don't retire now
- Thread starter Eeyora
- Start date
It takes time to build a ladies team. What really hurt us is 1993 was the lack of time between the two Olympic games. As a result, it really hurt us when Kristi retired and Tonya didn't make the 1993 team (which maybe in hindsight they should have just held her up and put her on it b/c I saw that Nationals and while she skated poorly, she wasn't *that* bad). I see it as a detriment that MK has stayed in for so long b/c that she's taking up a spot when we could be giving two girls experience to compete to build them up for the next games. For example, in the year they held Sasha up despite Ann Patrice skating so well with a 3-3 combo. Sasha is the future and I don't disagree about holding her up and Sarah skated well but perhaps it would have been good for Ann Patrice to experience worlds. Even Tara had to get the kinks out in her debut at worlds (hosing up her SP but skating great in the LP and gaining experience in the process). I'm sure that Sarah's experience at two previous worlds helped her out tremendously in SLC while Sasha's lack of Worlds experience with SLC being her first big senior int'l event hurt her.
No I don't think MK should retire to allow someone a spot, but in teh old days when the skaters turned pro, a new crop of performers would fill their place. There are only 3 spots on the Nat'l team and if you're holding 2 spots for established performers, you're only allowing 1 new girl to have a shot (and last year no one had a shot b/c Sarah and Sasha were assured spots on the team in addition to MK). There's still a lot of respect afforded to returning competitors if they place well in the previous year's worlds despite perhaps not skating their best in Nationals they are still awarded a spot on the team even if someone skates better than them.
No I don't think MK should retire to allow someone a spot, but in teh old days when the skaters turned pro, a new crop of performers would fill their place. There are only 3 spots on the Nat'l team and if you're holding 2 spots for established performers, you're only allowing 1 new girl to have a shot (and last year no one had a shot b/c Sarah and Sasha were assured spots on the team in addition to MK). There's still a lot of respect afforded to returning competitors if they place well in the previous year's worlds despite perhaps not skating their best in Nationals they are still awarded a spot on the team even if someone skates better than them.
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2004
interesting joesitz..
that you agree she was held up. but if the judging panel were the same for both short and long then i would agree that she was still held up. my take is that after shizuka skated they knew they could rearrange the lesser podium standings however they wanted. so after going with arakawa, giving MK's sixes and even placing her first will not give her the gold so they thought they might sensationalise the whole Free by throwing out sixes. Just like for Shen and Zhao, do you think the russian judges and their alliances will give them 1st? they know full well they can throw out the sixes and judge correctly after they know T and M were going to get gold. I remember they got a 2nd place last year after the phenomenal turandot program, as he or she who gave S and Z the 2nd place thought some judges might be as unscrupulous as he to put them 2nd. So on that night after the Nutcracker if they were in control of their own destiny like Dick would say you might not see all 1's or so many 6s im sure
that you agree she was held up. but if the judging panel were the same for both short and long then i would agree that she was still held up. my take is that after shizuka skated they knew they could rearrange the lesser podium standings however they wanted. so after going with arakawa, giving MK's sixes and even placing her first will not give her the gold so they thought they might sensationalise the whole Free by throwing out sixes. Just like for Shen and Zhao, do you think the russian judges and their alliances will give them 1st? they know full well they can throw out the sixes and judge correctly after they know T and M were going to get gold. I remember they got a 2nd place last year after the phenomenal turandot program, as he or she who gave S and Z the 2nd place thought some judges might be as unscrupulous as he to put them 2nd. So on that night after the Nutcracker if they were in control of their own destiny like Dick would say you might not see all 1's or so many 6s im sure
soogar said:
Well talk about the young commer need experience. Then MK had stay out GP for two seasons. What about our young team done in GPs?
So according to you UAFSA should've send Sasha, Sarah, and AP last year to world. MK should've stay home and retire last season. Never mention it was USFSA called her a favor of SA.
Don't forget what Rusian fedration desperately put Irina on Rusian team regardless she had been sick for all season, I doubt USFSA will leave a health MK at home next year. It's your opinion that MK should retired let young skater has experience. Let's see what USFSA has to say. I think it's a fact that USFSA needs her.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
Great post, TNT! I'm with you word for word on that one! Also, I'd be thrilled if Michelle, Irina and all of the other old chicks stayed in until Turin. They still have so much to offer.
Marks are place holders including 6.0s. Michelle skated after Sasha, and by most reports and what they showed on TV, Sasha's lp was not a stellar performance, and if she received some 5.9 and 5.8 for presentation, the judges had to give some 6.0s to Michelle. What do you mean by the place holders are the ranks? You mean the ordinals? How are ordinals generated? By the marks, so marks are place holders. I don't care if the judges give MK a 5.0 for the world lp as long as relative to her SC gets a 4.9. You talk so much about MK being held up, do you disagree with the final placement that she should have the bronze? If you don't, then all the grudging about the 6.0s does not make much sense to me.
I did not see the QR, so no comment there, but from what they showed on TV, MK as not held up. Sometimes even the same judging panel can differ from QR, to SP to lp. Sometimes if they think they had overmark a skater in the QR, they may penalize them in the following SP and LP too. Actually the QR are divided into 2 groups so the QR judges likely are not the same judges for the sp and lp.
I think the judges made the right call re: MK's placement and marks in the SP and LP.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
We had a poll on this topic not too long ago.
It seemed that there were a few who thought only Michelle retire and the older Russian Ladies were ok to remain in competition.
You figure....
Joe
It seemed that there were a few who thought only Michelle retire and the older Russian Ladies were ok to remain in competition.
You figure....
Joe
Mzheng:
The USFSA doesn't necessarily think long term in anything and it wouldn't surprise me that they would go for the quick fix , ie MK securing 3 spots rather than look forward and develop new talent. The USFSA sends girls to the Grand Prix events , however how you even equate a Grand Prix event with Worlds which is a different ballgame entirely. Plus if there is a skater who does well in Grand Prix competing against 3 skaters who have had good results at worlds in the prior year, who do you think is going to make that team? The USFSA is going to put the 3 skaters who performed well at worlds on that team before someone with a great Grand Prix performance b/c they want to go with the surest bet for a team.
I think AP was robbed when she did all those jumps and I think she had a 3-3 combo yet they USFSA sent Sasha to Worlds when she didn't skate well at Nationals. I think that's really discouraging. Also MK has competed for 11 years and has had the opportunity to go to Worlds even when she skated that nightmarish performance at Nats in 1997- if she can't get the required elements to win an OGM, why not let someone else have that opportunity to compete. She's already competed in 2 games (present at 3 Olympics) and 11 worlds.
And let's not forget that even MK competed at her first 2 worlds with no medals so everyone has to start from somewhere.
The USFSA doesn't necessarily think long term in anything and it wouldn't surprise me that they would go for the quick fix , ie MK securing 3 spots rather than look forward and develop new talent. The USFSA sends girls to the Grand Prix events , however how you even equate a Grand Prix event with Worlds which is a different ballgame entirely. Plus if there is a skater who does well in Grand Prix competing against 3 skaters who have had good results at worlds in the prior year, who do you think is going to make that team? The USFSA is going to put the 3 skaters who performed well at worlds on that team before someone with a great Grand Prix performance b/c they want to go with the surest bet for a team.
I think AP was robbed when she did all those jumps and I think she had a 3-3 combo yet they USFSA sent Sasha to Worlds when she didn't skate well at Nationals. I think that's really discouraging. Also MK has competed for 11 years and has had the opportunity to go to Worlds even when she skated that nightmarish performance at Nats in 1997- if she can't get the required elements to win an OGM, why not let someone else have that opportunity to compete. She's already competed in 2 games (present at 3 Olympics) and 11 worlds.
And let's not forget that even MK competed at her first 2 worlds with no medals so everyone has to start from somewhere.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Let me clear this up. The Ladies event had the same judges in the SP and LP and the Quali had half of them in A and half in B.
I do believe some people see Ladies Figure Skating as a kiddie sport, and no one over 16 should compete, especially Americans.
What is the rush to retirement for MK? and no one else? Can anyone who feels MK should retire explain it bearing in mind that Sasha and Shizuka will be entering their 20s soon, and have been skating competitions for sometime.
Joe
I do believe some people see Ladies Figure Skating as a kiddie sport, and no one over 16 should compete, especially Americans.
What is the rush to retirement for MK? and no one else? Can anyone who feels MK should retire explain it bearing in mind that Sasha and Shizuka will be entering their 20s soon, and have been skating competitions for sometime.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
Where is this bizarre assertion that if Kwan was gone we still have enough depth to secure 3 spots? That has not historically been the case. Let's review:
94 - Kwan's first senior Worlds. There were only 2 spots for USA. What were the results?
Kwan - 8th
Bobek - fails to qualify
95 - On the strength of Kwan's sole achivement in 94, there are two spots again. The results?
Bobek - 3rd
Kwan - 4th
96 - Now we have 3 spots. The result?
Kwan - 1st
Tonya K. - 8th
Tara L - 15th
97 - 3 spots. The results?
Tara L - 1st
Kwan - 2nd
Bobek - 13th
98 - 3 spots. The result?
Kwan - 1st
Tonya K. 6th
No third entrant because Nikodinov was out of the country and could not be reached.
99 - 3 spots. The result?
Kwan - 2nd
Hughes - 7th
Nikodinov - 12
00 - 3 spots. The result?
Kwan - 1st
Hughes - 5th
Nikodinov - 9th
01 - 3 spots. The result?
Kwan - 1st
Hughes - 3rd
Nikodinov - 5th
(Our strongest threesome finish since 1991)
02 - 3 spots. The result?
Kwan - 2nd
Cohen - 4th
Kirk - withdraws due to injury
03 - 3 spots. The result?
Kwan - 1st
Cohen - 4th
Hughes - 6th
My point is that without Kwan, the hypothetical 3rd US skater getting screwed out of their chance to be at Worlds would not have likely resulted in securing as many spots as we have had over the last several seasons.
94 - Kwan's first senior Worlds. There were only 2 spots for USA. What were the results?
Kwan - 8th
Bobek - fails to qualify
95 - On the strength of Kwan's sole achivement in 94, there are two spots again. The results?
Bobek - 3rd
Kwan - 4th
96 - Now we have 3 spots. The result?
Kwan - 1st
Tonya K. - 8th
Tara L - 15th
97 - 3 spots. The results?
Tara L - 1st
Kwan - 2nd
Bobek - 13th
98 - 3 spots. The result?
Kwan - 1st
Tonya K. 6th
No third entrant because Nikodinov was out of the country and could not be reached.
99 - 3 spots. The result?
Kwan - 2nd
Hughes - 7th
Nikodinov - 12
00 - 3 spots. The result?
Kwan - 1st
Hughes - 5th
Nikodinov - 9th
01 - 3 spots. The result?
Kwan - 1st
Hughes - 3rd
Nikodinov - 5th
(Our strongest threesome finish since 1991)
02 - 3 spots. The result?
Kwan - 2nd
Cohen - 4th
Kirk - withdraws due to injury
03 - 3 spots. The result?
Kwan - 1st
Cohen - 4th
Hughes - 6th
My point is that without Kwan, the hypothetical 3rd US skater getting screwed out of their chance to be at Worlds would not have likely resulted in securing as many spots as we have had over the last several seasons.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
I thought Maria B. winning the World title at age 26 and competing at the Olympics at age 29 (?) (along with 30 year old Todd E.) would put to bed the cries for skaters past age 22 to retire!
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
RealtorGal said:I thought Maria B. winning the World title at age 26 and competing at the Olympics at age 29 (?) (along with 30 year old Todd E.) would put to bed the cries for skaters past age 22 to retire!
Praise to be! I'm not the only fan pushing eligible skaters into retirement.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
What if there were a Kwanless World
Just to flesh out Skate Sandee's point a little more. Let's try imagining a world with no Kwan in it:
The quotes are Skate Sandee's.
If the third place US skater were here instead of Kwan, US would have only 1 skater for 1995. Instead, there were 2. I think the 3rd place skater would have been Elaine Zayak, who didn't have either the flip or the lutz. However, she landed all she had at Nats. I think she would have been out of top 10 at worlds.
With no Kwan, it is possible there would still have been 3 skaters for the next year. But it is unclear how the 3rd place US lady, whom I don't remember at this point would have done.
With no Kwan, there would only have been 2 skaters the following year.
1 + 12 = 13, US just squeaks out 3 skaters. Without Kwan, Bobek finishes 12th.
Angela would have been 3rd at Nationals with no Kwan and would have gone to Worlds. We cannot know in this case how many skaters the US would have qualified in a Kwanless world. But given that Angela was 12th next year (11th with no Kwan) 5+11 = 16. Only 2 skaters go.
The two skaters would be Sarah and Angela. The result, only 2 skaters for the US in the following year.
Sarah plus Angela produce a Kwanless number of 4+8=12, so there are 3 spots for the following year.
Angela and Sarah comfortably secure 3 spots
With no Kwan, the third skater would have been Angela. It is possible that 3 spots could have been secured. Or not. It depends on whether the Angela that was at Nationals skated at Worlds. And how Angela skated at Olympics. It was only after Nationals that she injured her shoulder, so it's just impossible to tell how it would have gone.
Still 3 spots
But in 2004, in a Kwanless world, the spots are taken by Cohen, Kirk, and Corwin. Amber has been very steady, and has a 4C's medal. She might conceivably have placed top ten or bottom ten. She's never been to Worlds.
So here's the score:
With Kwan: 94 and 95, two skaters qualified
All other years, 3 skaters qualified
Without Kwan
94, only one skater qualified.
95, 02, unclear, possible 3
96, 98, 99, 04, only 2 skaters qualified
97, 00, 01, 03, 3 skaters qualified
So in a Kwanless world, in 5 years, clearly there would have been a drop in the number of skaters for the following year. (94,96,98,99,04)
In four years, there would have been no change. (97, 00, 01, 03)
In two years, 95 and 02, I won't estimate.
So in general, Kwan has not impacted the rise of young skaters. Tara and Sarah steamed right past her at Olympics and Sasha is doing very well.
The skaters that seem to be most impacted by Kwan, were not younger, but peers or older: Bobek, Kwaitkowski, Corwin, Zayak, Nikidinov, because when I look back, I find that those are the skaters that would have been filling in in a Kwanless world. Depending on any of those skaters to secure you 3 spots is very iffy, and I have given them the benefit of the doubt. In fact, I expect there would have been only 2 skaters in 95 and 02 as well.
So Michelle! Don't retire. We need you. Having 3 skaters is very helpful in a lot of ways.
dpp
Just to flesh out Skate Sandee's point a little more. Let's try imagining a world with no Kwan in it:
The quotes are Skate Sandee's.
If the third place US skater were here instead of Kwan, US would have only 1 skater for 1995. Instead, there were 2. I think the 3rd place skater would have been Elaine Zayak, who didn't have either the flip or the lutz. However, she landed all she had at Nats. I think she would have been out of top 10 at worlds.
With no Kwan, it is possible there would still have been 3 skaters for the next year. But it is unclear how the 3rd place US lady, whom I don't remember at this point would have done.
With no Kwan, there would only have been 2 skaters the following year.
1 + 12 = 13, US just squeaks out 3 skaters. Without Kwan, Bobek finishes 12th.
Angela would have been 3rd at Nationals with no Kwan and would have gone to Worlds. We cannot know in this case how many skaters the US would have qualified in a Kwanless world. But given that Angela was 12th next year (11th with no Kwan) 5+11 = 16. Only 2 skaters go.
The two skaters would be Sarah and Angela. The result, only 2 skaters for the US in the following year.
Sarah plus Angela produce a Kwanless number of 4+8=12, so there are 3 spots for the following year.
Angela and Sarah comfortably secure 3 spots
With no Kwan, the third skater would have been Angela. It is possible that 3 spots could have been secured. Or not. It depends on whether the Angela that was at Nationals skated at Worlds. And how Angela skated at Olympics. It was only after Nationals that she injured her shoulder, so it's just impossible to tell how it would have gone.
Still 3 spots
But in 2004, in a Kwanless world, the spots are taken by Cohen, Kirk, and Corwin. Amber has been very steady, and has a 4C's medal. She might conceivably have placed top ten or bottom ten. She's never been to Worlds.
So here's the score:
With Kwan: 94 and 95, two skaters qualified
All other years, 3 skaters qualified
Without Kwan
94, only one skater qualified.
95, 02, unclear, possible 3
96, 98, 99, 04, only 2 skaters qualified
97, 00, 01, 03, 3 skaters qualified
So in a Kwanless world, in 5 years, clearly there would have been a drop in the number of skaters for the following year. (94,96,98,99,04)
In four years, there would have been no change. (97, 00, 01, 03)
In two years, 95 and 02, I won't estimate.
So in general, Kwan has not impacted the rise of young skaters. Tara and Sarah steamed right past her at Olympics and Sasha is doing very well.
The skaters that seem to be most impacted by Kwan, were not younger, but peers or older: Bobek, Kwaitkowski, Corwin, Zayak, Nikidinov, because when I look back, I find that those are the skaters that would have been filling in in a Kwanless world. Depending on any of those skaters to secure you 3 spots is very iffy, and I have given them the benefit of the doubt. In fact, I expect there would have been only 2 skaters in 95 and 02 as well.
So Michelle! Don't retire. We need you. Having 3 skaters is very helpful in a lot of ways.
dpp
Last edited:
Great posts from both Skate Sandee and DORISPULASKI. So convincingly proved.
Actually I heard the talks from the rinkside moms after worlds, they have little ones in USFSA's pipeline. Seeing MK's uncertainty, they worried about if she is going to retire, they say even if she want to, USFSA couldn't afford it.
Actually I heard the talks from the rinkside moms after worlds, they have little ones in USFSA's pipeline. Seeing MK's uncertainty, they worried about if she is going to retire, they say even if she want to, USFSA couldn't afford it.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Pati said:Joe, for what its worth, Shizuka is 22. She's already over the hill, I guess :sheesh:
Pati - How dare Shizuka win a Worlds Championship at such an unheard of age. What about those poor sweet 16ers?
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
According to the "Media Guide to the Judging and Marking System," distributed to the media and available for a fee in the arena, while the judging panels are the same for the SP and LP or OD and FD -- selected from those who judged qualis or compulsories -- only 9 of those scores counted for each phase and
The only thing that is telling are the ordinals, because we don't know how the scores paired up or how many of the higher scores counted.
My theory is that the judges were chomping at the bit to give Cohen 6.0's, but when her LP was on the lifeless side, they gave them to Kwan, partly because of the .com guy, partly because some of them probably didn't want to deduct for the time violation, and partly because the 6.0's were like money burning holes in their pockets. I didn't think her presentation at Dortmund in the LP came that close to her performance in Washington, and I saw both live.
The odds are very low that the all of the same judges' scores counted for both SP and LP.
The only thing that is telling are the ordinals, because we don't know how the scores paired up or how many of the higher scores counted.
My theory is that the judges were chomping at the bit to give Cohen 6.0's, but when her LP was on the lifeless side, they gave them to Kwan, partly because of the .com guy, partly because some of them probably didn't want to deduct for the time violation, and partly because the 6.0's were like money burning holes in their pockets. I didn't think her presentation at Dortmund in the LP came that close to her performance in Washington, and I saw both live.
Cohen's FS was not only lifeless, but she made two very obvious mistakes: flutzing so badly on her opening combo that she landed the 3FZ on the wrong edge and couldn't compete the combo; bailing out on and two-footing an attempted 3S.
Not only that, but the program was very front-loaded with all the jumps in the first 3 minutes and all the spins stacked at the end. And the jump-laden portion of the program had almost no choreograpnhy.
Not only that, but the program was very front-loaded with all the jumps in the first 3 minutes and all the spins stacked at the end. And the jump-laden portion of the program had almost no choreograpnhy.
Thanks for clarifying the judges panels.
I think every competition should be judge on the merits of that competition, I am sure audience can and will compare MK's lp from worlds 2003, to her current lp and the current one may seem to lack the energy of last years, the same with Cohen's lp . SC's 2003 world lp was much better than the 04 lp. There is no way we can extract last years score to this years. Kwan received some 6.0s last year, relative to the rest of the field she was deserving, Cohe received some 5.9s for her lp for the same reason. This year both ladies lp were not as good, but relative to the rest of the field and each other I hav not problem with Kwan's 6.0s or Cohen's 5.9. Marks are place holders. If judges give Cohen 5.9 in 04 lp, they have to give a few 6.0s to Kwan.
I think every competition should be judge on the merits of that competition, I am sure audience can and will compare MK's lp from worlds 2003, to her current lp and the current one may seem to lack the energy of last years, the same with Cohen's lp . SC's 2003 world lp was much better than the 04 lp. There is no way we can extract last years score to this years. Kwan received some 6.0s last year, relative to the rest of the field she was deserving, Cohe received some 5.9s for her lp for the same reason. This year both ladies lp were not as good, but relative to the rest of the field and each other I hav not problem with Kwan's 6.0s or Cohen's 5.9. Marks are place holders. If judges give Cohen 5.9 in 04 lp, they have to give a few 6.0s to Kwan.
Last edited:
