Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan? | Page 27 | Golden Skate

Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan?

silverlake22 said:
A lot of people feel this way, but the international judges maybe don't as much. At Euros Flo and Michal both got PCS over 80 for the FS and even Tomas with that messy performance got 78+, as did Babou, skating in the penultimate group, and Artur. I like Jeremy, but the international judges have yet to hand him marks that suggest he's significantly "better" than the men in this group. It's the same thing with Adam, people talk about how he's so superior to Ross or whatnot, and Nationally he does get better marks, but internationally the judges are always giving him virtually the same PCS marks as Miner so it's clear they don't see Adam as being any better. Jeremy has gotten great PCS marks this season, even for not so great performances, but his TES is holding him back. I don't think it would be wise for him to try the 4t in the SP, and even just trying one quad on its own in the FS seems to mess with his head, so really, that is why I put him in this group rather than the group with Javi, Hanyu, and Kozuka - because they are very strong skaters on the PCS side and have mastered how to do the quads in their programs without it messing up the rest of the performance should they miss it. For Jeremy, it seems like if he goes down on the quad, the rest of the performance is nearly always nervy and his TES suffers. He needs the quad to be more consistent or learn to put it behind him if he misses it to challenge for the podium at Worlds. Now, maybe he has mastered one or both of these things in the past weeks, and if he has and delivers, he has a very good shot, but I have my doubts...
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I just compiled the Men contenders' LP scores of the season and Euro's PCS look inflated. I'm starting a new thread with the data and analyses as it is really OT in this thread. However, I would classify Abbott in an elite group with inconsistent quads with the likes of Takahashi but also as one who can't put behind a failed quad in competition, unlike Takahashi, Kozuka, and Chan. Fernandez, Hanyu, and Chan have dependable quads so they do not suffer bad effects.

Adam made one splash at a non ISU event and generated a lot of buzz and many people have held on to that but he is far from a top tier skater internationally.
 
Jeremy is elegant and has two good programs. He is very gentle to the ice. Great performance and 2 or 3 others skating poorly would have to happen for him to get bronze. I think agree again with poster who guessed 5th spot. He is not a good competitor, but his PCS marks will pulll him up. I hope CoP stops rewarding people who fall alot in the PCS category. # falls pretty much destroy what you are trying to accomplish. Whether its Alissa or Jeremy or Patrick Chan, the performance as a whole needs to be judged and all marks should go down with multiple mistakes on the jumps.
 
skateluvr said:
Jeremy is elegant and has two good programs. He is very gentle to the ice. Great performance and 2 or 3 others skating poorly would have to happen for him to get bronze. I think agree again with poster who guessed 5th spot. He is not a good competitor, but his PCS marks will pulll him up. I hope CoP stops rewarding people who fall alot in the PCS category. # falls pretty much destroy what you are trying to accomplish. Whether its Alissa or Jeremy or Patrick Chan, the performance as a whole needs to be judged and all marks should go down with multiple mistakes on the jumps.
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You forgot Takahashi.;) Or Takahashi never got held in PCS after multiple falls?!
 
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Bluebonnet, I suspect Takahashi has had such a skate and he too should not get high pcs marks despite his superior skating skills. Chan is of course the poster boy for CoP judging people feel needs to be changed. But you are right, a skate will three jump mistakes, fall, step out, hand down disrupt the flow. Sasha Cohen did every element better than most other skaters, including Michelle, but she rarely won gold because the scoring system did not allow it. There may be changes afoot that will address this. I just mentioned those who came to mind as having beautiful skating skills but often failing in the jumps, by failing I mean a variety of errors, not just outright splats.

I love Daisuke the skater and I find him an appealing and humble skater despite being Japan's first WC and an olympic bronze medalist. That said, when Patrick is landing his jumps, he is the best currently. I can see why they go gaga at his speed out of nowhere and the fast feet. He is the heir to Canada's greta male skaters, particularly Kurt. A clean Chan performance is a thing of beauty. I am not down on Pat, nor do I always prefer Dai. Can you post a youtube performance where Dai fell 3 times, or badly messed up 3 jumping passes, so we can see his scores? Thank you.
 
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Well, the fall penalty was applied to Kozuka. He received his lowest PCS of the season, 73.38 with one fall vs Takahashi's 86.90 with 3.
 
Blue- I'm old, wink wink, so memory is not like yours, but I thought you were referring to an international skate where he was up against Chan, since that's the crux of the thread. Japanese Nationals and any nationals are a lovefest for skaters like Dai. I think Hanyu has yet to have such finesse to compete with Dai, but I think next year, hanyu will be getting higher scores as I said earlier in all non jumps elements. If Dai doesn't skate well at worlds, I think maybe (I'm not Japanese and don't read in Japanese) JSF will score him over Dai making him Japan's number 1 skater. Actually, I see this happeneing if Dai does not skate well, and score close to Chan. I think he can only expect the silver. It is how many points he will lose by to Chan that will get JSF to think about promoting hanyu, who is liklier to podium at Sochi than Dai. I'm not sure how the whole respect thing works with JSf, so I just speculate here. I will watch those skates tomorrow. I did not watch them last year. The problem with not seeing these competitions as they used to be televiesed in USA is that you watch the top skates (only ) on Youtube.

I tend to remember NA podiums than Japan. But next year, Hanyu will get the scores he deserves, in Japan and international comps. or closer, as he is THE ONE with OGM chance. I see Chan, Hanyu as most clear Sochi podium threats should they be healthy. Bronze I could never even guess at. Dai's sun is going down, i feel. he was great, still is, but age is against him.
 
skateluvr said:
Blue- I'm old, wink wink, so memory is not like yours, but I thought you were referring to an international skate where he was up against Chan, since that's the crux of the thread. Japanese Nationals and any nationals are a lovefest for skaters like Dai. I think Hanyu has yet to have such finesse to compete with Dai, but I think next year, hanyu will be getting higher scores as I said earlier in all non jumps elements. If Dai doesn't skate well at worlds, I think maybe (I'm not Japanese and don't read in Japanese) JSF will score him over Dai making him Japan's number 1 skater. Actually, I see this happeneing if Dai does not skate well, and score close to Chan. I think he can only expect the silver. It is how many points he will lose by to Chan that will get JSF to think about promoting hanyu, who is liklier to podium at Sochi than Dai. I'm not sure how the whole respect thing works with JSf, so I just speculate here. I will watch those skates tomorrow. I did not watch them last year. The problem with not seeing these competitions as they used to be televiesed in USA is that you watch the top skates (only ) on Youtube.

I tend to remember NA podiums than Japan. But next year, Hanyu will get the scores he deserves, in Japan and international comps. or closer, as he is THE ONE with OGM chance. I see Chan, Hanyu as most clear Sochi podium threats should they be healthy. Bronze I could never even guess at. Dai's sun is going down, i feel. he was great, still is, but age is against him.
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Well, regardless whether it's Japanese Nationals or it's international competitions, the point is Takahashi was the one who was held up by PCS most of the time. In fact, according to SF's compilation for this season here http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?36589-LP-Scores-of-Men-contending-at-Worlds-2012 , Patrick cannot even be called PCS skater given that his TES and PCS were usually so close (except one) and sometimes his PCS were lower than TES even at Canadian Nationals where he got over 200 in LP and 300 in total. His PCS were 5.47 points lower than TES in SP and 5.61 points lower than TES in LP.

It has seemed being established that PCS is used as a place holder like in 6.0. Patrick was rarely held by PCS unreasonably this season except probably at TEB where I personally have no objection for his gold finish because the second place was Nan Song who was clearly artistically not in Patrick's league.
 
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Bluebonnet said:
Well, regardless whether it's Japanese Nationals or it's international competitions, the point is Takahashi was the one who was held up by PCS most of the time. In fact, according to SF's compilation for this season here http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?36589-LP-Scores-of-Men-contending-at-Worlds-2012 , Patrick cannot even be called PCS skater given that his TES and PCS were usually so close (except one) and sometimes his PCS were lower than TES even at Canadian Nationals where he got over 200 in LP and 300 in total. His PCS were 5.47 points lower than TES in SP and 5.61 points lower than TES in LP.

It has seemed being established that PCS is used as a place holder like in 6.0. Patrick was rarely held by PCS unreasonably this season except probably at TEB where I personally have no objection for his gold finish because the second place was Nan Song who was clearly artistically not in Patrick's league.
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National results are more often than not rather sketchy. There's a reason why Nationals scores don't count towards the official SB and PB scores for skaters. But I do agree that Takahashi's marks were, ahem, handled with kid gloves for his Nationals LP. I highly doubt that he would receive such scores internationally.

What I do not quite understand is how this proves your assertion that "Takahashi was the one who was held up by PCS most of the time." Takahashi has averaged in the 8-range of PCS the entire season, if you think he's held up by PCS, does that mean you think he deserves lower? If so, where would you place him in terms of PCS? Moreover, I'm not sure how a close numerical relationship between TES and PCS somehow means that a skater's PCS is totally deserved and means that he/she was not held up (or down) on the PCS mark. A skater can rack up huge TES by landing numerous quads, high-scoring triples, and level four elements, but this doesn't automatically mean that he deserves high PCS to match the TES. After all, the skater can mostly be doing two-foot skating, with bad choreography and zero emotion or performance skills while landing those high-octane jumps. Or conversely, a skater may not have a quad or a triple axel, but he has strong basic skating skills, with excellent choreography, lots of transitions and great performance skills. In this case, high PCS should surely be paired with lower TES. Given the current structure of CoP scoring, don't you think that for some skaters, a gap between TES and PCS is definitely merited? Just because the skater's PCS and TES are close doesn't mean it's right, just as a significant gap betwen PCS and TES doesn't automatically mean that a skater is held up or held down.
 
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"Being held up" was a term often used to insinuate that Patrick was given high PCS to compensate for his low TES. The fact is his has the highest TES and his PCS are on par with or lower than his TES.

I happen to think most high PCS are deserved and the recipients are often my favorites. But if someone insists on saying Patrick is being held up by judges with high PCS, they should be made aware of the truth that it's some other beloved skaters who have consistently much higher PCS than TES, especially when they fall multiple times. Now these fans don't like the term so much.
 
Call me crazy, I actually find that Chan's PCS is too low in 4CC. It's great to see him continue to improve on both PCS and TES.
 
evangeline said:
National results are more often than not rather sketchy. There's a reason why Nationals scores don't count towards the official SB and PB scores for skaters. But I do agree that Takahashi's marks were, ahem, handled with kid gloves for his Nationals LP. I highly doubt that he would receive such scores internationally.

What I do not quite understand is how this proves your assertion that "Takahashi was the one who was held up by PCS most of the time." Takahashi has averaged in the 8-range of PCS the entire season, if you think he's held up by PCS, does that mean you think he deserves lower? If so, where would you place him in terms of PCS? Moreover, I'm not sure how a close numerical relationship between TES and PCS somehow means that a skater's PCS is totally deserved and means that he/she was not held up (or down) on the PCS mark. A skater can rack up huge TES by landing numerous quads, high-scoring triples, and level four elements, but this doesn't automatically mean that he deserves high PCS to match the TES. After all, the skater can mostly be doing two-foot skating, with bad choreography and zero emotion or performance skills while landing those high-octane jumps. Or conversely, a skater may not have a quad or a triple axel, but he has strong basic skating skills, with excellent choreography, lots of transitions and great performance skills. In this case, high PCS should surely be paired with lower TES. Given the current structure of CoP scoring, don't you think that for some skaters, a gap between TES and PCS is definitely merited? Just because the skater's PCS and TES are close doesn't mean it's right, just as a significant gap betwen PCS and TES doesn't automatically mean that a skater is held up or held down.
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Well, I knew that I might have some explanation to do as soon as I posted my last post.:p I actually have no objection on your take in this post. I didn't mean to say that Takahashi was wrongfully held up in PCS other than in Japanese Nationals in which he should have been placed in the third in PCS. Internationally, Takahashi was held up by PCS because more than half of the score he earned were often from PCS, not from TES. In contrast to people saying Patrick was held up by PCS, I merely pointed out that Patrick earned his scores mainly from his TES, not PCS. In the meantime, I strongly believe that Patrick was as entitled as Takahashi for the PCS he has earned in the competitions this season.

TES is like hardware and PCS is like software because TES is more objective and PCS is more subjective. I don't think there was anything wrong to say that one was held up by PCS. Patrick's TEB score was also held up by PCS (correctly though to place him in the right place).
 
blainechan said:
Call me crazy, I actually find that Chan's PCS is too low in 4CC. It's great to see him continue to improve on both PCS and TES.
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Patrick indicated earlier his goals this season were to improve his artistry, his skating skills, spins, etc., basically all aspect of his skating. :) As it is, he didn't add another quad but all aspects of his program components are noticeably improved, which would have been unbelievable to me last year. Who would have thought his edges would be even deeper and his speed even faster with seemingly no effort? The way he flows over the ice is such beauty. And he has a strong and consistent 3A now. So it has been yet another year of raising the bar for himself and every skater. He keeps widening the gap even as his rivals keep chasing to close it.
 
SkateFiguring said:
Patrick indicated earlier his goals this season were to improve his artistry, his skating skills, spins, etc., basically all aspect of his skating. :) As it is, he didn't add another quad but all aspects of his program components are noticeably improved, which would have been unbelievable to me last year. Who would have thought his edges would be even deeper and his speed even faster with seemingly no effort? The way he flows over the ice is such beauty. And he has a strong and consistent 3A now. So it has been yet another year of raising the bar for himself and every skater. He keeps widening the gap even as his rivals keep chasing to close it.
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Yup, he has such wide gap in the score because of all his skating qualities. It's not just speed, it's effortless speed. It's not just edges, it's deep edges. It's not just great skating skill, it's great skating skill with full control of the blades. It's not just the jumps, but jumps with transition entrance and flow.
 That's why he got high scores. People who complain that his scores were inflated have failed or refused to see the quality of his skate.
 
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Bumping this thread up for a couple of reasons, we can discuss did Dai close the gap on Patrick, or maybe it should read did Hanyu close the gap on both Patrick and Dai?

Also isn't there supposed to be a prize for the person who writes the last post in this thread? ;)
 
Hany has caught up with Daisuke, Daisuke has shorten the gap but still needs another quad ,to increase his speed, pick music that has change of texture so it is easier for judges to pick up on his interpetations, Chan often skates to the beat of his music, and put transitions and jumps at character points of the music. If Daisuke team did the same thing, I am sure his PC's will inrease to 9's.
 
demarinis5 said:
Bumping this thread up for a couple of reasons, we can discuss did Dai close the gap on Patrick, or maybe it should read did Hanyu close the gap on both Patrick and Dai?

Also isn't there supposed to be a prize for the person who writes the last post in this thread? ;)
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I think Dai has closed up the gap between himself and Patrick a little bit by having quad in both SP and LP. But most significantly, Patrick has lost his BV to make the bar lower, not by planning, but by mistakes. Therefore, the same low BV tends not to be re-occuring. Even though there are so many things going on, it does seem that Patrick has gotten a one-fall cushion from the second best in the world like some people said before. I think the only way for any skaters, including Takahashi, to beat Patrick is to increase technical contents, in the meantime, keep the competitive PCS.

As of your second question, what was the prize then? I thought it was who posted the last, whose favorite skater would win.:p
 
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Bluebonnet said:
I think Dai has closed up the gap between himself and Patrick a little bit by having quad in both SP and LP. But most significantly, Patrick has lost his BV to make the bar lower, not by planning, but by mistakes. Therefore, the same low BV tends not to be re-accuring. Even though there are so many things going on, it does seem that Patrick has gotten a one-fall cushion from the second best in the world like some people said before. I think the only way for any skaters, including Takahashi, to beat Patrick is to increase technical contents, in the meantime, keep the competitive PCS.

As of your second question, what was the prize then? I thought it was who posted the last, whose favorite skater would win.:p
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I think it's a two-fall cushion. Patrick's mistakes in LP were equivalent to two falls. And the two point lead of his LP just cancels out Dai's mistakes in his LP.
 
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This delusional thread is still going on (the NO rivalry between Chan and Takahashi, where it has already been established Chan could skate half the program on his rear and still win over an already peaked Dai even skating his best). Many of you have too much time on your hands.
 
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