"Tatiana Tarasova outraged at refereeing of the World Championship of Figure Skating"

romanoff81 · Apr 18, 2012

She is entitled to her own opinion i think she is pissed that V&M were able to win over the european judges with a very broadway american type of program something not even Torvill and Dean could do in 1994. Not everyone agrees both Krylova and Zhulin felt V&M deserved it as did the Italian Commentators anyway it was not close in the end V&M beat them on TES the three times they faced they had the more difficult program.

doctor2014 · Apr 18, 2012

Tarasova: Takahashi [otkatal] simply best program in his life. It has phenomenal program and the unique technology of glide and rotation.

I agree with Tat that Daisuke’s program is phenomenal, but what does "unique technology of… rotation" mean in that sentence? Does it refer to rotation of jumps? So Tat thinks that one of Daisuke’s biggest merits is his unique jumping technique that he rotates marvellously in the air? Well, I really like Daisuke, but I wouldn’t say he has best jumping techique, especially compared to Patrick and Hanyu. Daisuke himself also admitted his weakness is quad and he’s going to work on it. There are many other beautiful things about Daisuke’s skating, and one can make a long list of them. I’m just not sure why Tat emphasizes his “rotation.”

Tarasova: But Joubert literally rose from the ashes, such things must be also evaluated. But completely young person from Japan Yuzuru Hanyu could still stand in the fourth place, because Joubert did everything.

So Tat thinks: “Joubert didn’t do well for the last 2 years and he finally ‘rose from the ashes’ in Nice. Good for him and when scoring him the judges should not have just looked at his performance on March 31 but should’ve also evaluated his ‘rising from the ashes,’ so he should’ve podiumed. OTOH, this ‘completely young person from Japan’ whom I hardly know ‘could still stand in the fourth place.’ In other words, this kid is still young and he’s a complete stranger to me, so the judges should’ve made him wait his turn. How this kid skated on that particular night was irrelevant as long as Joubert gave everything Joubert had.”

Tat and Joubert have been good friends for quite some years, so she thinks her friend Joubert’s “rising from the ashes” deserves some extra points. This is just her personal bias. She doesn’t even bother to compare what Joubert did and what Hanyu did on that particular night to justify her opinion. “Rising from the ashes” and home advantage already helped Joubert to be overscored on PCS, but Tat doesn’t bother to take a look at the huge 12.82-point gap between their TESs.

Bluebonnet · Apr 18, 2012

Tarasova also thought that Frank Carroll should have slipped a bottle of Vodka to the judges under the table before 1998 Olympics for Michelle Kwan.

antmanb · Apr 18, 2012

Bluebonnet said:
Tarasova also thought that Frank Carroll should have slipped a bottle of Vodka to the judges under the table before 1998 Olympics for Michelle Kwan.

Tarasova may or may not have stolen that bottle and drunk it herself!

all that · Apr 18, 2012

dorispulaski said:
On the complaints of politicking, it is interesting that she is complaining on behalf of Takahashi, Davis & White, and Joubert, not about the scores of Russian ice dancers and men's competitors.

With ice dance, of course she wouldn't be complaining about I/K's scores. She needs to complain about V/M and the PCS because she's desperate to change the PCS judging to something that will favor I/K by Sochi. See Alla's comments about how the present judging system does not work well for Russian teams.

I don't follow the men's discipline enough to comment about it.

ETA: You know, if PCS judging does change, D/W stand to get hurt by it as much as, if not more than, V/M. If this swing happens *because of politiks*, D/W will get dropped for the same reason the swing happens.

emdee · Apr 18, 2012

Disagree with Doris about Tat's politiking. She was doing this IMO in the entire article which I read in translation. She is the consummate politician.

Dragonlady · Apr 18, 2012

all that said:
With ice dance, of course she wouldn't be complaining about I/K's scores. She needs to complain about V/M and the PCS because she's desperate to change the PCS judging to something that will favor I/K by Sochi. See Alla's comments about how the present judging system does not work well for Russian teams.

It worked well enough for Dom/Shabs.

Perhaps what TT should be looking at is the dreadful packaging of the current Russian teams. B&S have programs straight out of the 1980’s and their technique is suspect. I&K have work ethic issues, and he is not a good match for her. They will not be able to compete against the top North American teams unless he improves and again, they get better programs.

The belief that it’s all politiks as usual may mean that the Russian skaters will not work on their shortcomings, thinking their federation can politik a medal for them.

all that · Apr 18, 2012

Dragonlady said:
It worked well enough for Dom/Shabs.

Perhaps what TT should be looking at is the dreadful packaging of the current Russian teams. B&S have programs straight out of the 1980’s and their technique is suspect. I&K have work ethic issues, and he is not a good match for her. They will not be able to compete against the top North American teams unless he improves and again, they get better programs.

The belief that it’s all politiks as usual may mean that the Russian skaters will not work on their shortcomings, thinking their federation can politik a medal for them.

To me, it looked like Alla was saying that Russians don't have the time, the proper facilities/resources, nor teams that have been together forever, to get to the state of skating V/M are at right now. Changing the PCS weights to things that can be achieved more quickly, such as rewarding fast skating over proper body positioning, would help get teams like I/K up faster. Doing it the way V/M did it would mean no medals in Sochi.

bsfan · Apr 18, 2012

colleen o'neill said:
Daisuke's skate was the most thrilling for me ,and I would have been very happy to see him win.

But you'll have to excuse me if I harbour something of a suspicion that equally, if not more important in her noble indignation, is the ridiculous point she tries to make about I/K. They've long deserved to be third ? ( if this translation is to be trusted )..No. I would not be surprised if this was the real thrust behind her efforts. Elena is a beautiful girl, they are talented ... but they don't make a convincing couple to me ( and I'm not referring to the idea of romance between them ) There is no sense of togetherness. They may achieve that yet, but let them do it first . There are no marks awarded for promise.

What I understand from the previous post is that TT thought Russian skating fed didn't prepare( train ) I/K enough. I/K's talent has not been developed. Otherwise they would have been on podium. I don't feel that TT meant I/K should have been on podium with their current status.

dorispulaski · Apr 18, 2012

Yes, that's how I understood it. And that she blames Alla S. for everything that has happened to Russian ice dancing in the past 10 years, rather than blaming politicking.

She feels a properly coached I&K could be winning the bronze by now. Who knows? Maybe they should have been sent to S&Z

However, that would require an I&K that would actually either work hard or have been coached or pushed to work hard, on the pattern dance parts of their SD's. Both their Golden waltz and rhumba were kind of subpar for the last 2 seasons. It should be remembered that they are very young. Elena is not yet 18, and as early as when they won Jr. Worlds, already people were talking like they were going to win gold in Sochi. That is a heavy burden to land on the shoulders of a young teen, particularly when the burden is as huge as the history of gold medals in Russian ice dancing.

TAT and everyone else should cut them some slack. They are talented kids.

Dragonlady · Apr 18, 2012

I always thought that the hype for I&K to win gold in Socchi was way premature especially because it was based on the success of V&M in Vancouver. The Canadians did it and so can we, we have the team. But V&M had already been skating together for 9 years when they won Jr. Worlds which gave them a huge head start over a team like I&K which had been together less than 2 years when they Jr. Worlds.

What also helped V&M was that all of the top teams from 2006 were gone except Dom/Shabs who were hobbled by his knee problems, and F&S who had never made the podium prior to 2010 Worlds. I&K will have to contend with the teams who finished 1st and 2nd in Vancouver, P&B and W&P in order to make the podium. P&B have shown tremendous improvement since they went to C&K and W&P are also coming on strong. Both teams have been together longer, and are technically stronger than I&K.

And last but not least, we get back to packaging. I’m not impressed with the choreography Morosov has given I&K. The phrase “hackneyed” comes to mind.

As for Ally S., it was her idea to send Dom/Shabs to Linichuk and she was publically supportive of Linichuk’s programs for D&S, including the dreadful aboriginal program. TT thinks that Ally S. was blinded by her friendship with Linichuk. I remember one of the Russian posters from SkateFans who was at the test skate where their Olympic programs were introduced saying that TT and her group were aghast at those programs but no one could say anything to Piseev because his wife was totally on board with Linichuk’s vision and saying they were going to bring home the gold.

gmyers · Apr 18, 2012

Obivously I/K need to leave Russia and that whole environment if they want to do well. The same is true for any Russian team. They don't know what they think is good is crap. All their coaches need to be trained by S/Z and K/C. Isn't Gorshkov going to be learning from S/Z? Even being in charge of Ice Dance and getting the straps legalized for D/S could not get them higher than bronze in Vancouver. That was a tremendous accomplishment but everything needs to be changed.

gmyers · Apr 18, 2012

dorispulaski said:
Yes, that's how I understood it. And that she blames Alla S. for everything that has happened to Russian ice dancing in the past 10 years, rather than blaming politicking.

She feels a properly coached I&K could be winning the bronze by now. Who knows? Maybe they should have been sent to S&Z

However, that would require an I&K that would actually either work hard or have been coached or pushed to work hard, on the pattern dance parts of their SD's. Both their Golden waltz and rhumba were kind of subpar for the last 2 seasons. It should be remembered that they are very young. Elena is not yet 18, and as early as when they won Jr. Worlds, already people were talking like they were going to win gold in Sochi. That is a heavy burden to land on the shoulders of a young teen, particularly when the burden is as huge as the history of gold medals in Russian ice dancing.

TAT and everyone else should cut them some slack. They are talented kids.

They aren't too young to medal - Shibutani's have a world bronze and so should I/K but they're in the Russian Ice Dance catastrophe

skatinginbc · Apr 18, 2012

Joubert:
Performance: 8.00 7.75 8.75 8.25 8.25 8.50 8.50 9.00 7.75 (Untrimmed mean = 8.31, median = 8.25)
Choreography: 8.00 7.75 8.50 8.50 8.00 8.25 8.50 9.25 8.25 (Untrimmed mean = 8.33, median = 8.25)
Interpretation: 8.25 8.00 8.50 8.50 8.50 8.50 8.50 9.50 8.00 (Untrimmed mean = 8.47, median = 8.50)
Mean total = 25.10, Median total = 25.00

Hanyu:
Performance:7.75 9.00 8.75 9.00 8.25 8.25 7.50 8.75 8.00 (Untrimmed mean = 8.36, median = 8.25)
Choreography: 7.50 8.50 8.50 9.00 8.25 8.00 7.75 8.75 8.25 (Untrimmed mean = 8.28, median = 8.25)
Interpretation: 7.75 9.50 8.50 9.25 8.25 8.25 7.50 8.75 8.25 (Untrimmed mean = 8.44, median = 8.25)
Mean total = 25.08, Median total = 24.75

As both estimates of central tendency slightly favored Joubert presentation-wise, I can see why Tarasova felt Joubert had a better performance that day.

Bluebonnet · Apr 18, 2012

Tarasova likes Joubert so much. Joubert is like Yagudin The Second to her. She surported him whenever it's possible. I think her opinions are a little too much more emotional than rational. I wouldn't take them too seriously even though I love her.

phaeljones · Apr 18, 2012

I remember the days when there was real funny stuff with the scoring. For those of you not around, it was a lot like the general elections today in Russia. Thank goodness those days are gone and I hope that they are gone for good. Presently, I do not follow dance competition, but I do closely follow the Men's. I do think that Joubert skated cleanly and well, but Hanyu on that day (and I have a sense that he will get better) was in a different and better league. That is only my opinion, but I think that the judges' scores are defendable for their third and fourth placements. Watching some of the other competitions, especially the event in Montreal, Hanyu seemed to be underscored, but I only mention that here because I get the sense that this kid is not a one hit wonder and deserves more respect than is shown by these very public remarks made by Tarasova. There will be placements that each of us will disagree with, but as long as they are made in good faith and without prejudice, and at least are not so far out of the realm to be unsupportable, we should accept them without being publicly angry. Regardless of the placements, however, what did come out the men's competition was an indication that the 2014 Olympics has the potential to have one of the best fields for men's skating in a long time. All of the top four skaters are still improving and the results appear to have been inspiring rather than dispiriting to them all. And if there is not a better indication that the scoring at least had some merit, I don't know what it could be.

Violet Bliss · Apr 18, 2012

Welcome phaeljones. I agree much with your level headed OP. :thumbsup:

It is true that each of the top four Men has expressed their acceptance and gladness of their placement which represented their season's goal and improvements in their targeted aspects of skating.

Mathman · Apr 18, 2012

skatinginbc said:
Joubert interpretation: 8.25 8.00 8.50 8.50 8.50 8.50 8.50 9.50 8.00 (median = 8.50)

The median is a more subtle statistic than it is given credit for. If we assume that these data represent measurement along a continuum, then rounded to the nearest .25 point, we probably should handle it a little differently in the case where the median class has more than one datum. The most convincing way to see this is to draw a histogram. We want 50% of the data to be above the median and 50% below.

8.00 8.00 8.25 8.50 8.50 8.50 8.50 8.50 9.50

The median is the 8.50 that is bolded, not the 8.50 that is a little less than that one or the three that are a little bigger. The class boundaries for the five 8.50s are 8.375 to 8.625. Since three numbers are below 8.375 we need 1.5 data points to make 4.5 (half). 1.5/5 = .3. So we need to split the 8.5 class, not down the middle, but in the ratio of .3 to .7.

Median = 8.375+.3x,25 = 8.45

Check: 8.625-.7x.25 = 8.45

So Joubert's median for Interpretation is 8.45.

Hanyu's median for Interpretation , by this method, is 8.125+.25x(2.5/3) = 8.33.

This takes into account the fact that Hanyu had three data points in his median class of 8.25.

skatinginbc said:
Median total

Adding medians is slippery sands. Better, if the are many categories, to say, One skater got a higher median than the other in four out of five components, or whatever. The old problem again, are we counting or measuring, Cop or ordinals.

Even the trimmed mean suffers a little in this regard (what exactly do we get when to add them?) compared to the mean over all judges. Speaking of the trimmed mean, that 9.50 that Joubert got for interpretation stands out like a sore thumb. It is 2.34 standard deviations above the mean. Was there a French Judge on the panel?

I think Skatefiguring had a point when he observed that Hanyu was the beneficiary of trimming.

Anyway, all of these numbers are so close together I don't think any conclusion can be drawn. Mrs. T. liked Joubert. OK. So did I in 2008, but what do I know?

Boeing787 · Apr 18, 2012

Just remember only the judges opinion counts, folks (including you Madame Tarasova)!

Mathman · Apr 18, 2012

Welcome, Phaeljones; thanks for joining us.Post often, post long! :yes:

"Tatiana Tarasova outraged at refereeing of the World Championship of Figure Skating"

romanoff81

Match Penalty

doctor2014

Bluebonnet

antmanb

all that

emdee

Dragonlady

all that

bsfan

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Dragonlady

gmyers

gmyers

skatinginbc

Bluebonnet

phaeljones

Violet Bliss

Mathman

Boeing787

Mathman

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