Plushenko's health issues spring 2012

drivingmissdaisy said:

My ex-husband is a spine surgeon and he won't touch a patient who has already had spine surgery because the success rate of subsequent surgeries is extremely low. I just think it's crazy for someone who has any sort of back injury to continue doing something like quadruple jumps. I can maybe understand in some situations, such as basketball, where the players can make millions more by extending their careers a few years. But Plushy is already a legend and he won't really make much more doing shows as a 2 time gold medalist rather than just a gold medalist (which obviously is a best case scenario and somewhat unlikely if Chan continues to skate well). I hope ego or pressure from the Russian federation don't force him to make a poor decision because back injuries are so unpredictable.

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Agree. Spinal surgeries are not something to take lightly. I have two friends, A & B with this problem. Both A & B problems were work-induced. A had hers for a long time but never undergo surgery. Occasionally, the pain creeps back and can be debilitating. A has a very good and close friend who is a neurosurgeon, who told her that surgery should always always be the last resort. B already had 2 steroid injections (according to the doctor, you can only have maximum three steroid injections) and refused surgery too.

It's Plushy's choice whether to opt for or against surgery. I suppose, it all depends on how much the pain is bothering him too. I wish him all the best in his decision and as a fellow human being, will not wish less for someone who has contributed much to figure skating.

The comments on here scare me. I hope everything goes well for him; he doesn't deserve anything horrible happening to him as a result of the surgery.
His future concerns me as it seems like one that will be filled with a lot of pain. Hope he really thinks this one through.

Tonichelle said:

My mom's best friend had her back fused a year or so ago and she's so much better, so it's not all horror stories.

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This is called"anecdotal" in med literature and does not speak to the failure rate. I was a victim of a myelogram. The dye crippled me and I live in 24/7 pain and have to go thru hell to get pain medication as I can't buy it on the street like rich celebrities whose sad deaths ruin it for pain patients. The statistics are there, and no surgeon will touch me when my hstory is known. But after ww2, the great experiment called spinal surgery began, with dies that crippled and killed. Arachnoiditis is almost always the result of anything in this sacred space. hundreds of thoousands of people suffer from the experiments, and that is what most invasive procedures are when it was common to operate 2, 3 and 4 times. Surgeons do what they are trained to do and are financially rewarded to do. After 26 years, i know as much as a med school grad about way too much.

Now, as missdaisy says, her husband is not one of the surgeons that re-operates the same area. But it is a big world and many surgeons do whatever the patient , in trust will sign off on. The history of this is available for everyone who can read medical journals. But Plush has been lucky in life, lucky with knee surgeries, so far. It is up to him, and he can go anywhere in the world and afford the best. It is a dicey game at best. If I had married my surgeon with his attitude towards money, I'd be well off, not poor but likely pressured in the 80's and nineties to have a lot of surgery. Things change very slowly in medicine, despite the news about some wonder drug on the news or procedure that never makes it into clinical practice.

I never discounted what you were saying. I merely offered that it's not a 100% bad. Nothing is as good as just not getting to the point where you're faced with the decision at all.

skateluvr said:

This is called"anecdotal" in med literature and does not speak to the failure rate. I was a victim of a myelogram. The dye crippled me and I live in 24/7 pain and have to go thru hell to get pain medication as I can't buy it on the street like rich celebrities whose sad deaths ruin it for pain patients. The statistics are there, and no surgeon will touch me when my hstory is known. But after ww2, the great experiment called spinal surgery began, with dies that crippled and killed. Arachnoiditis is almost always the result of anything in this sacred space. hundreds of thoousands of people suffer from the experiments, and that is what most invasive procedures are when it was common to operate 2, 3 and 4 times. Surgeons do what they are trained to do and are financially rewarded to do. After 26 years, i know as much as a med school grad about way too much.

Now, as missdaisy says, her husband is not one of the surgeons that re-operates the same area. But it is a big world and many surgeons do whatever the patient , in trust will sign off on. The history of this is available for everyone who can read medical journals. But Plush has been lucky in life, lucky with knee surgeries, so far. It is up to him, and he can go anywhere in the world and afford the best. It is a dicey game at best. If I had married my surgeon with his attitude towards money, I'd be well off, not poor but likely pressured in the 80's and nineties to have a lot of surgery. Things change very slowly in medicine, despite the news about some wonder drug on the news or procedure that never makes it into clinical practice.

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Sorry to hear about your case, Skatelurv. It is good to share one's experience. My friend A (whom I spoke of in my earlier post) was 'pressured' to have an operation by another neurosurgeon when her unbearable pain recurred. She resisted and called her good friend the neurosurgeon who lives overseas. Her good friend insisted she should not opt for the operation but instead rest! Unfortunately, there will be unscruplous doctors who happily wield the knife for whatever reasons. This I agree. Second or perhaps third opinions are neccesary when it comes to surgeries.

Unfortunately, what spiky and skateluvr are saying is true; sometimes it is only about the money for these doctors. Additionally, to be the doctor that "cured" Plushy might also be a risk worth taking... for the doctor. In the US, cuts to Medicare (which also correlates directly with how much doctors are reimbursed by private insurance) mean surgeons earn less per procedure than they did before, so some doctors may do procedures that they might not have done in the past just to compensate for the lost income. For the doctors, they have mortgages, debts, etc that are based on a certain level of expected compensation so that does add pressure. It isn't right, but it is the reality of what goes on out there.

Plushy's competitive drive is one of the really admirable things about him , but I hope he proceeds with caution. Good luck to him whatever his decision.

I was cool but after this thread I m scared a little, because I dont think it is as simple as his choise, if he doesnt know the whole picture and the success rate from doctors, situations that you describe here. His choise will depend on what he will be advised in the hospital, and I really hope they tell him the truth even if it means he should stop skating competitively.

periperi said:

The comments on here scare me. I hope everything goes well for him; he doesn't deserve anything horrible happening to him as a result of the surgery.
His future concerns me as it seems like one that will be filled with a lot of pain. Hope he really thinks this one through.

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And who would deserve horrible. But it happens to the good and bad alike. It is called life, and if one lives long enough, horrible is often in the mix. He is choosing with much knowledge and I am sure the best of care. In the end, it is his life and health, and he isn't harming another or doing something illegal. his life is apparently rather meaningless without competitive skating. boxing is almost sure to leave you with brain injury, connected to Parkinsonism, dementia but Ali wanted to be the best time and again. I like the quote from Arnold Swarzennegger (sp?) who said. "Being number 1 in the world doesn't necessarily make a well adjusted normal person." He was trying to say that there is a Champion mentality that people will do to be the best at their sport for as long as they can be. As the greatest cyclist said, "It's not about the bike." It is about being famous, a champion, beloved, a legend, and loving competition. All this matters to Evgeni. This is the kid that left home at 10 to live 1000 miles away. I think Evgeni feels he left something on the table in Vancouver and the criticisms of his skating and his to some "gift" of the silver clearly bothered him greatly then and likely still does.

I think he feel he can win bronze, maybe silver. And I am sure he is counting on a few home court advantage points, which I feel he will get. He is a lucky guy who has the best of everything. he might have a temporary successful surgery. Sometimes a fusion will hold great for three years, then the disc above ruptures. So without knowing what he really has, and what the surgeons are planning, it is tough to know. It might be a great thing for him and keep him in the game a few years more. So without being a spinal surgeon and knowing his case, we are just speculating, but in general, spinal surgeries fail more than they succeed. He has been a big winner in life, so I hope he gets the desired result. I just don't see how he can recover from these surgeries, and do what he needs to do to have a chance of making the podium.

I know Plush is not going to go through this to gain 4th or 5th place. I hope I offend no russian, but do you suppose if he skates well, there will be plushenkoflation like we see in Chan's scores? Maybe he knows something we don't that has nothing to do with his spinal condition. That statement from Mishin makes it sound very do-able.

6.0 or CoP, there are always questionable judging every season. I just wonder how they can be confident that he can zip through these surgeries and be ready to skate like the Plush we admire? Olympic favortism is much harder to justify since Salt Lake. China in 2008 however did as they please with ladies gymnastics and clearly did not care about the fallout.

I just have a question in my mind on where this confidence is coming from? It seems more reality based to say this will be kind of miraculous to have these surgeries go perfect and recovery. It sounds odd, and I guess that is the strongest word I will use at this point, not to offend his ubers or the Russian federation, etc.

skateluvr said:

his life is apparently rather meaningless without competitive skating.

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If you say so it must be true.

I know Plush is not going to go through this to gain 4th or 5th place. I hope I offend no russian, but do you suppose if he skates well, there will be plushenkoflation like we see in Chan's scores? Maybe he knows something we don't that has nothing to do with his spinal condition. That statement from Mishin makes it sound very do-able.

6.0 or CoP, there are always questionable judging every season. I just wonder how they can be confident that he can zip through these surgeries and be ready to skate like the Plush we admire?

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Of course, Mr Iman will send a mail about Chan around Sochi time.
And Plushflation happens everywhere, not just in Russia. You missed the thread of Nationals vs International scores of skaters. He voodoos judges.

I am not saying his life is meaningless, but he is a skater who cannot seem to stay in retirement, Seniorita, would you dispute that? He is a skater, a champion, it is his life's work, and clearly, he does not find show skating or ANYTHING else so far fulfilling enough to let go.

Only Sochi ie Russia makes this even possible for him. Home country skaters often get points. And there might be cheating as there always is in the judged sports, a little help from this judge, from that ally? We look for fairness. If he can skate well enough, I'd love to see him get bronze which is the best he can hope for, especially with this news, and he will need help.

Why can he not retire happily after 3 Olympic medals, 3 WC's countless Gp, Euros, Russians? Clearly skating is EVERYTHING to him. Look at his actions, words after Vancouver. He felt quad should equal Gold medal (he's not alone of course.)

I know you and Nadine would take a bullett for this guy, but what did I say that is wrong? He still feels he must prove himself or he feels life without competition is flavorless. Look at what he is willing to do to his body to skate in Sochi? Who else has tried this -who would but Plushenko? Comp skating and winning is his passion. One way or another he will have to walk away from the ice for good someday. I like seeing him skate, but I wonder if there is another season after the surgeries.

skateluvr said:

Comp skating and winning is his passion. One way or another he will have to walk away from the ice for good someday. I like seeing him skate, but I wonder if there is another season after the surgeries.

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This is a good point. Although he loves to compete, the end of his career will come sooner or later. I imagine it is frustrating for him, especially as good as he looked at Euros, to have to deal with these surgeries. I cannot imagine a scenario in which he comes back from surgery and doesn't get hurt again from the pounding his spine takes landing jumps. A regular person, who doesn't wear a steel blade and jumps on hard ice, has a tough time recovering from this type of injury.

I wonder if watching Patrick rack up the wins and the accolades is hard for him too. He hasn't been able to rest on his laurels long before a new kid is nipping at his heels and being called the 'best ever' by some

Exactly, Daisy. I can't imagine he wants to get a bye to the Olympics or whatever they call it is Russia, and be a shadow of his former self. I think of katarine Witt who skated beautifully in 94 Olys, but her motivation was for her parents to see her live for first time on Olympic ice. She knew she'd never medal, and she felt nothing left to prove. Her tribute to Sarajevo was moving. If Evgeni could continue with this attitude no matter what, it would be better for him and his fans. I know he does not want to meet up with Chan, or maybe several others until Sochi, so the pride in result clearly matters. I think he said he would be happy with third or bronze in an interview but I don't know which competition he was referring to. Anyone have an idea where this came from?

I think it was more along the lines that he didn't have a bronze medal from the Olympics yet.

IP, do you think Plushenko, if he recovers from surgery and skates like he did at Euros has a realistic shot at the bronze in Sochi? I mean earning it, and not some political backroom deal, as I am afraid this will happen at these next Olympics in the judged sports.

skateluvr said:

IP, do you think Plushenko, if he recovers from surgery and skates like he did at Euros has a realistic shot at the bronze in Sochi? I mean earning it, and not some political backroom deal, as I am afraid this will happen at these next Olympics in the judged sports.

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.... I'm not the biggest fan of Plushenko, but if he skates like he did at Euros? Absolutely. What the guy is capable of is simply beyond my comprehension. No one competing in Sochi will likely be as mentally strong as he, and that's a significant portion of the battle right there.

ImaginaryPogue said:

.... I'm not the biggest fan of Plushenko, but if he skates like he did at Euros? Absolutely. What the guy is capable of is simply beyond my comprehension. No one competing in Sochi will likely be as mentally strong as he, and that's a significant portion of the battle right there.

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me too. I hate to even think of back surgery or what this means for his recovery, training, and future...but, that I feel Plushenko is one of the strongest male figure skating competitors (emphasis on competitor) ever, I do.

I think you might be right, Emma. He's got technique, drive, and longevity in the sport. When you take everything together, his career is pretty much unparalleled.

skateluvr said:

IP, do you think Plushenko, if he recovers from surgery and skates like he did at Euros has a realistic shot at the bronze in Sochi? I mean earning it, and not some political backroom deal, as I am afraid this will happen at these next Olympics in the judged sports.

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as opposed to any other games? I'm thinking they're all equally suspect, unfortunately.