the protocol to verify the point of contention causing all the outrage, namely judge #8. Firstly, Dai also had a judge who loved him so much that every component scores was over 9.00, while the alleged judges' pet didn't have anybody that held him in such high esteem. 4 of judge #2 component scores had to be thrown out. Now the stingy judge #8, who actually gave him a higher IN than judge #1, and an equal mark in Performance as 2 other judges, particularly didn't appreciate his Transition/Linking Footwork and Choreography. Well, the official averages without the imput of judge #8, excep for IN, do show these were Dai's weakest components today.

I know most of you who voice angry condemnation of Chan's win over Takahashi today do not care to look at the Protocol and hear COP based explanation. And the main issue is that Chan had one fall while Takahashi was "clean". Well, he had a flawed quad and Chan had two. Sounds funny but two flawed quads beat one flawed quad in a skating program. That accounted for the final difference of half a point in TES Chan had over Takahashi. They are both PCS kings, but as earlier exercises done in this board comparing the foot work of Chan and Takahashi, using his NHK LP, had most agreeing that Chan did have better SS with faster speed and better bladework. Today, he was better by half a point in PCS.

There you go, a huge one point difference between two of the world's best and the whole sport and its scoring system are called corrupt and scandalous and some are swearing off Men's competition despite it being the most exciting discipline in the sport today.

eta. Major correction: Patrick's PCS is 1.5 points higher than Dai's. With the 1 point deduction, the final whopping difference of 1.02 remains as sated.
 
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Leonardo said:
I don't know how can someone call this a sport, at least in men's figure skating. It's a complete joke. This robbery is totally ruining the excitement and any good reason we find to watch figure skating. How many times Patrick Chan needs to fall in order to lose to anybody, even to a fantastic skater like Daisuke nowadays? He can fall 1, 2, even 3 times and he ALWAYS wins, no matter how he and the others perform. And this happened SO MANY times. There's no need to make competitions, the results are already decided. They should already give all the golds to Pchiddy until Sochi . He can fall 3 times, mess up all the jumps, it doesn't matter, the judges always find a way. 87+ PCS, +2 and +3 in everthing (unless he falls), and there you go, a 170+ score. Looks like RG and the russians, but it's getting even worse.
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With golden boy, its not just some jump. The judges always give him +2, +3 GOE on his non-jumps elements, esp the spins, even if its some medicore sloppy spin. I mean look at Hanyu, he has one of the best spins in men period. Great variation, speed, center and difficult right into a spin after a jump. Are the judges telling these qualilities doesn't doesn't +2,+3 GOE like golden boy??? 0_o
 
SkateFiguring said:
There you go, a huge one point difference between two of the world's best and the whole sport and its scoring system are called corrupt and scandalous and some are swearing off Men's competition despite it being the most exciting discipline in the sport today.
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I LOVE IT!!!!! :clap: Spot on remark! :thumbsup:
 
SkateFiguring said:
There you go, a huge one point difference between two of the world's best and the whole sport and its scoring system are called corrupt and scandalous and some are swearing off Men's competition despite it being the most exciting discipline in the sport today.
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Mmm, I think Ice Dance is more exciting. I haven't seen the entire men's event (went sledding halfway through with a friend and her toddler, it was... traumatic lol) so I won't make any judgements yet against or for any skater... of the ones I saw (left as Dai was skating) I liked Fernandez most...
 
SkateFiguring said:
I know most of you who voice angry condemnation of Chan's win over Takahashi today do not care to look at the Protocol and hear COP based explanation.
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This is getting old. Time after time you make such accusations yet people specifically reference the protocol and the COP. Face it. Not everyone agrees with you. You are not more informed than a number of people on this board yet you continue to act like you are. Like I said, it is getting old. The ignore list is now coming in handy.
 
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MrScroogeMcDuck said:
This is getting old. Time after time you make such accusations yet people specifically reference the protocol and the COP. Face it. Not everyone agrees with your Chan obsession. You are not smarter or more informed than a number of people on this board yet you continue to act like you are. Like I said, it is getting old. The ignore list is now coming in handy.
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I don't need to be told I'm not smarter or more informed. Never claimed so and never try to compare personal intelligence, just facts.

The reason I said many who were angry about the result didn't care to look at Protocol and didn't like COP based explanation is that I came to the forum after the competition and read this thread to find a lot of angry protests without citing or refering to the Protocol. It was a verifiable observation. It is also a commonly expressed sentiment by some that they don't care about COP or COP based results against their preferences and opinions. I don't understand why such observations caused you such anger and disgust but of course, as you declared, you can ignore me.

eta. Modification of my observation: I found the only focus on the Protocol in this thread was about two particularly low component scores given to Dai, so I examined this issue and offered my observation from the same protocol.
 
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enlight78 said:
That is my point exacatly.He did just as much difficulty if not more as they did yet people are upset he scored about the same as they did te's. And nobody was clean. Yet people feel robbed the pratrick won
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There is no explaining logic when people really don't want to understand.

I've been reading about 17 pages of these posts on this subject, and I can separate the comments into 2 categories:
- Patrick Chan did not deserve his marks because he didn't skate clean. He shouldn't win when he falls or makes mistakes. Therefore, the only reason he won is because of politics, bad judging, etc.
- Patrick Chan didn't have a great night, but he had enough of a buffer from the SP, and the total of what he skated tonight was enough to win. It was significantly below what he would earn if he skated clean.

For all the people crying foul over Patrick's win, think about this:
- If only the people who skate clean and perfect win an event, we will have a much simpler competition. There would be no reward for trying harder things, since an error would knock one off the podium. If the goal is clean, don't try hard things. I don't think that's really what you want. It's exciting to watch skaters push the boundaries of the sport. How much angst was there on forums over skaters who have a quad and those who don't? And look how the sport is progressing in terms of overall difficulty. It was on display with so many skaters tonight.
- COP was designed to reward all sides of skating...technical elements as well as skills and artistry. It's not just a jumping contest. It's also about spins, footwork, and all the in-between skating.
- The intent of COP is to reward points for what you do. Spins can be worth almost as much or more than jumps. There's a pretty good base value on footwork, as well. You start with a base-value, and depending on how you skate, you get rewarded below, at or above that base value for elements. That's the first mark.
- The PCS portion is designed to take the elements out of the picture, and judge things like edges, difficulty in choreography, how the program is designed, speed, quality of movement, flow, how a skater moves from one element to the other, etc.

In looking at the competition tonight, Chan and Takahashi and Hanyu scored almost the same, within 0.54 points, on the technical elements. Hanyu actually scored slightly more than Takahashi on the first mark. That makes sense because Hanyu scored higher on the 4T by about 4 points. He missed the 3S, but that has much lower base value when compared with another of Dai's triples. Dai beats Hanyu by quite a few points on PCS, which is right. When I compare the score sheet with Chan's, I see all sorts of deductions. The one fall earns him -3 GOE across the board. The 4T + 2T combo earns -2's and -3's across the board, even though he didn't actually fall. The wonky 4T earns mostly -2's, a couple -1's, and even a -3. No one is gifting him anything here. The other elements, which were wonderful, earned him positive GOE's, but nothing ridiculous. He has even only two +3's for his circle step. Dai scored more than that. Dai earned a whopping 15.43 points on his 3A + 3T. Dai's 3A also scored more than Chan's. There is nothing out of sorts in the technical score card.

On the PCS marks, there were only 1.50 points separating Dai and Chan. Dai and Chan are tied on Performance and Execution. The biggest difference between them is on Transitions/Linking Footwork and Choreography/Composition. In those areas, Chan's program earns points on all the extra movements and quality, at a high rate of speed, he puts into Transitions. His choreography is exceptionally complex, and it is well spread throughout the program, not front-loaded or providing many opportunities for a "rest". On the other items, they really aren't that far apart. Chan received some 9.00's, but so did Dai. Chan received a 7.50. There were no 10's in sight. Chan's skating skills and flow and speed, and overall quality of movement is fabulous. And Dai is also judged very close. Really, on PCS, Dai and Chan are the best in the world in my opinion. There is nothing out of sorts on the PCS scoe card.


So given all this, for those continuing to stubbornly hold on to the idea that there was some great "inflation" or mis-carriage of justice, please help me understand because I'm not seeing it. Show me from the scores where Chan was gifted and others were robbed. Show me where there was bias in the judging. Just saying it is so, does not make it so.
 
SkateFiguring said:
Well, he had a flawed quad and Chan had two. Sounds funny but two flawed quads beat one flawed quad in a skating program. That accounted for the final difference of half a point in TES Chan had over Takahashi.
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Don't forget that Chan had an ugly fall on a luz whereas Takahasi had none. And the chorographic movement where Chan raised his arms in the setup leading to the luz was behind the music. Since the definition of "Interpretation" includes the subtle use of finesse to reflect the nuances of the music, I think the loss of timing and the fall itself should have prevented him from beating Dai the brilliant dancer in that department.

Both Dai and Chan had their seasonal best. Dai's performance was easier for casual fans to enjoy whereas Chan's with multiple flaws mesmerized mainly the judges and the learned audience. I think Chan will continue to be under-appreciated by the general public if he does not produce clean programs more often.
 
Tonichelle said:
considering he still tours, I doubt he watches a lot of skating when he's not getting paid to do so. most commentators don't watch it or follow it if it isn't in front of them during something they're working on.
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Then he shouldn't have said skaters nowadays aren't doing split jumps in competitive programs any more. :P I'm just picking on ol' Kurt because this is the thread for picking on Canadian male skaters with phenomenal skating abilities. ;)
 
Serious Business said:
Then he shouldn't have said skaters nowadays aren't doing split jumps in competitive programs any more. :P I'm just picking on ol' Kurt because this is the thread for picking on Canadian male skaters with phenomenal skating abilities. ;)
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I agree, that was my way of supporting what you said, while still trying to support Kurt. Because Mathman hurt my fanatical feelings by saying Kurt spoke Baloney, so I have to defend "my" Kurt.
 
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skatinginbc said:
Don't forget that Chan had an ugly fall on a luz whereas Takahasi had none. And the chorographic movement where Chan raised his arms in the setup leading to the luz was behind the music. Since the definition of "Interpretation" includes the subtle use of finesse to reflect the nuances of the music, I think the loss of timing and the fall itself should have prevented him from beating Dai the brilliant dancer in that department.

Both Dai and Chan had their seasonal best. Dai's performance was easier for casual fans to enjoy whereas Chan's with multiple flaws mesmerized mainly the judges and the learned audience. I think Chan will continue to be under-appreciated by the general public if he does not produce clean programs more often.
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This is a brilliant assessment of the situation!
 
skatinginbc said:
Don't forget that Chan had an ugly fall on a luz whereas Takahasi had none. And the chorographic movement where Chan raised his arms in the setup leading to the luz was behind the music. Since the definition of "Interpretation" includes the subtle use of finesse to reflect the nuances of the music, I think the loss of timing and the fall itself should have prevented him from beating Dai the brilliant dancer in that department.

Both Dai and Chan had their seasonal best. Dai's performance was easier for casual fans to enjoy whereas Chan's with multiple flaws mesmerized mainly the judges and the learned audience. I think Chan will continue to be under-appreciated by the general public if he does not produce clean programs more often.
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Casual fans know it's a competition. Chan won the LP by only 1 point which is probably not appreciated by casual fans as you said, but casual fans also know Chan had a big deserved lead in the SP over Takahashi who was actually 5th coming into the LP. Ending up in second speaks loudly about his LP performance.
 
Serious Business said:
this is the thread for picking on Canadian male skaters with phenomenal skating abilities.
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Chan's feeling "less Canadian" hasn't stopped people from picking on him. So it is not so much about "Canadian" as about "abilities". If you are a skater with phenomenal abilities, then get ready to be picked like a clean-plucked hen. :biggrin:
 
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