Men's and Ladies' Gymnastics

Not to argue against you, Bruin714, but to me, in a sport where almost everyone looks like a child, and no one does floor routines that really express the music (they have no time--they're always running at top speed or flipping themselves like pancakes), I didn't notice that one athlete was any more or less juniorish than another. Certainly Komova has some elegance on the floor, but no one is a Joannie Rochette or YuNa Kim.

But as for the judging system, I'm not sure I've ever understood why one gymnast wins and another doesn't. The points differences are often even tinier than the athletes. I'm just happy when "my" gymnast wins and disappointed when he/she doesn't. Last night, I think I would have been happy either way, but I can't deny that I'm hugely thrilled that Gabby won.

Mathman said:

I don't think there is any way in the present scoring system to take things like that into account. Is that right? As I understand it, the only thing that counts is the difficulty of the tricks you attempt, and then there are deductions for mistakes. (?)

For the once-every=four-years fan, I think that gymnastics has the same problem as figure skating does. It is not possible for the audience to know why the winner won.

In this contest, it came down to the last floor routine by Komova. The announcer said something like, she needs a 15.385 to win. She performed perfectly. Did her routine deserve a 15.3 (she lost) or a 15.4 (she won)? There is no way for a casual fan to have an opinion, no matter how much that fan may like one performance or the other.

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I think the scoring is generally easier to understand in gymnastics vs skating. At least with gymnastics, they state what the highest possible value is and then deduct points. It also seems like there is a collaborative review of the faults since the scores take longer when there are more issues to review and they use video review a lot. The NBC commentator has pointed out bent knees in the air, legs that aren't held close together in the air. All these little details that less experienced viewers don't see except in slo-mo. All we really notice is how hard it seems, amplitude and speed and the landing. Overall, I think it's easier to gain an overall understanding of gymnastics scoring vs skating. Total points from all apparatus wins - that's the only thing the two scoring systems have in common IMHO.

Olympia said:

Not to argue against you, Bruin714, but to me, in a sport where almost everyone looks like a child, and no one does floor routines that really express the music (they have no time--they're always running at top speed or flipping themselves like pancakes), I didn't notice that one athlete was any more or less juniorish than another. Certainly Komova has some elegance on the floor, but no one is a Joannie Rochette or YuNa Kim.

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I am actually not in love with Komova's routine. Her teammates are actually more highly regarded on floor, although obviously Komova's changing that. Here's Russia's Ksensia Afansyeva. She's the reigning world champ on floor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkyZFma8e_A

And I can easily see the judges throwing Russia a bone and rewarded Afansyeva gold if she as a little more difficulty there, just like they did at worlds.

One thing that you can notice, though, is what the base value of the routines are:

Scores are here:

http://www.london2012.com/gymnastics-artistic/event/women-all-around/index.html

Difficulty scores on floor. The difficult is what was actually performed, not what was planned:
Raisman 6.3 (this is with her hardest trick replaced with an easier one)
Douglas 6.1
Komova 6.0
Mustafina 5.9

Execution (this would include style issues like pointed toes, etc)
Komova 9.10
Douglas 8.933
Raisman 8.833
Mustafina 8.7

None of the three had any penalties (fell, stepped out of bounds, went over time)

The total score is Difficulty + Execution + Penalties.
Easy Peasy.


Total
Raisman (2nd overall) 15.133
Komova (3rd overall) 15.100
Douglas (4th overall) 15.033
Mustafina (6th overall) 14.60

Why we didn't get to see Izbasa on this apparatus (she was in 1st) is NBC being idiots.

That does make things clear, Doris. Thanks. And I noticed that Tim and Elfi did call attention to the way, for instance, Douglas's legs were straight and together on the vault and someone else's were crossed in midair. That does help us see how the components go together to create the overall score.

Bluebonnet said:

Just want to say congratulations to Gabby!!! And to Phelps!!! What a night! Phelps won another individual gold medal and Douglas won all around gold! I love these!!!

I love Komova's floor exercise the best. I thought she should have earned higher scores than she got. I mean she and Douglas should have had bigger difference in floor scores. Douglas had better volt, uneven bar, and ballance beam though. But what do I know?! I'm truly a casual fan who only watch gymnastics once every four years. Anyway, I'm thrilled for Douglas! And her coach!:thumbsup:

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I have been watching gymnastics for a few years now and am pretty good with calculating scores - in gymnastics it is actually easier to count the score that a gymnast should receive than in figure skating. The reason why I personally thought Komova should have won was also because of that floor which was the best in her life. That girl just had surgery two months ago and had to go against a girl who was injury-free.

But anyways, scores are calculated with a Difficulty score and Execution score. If your difficulty score is 6.0 (life Komova), your max score is 16.000 On floor tumbling passes, every small hop that you take after you finish a pass is a tenth off, every big hop is three tenths off. If you fall out of a spin (meaning you don't finish the rotation), you get about a three tenths deduction as well. One step out of bounds is one tenth and two feet are two tenths.

However, if you finish a tumbling pass without any hops (dead on) there should be no deductions. You can count the deduction as you watch a routine. Komova was dead on at almost every tumbling pass. I think she took one extra step. And she did not do a spin as well as she could have. She also finished low on one of the tumbling passes. In total, she should have gotten 0.6 in deductions giving her a 15.4 on floor. But the judges gave her a 15.1 and took 0.3 that just were not there. They kind of vanished in the air. Douglas's scoring was correct because she took more steps than Komova and fell out of a spin. She got a 15.033. Now, look at the difference. If Komova got that extra 0.3that deserved, she would have won.

But of course, the judges sometimes see stuff that I don't and the other way around. Yeah, right. My vision is not that bad. In other words, yes, you were correct in saying that Komova had a better floor than Douglas.

The judges also take points off on floor for tiny form breaks in leg line, separation, and things like not having ceiling touching height in the tumbles. Floor, being so long and filled with so many elements, tends to rack up tons of deductions when anything falls slightly short of the impossible perfection the judges have in mind. If McKayla Maroney and Kohei Uchimura's perfect vaults didn't get 10s in executions, and the judges found so much to deduct even in those split seconds, Komova's floor exercise, as amazingly pulled together as it was, was not going to get the score she needed to win. As it was, this is the highest floor score Komova has ever gotten in her career (except at something called the 2010 Central Region competition where she got a 16.4!? on floor). 15.359+ was just out of Komova's reach with her attempted difficulty.

Serious Business said:

The judges also take points off on floor for tiny form breaks in leg line, separation, and things like not having ceiling touching height in the tumbles. Floor, being so long and filled with so many elements, tends to rack up tons of deductions when anything falls slightly short of the impossible perfection the judges have in mind. If McKayla Maroney and Kohei Uchimura's perfect vaults didn't get 10s in executions, and the judges found so much to deduct even in those split seconds, Komova's floor exercise, as amazingly pulled together as it was, was not going to get the score she needed to win. As it was, this is the highest floor score Komova has ever gotten in her career (except at something called the 2010 Central Region competition where she got a 16.4!? on floor). 15.359+ was just out of Komova's reach with her attempted difficulty.

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If your going to penalize KOMOVA for tiny form breaks what about people Raisman? There's a ton of wrong things there with Aly... And even Douglas too. Komova's routine was judged .2 tenths better.

That's the problem and why gymnasts like Uchimura, Komova, and Maroney on vault get penalized. They do so many things right form wise. That they get nick picked on the little things. Douglas though is by far the best gymnast in the US.

That though is the problem with vault. Its one skill, less things to deduct. So it gets scored ridiculously higher than the other events... Its absolutely frustrating... And then they over score the harder ones. I believe Raisman's Amanar with its large steps got a higher execution score than Mustafina's DTY which was well stuck.

I will say this too, Komova hasn't competed much on floor in the last two years. At YOG she did get a 14.9 for a routine with lower difficulty. The girl has been in and out of ankle surgery for the last two years. Last year when she came to worlds, she had only 3 months of training, and I think thats why she struggled a bit on beam/floor. But people started calling her a headcase/ saying she had no fight etc. And I thnk an impression came that she was weak on floor...

Komova hadn't competed internationally on floor since! Except for maybe a minor competition where she actually got a 14.9 for some stuck landings. She had an ankle surgery in Jan, so she only did bars/beam and once again was shaky on beam.. People started calling her a headcase some more. Her coach pretty much said she's not a headcaes, she just hasn't had much time to train. There's clips of her doing floor at Russian cup which was a bit shaky but once again, she was just competiting floor. Komova sticking landings like that is something she use to do-as a Junior.

Apparently in training Komova didn't look all that strong on floor seemed to be lacking some in endurance... I think the lack of the ability to really compete the Amanar hurt her in the AA and I think it hurt her patterson.. Obviously though Komova now that she's healthier with more training is much stronger everywhere.

I think Komova was just a gymnast completely written off. Someone who peaked as a Junior.. Something tells me that we may even see more on floor from this girl next year. So Komova's floor was shocking but part of it was because nobody saw her on floor much.

I just can't help feeling if this girl had a few more months-things would be different...The Amanar would have been more solid, the passes/form even better... The Patterson more solid too with more experience... The best thing about these games is that Komova's starting to look like the gymnast she was in 2010... She still doesn't have that consistency, but it will come.

I think too given those ankle issues, she really doesn't try to stick passes a lot in training etc. I got the feeling in prelims she wasn't trying that hard there either. Trying to save the stamina... Because thats another thing people were concerned about with her.

Serious Business said:

The judges also take points off on floor for tiny form breaks in leg line, separation, and things like not having ceiling touching height in the tumbles. Floor, being so long and filled with so many elements, tends to rack up tons of deductions when anything falls slightly short of the impossible perfection the judges have in mind. If McKayla Maroney and Kohei Uchimura's perfect vaults didn't get 10s in executions, and the judges found so much to deduct even in those split seconds, Komova's floor exercise, as amazingly pulled together as it was, was not going to get the score she needed to win. As it was, this is the highest floor score Komova has ever gotten in her career (except at something called the 2010 Central Region competition where she got a 16.4!? on floor). 15.359+ was just out of Komova's reach with her attempted difficulty.

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That girl is not Raisman who gets high scores with terrible form and split jumps (that she does not get deducted on as much as she should). Komova was - yes - perfect on all her non-tumbling elements except for tenth on a spin. Yes, she deserved that and 15.4 just like Maroney deserved that perfect 16.5. Komova did not have tiny form breaks in leg line and separation. Instead she almost gets the same execution score that Douglas did with visible errors. I have been watching gymnastics for 12 years non-stop and know quite a bit about it.

I've almost entirely boycotted gymnastics since the disgraceful Sidney decision. So I won't go too far into this except to say:

a) it seems to have been a close decision (where partisans of the silver medalist can mount a defence for a different result and partisans of the gold medalist can mount a coherent defense of the results).

b) such contests are very good for a discipline ("what if" scenarios are always good for a sport, slam dunks - not so much). I still think Silivas should have won in 1988 (favorite floor evah!)

c) looking at the youtube stuff available I freakin' love Douglas's uneven bars routine more than any gymnast since Marcia Frederick (Komova not as much though it's pretty great).

d) let the would've shouldv'e could've arguments rage on!

Some news articles on the recent gymnastics going-ons, with a focus on the women, because I'm just not finding much in the English-speaking media about Kohei Uchimura and the other male gymnasts who made a mark:

An interview with Komova and Mustafina after the individual all around:

Komova may have shed many tears over not winning gold, but she puts it in perspective, "I am proud about what I've done today, but nevertheless I am a little disappointed because I wanted to gain the gold medal."

Mustafina, who seemed ecstatic after winning bronze, confirmed those feelings, "I'm totally happy with my performance today, with the exception of beam."

Both Russian gymnasts congratulated Douglas and said she deserved her win: Komova said, " I believe that she earned her gold medal. She was very, very good tonight." Echoed Mustafina: "I absolutely agree with Viktoria. She was fantastic. She didn't make a single mistake. She became the leading athlete from the very beginning."

This article points out that instead of focusing whether Mustafina violently slapped her coach's consoling hand away (in reality she might have shrugged off his pat, if even that), NBC commentators could've instead told viewers that Mustafina is a Muslim (is she? Can't find confirmation for sure anywhere) and a member of the Tatar minority in Russia. Her bronze win here (and her World Championship win a few years back) in the all-around are both historic and groundbreaking for those reasons. She would be the first Muslim and Tatar to achieve any one of those things.

In case you haven't heard, Gabby Douglas is a cornflake girl! She'll appear on the cover of Kellogg's Cornflakes to commemorate her Olympic all-around win. She may yet appear on other cereal boxes with her golden teammates.

In other endorsement news, Gabby Douglas just got a very special and personal tribute from Beyoncé on Beyoncé's official website. The singing superstar says Douglas is "inspiring".

No, there were other Tatar olympic champions so Mustafina is not the first. Here is a list:

Nellie Kim - 5 golds, 1 silver
Oleg Saitov - 2 golds, 1 bronze
Alina Kabaeva - 1 gold, 1 bronze
Yanina Batyrchina - 1 silver
Radion Gataullin - 1 bronze
Gulnara Samitova - 1 gold

They have all gotten olympic medals.

I'm not sure if Mustafina is Muslim. However, I have seen pictures of her in a church so maybe she's Christian?

http://www.aliyamustafina.ru/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pid=1464#top_display_media
http://www.aliyamustafina.ru/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=214
http://www.aliyamustafina.ru/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=212

Her name certainly sounds as if she has Muslim ancestry. My goodness, if she's a Muslim, has she been fasting for Ramadan? Some of the athletes have fasted, while others have decided to fast only on non-event days, and still others will do the complete fast after the Olympics. I believe I've read that people who are traveling during Ramadan are excused from fasting. If she is the first of her ethnicity to get a gold, extra congratulations to her. That would add her to an illustrious group. I remember in 1972 and 1976, Elvira Saadi was part of the Soviet team, which won both those times; Wiki says that she's Uzbek, but I don't know that signifies in terms of ethnicity or religion.

I just looked up Nelli Kim, and though she was part North Korean, she was Tatar on her mother's side. Russia is surprisingly multi-ethnic, or at least it was when it was the Soviet Union and had all those central Asian republics in its fold.

Thanks for the news links! The Russian ladies sound very gracious and mature. I hope they garner similar praise from the Americans. They deserve it, and they were thrilling to watch.

Does this mean I have to buy corn flakes? It's been years. Great that we're getting some new role models in popular culture. These youngsters beat the Kardashians by a country mile.

DianaSelene, the article was only referring to Tatar competitors medaling in all-around gymnastics. Although the article was talking about rarity, not firsts. And I don't think those pics convey her religion one way or another, she's there with the rest of her teammates. With Orthodox Christianity being the de facto state religion in Russia now, even if she wasn't a believer she'd be hard pressed not to attend a photo op there.

Olympia from what I've read of other Muslim athletes competing in the Olympics, they've gotten permission to do their fasting after the Olympics.

Serious Business said:

DianaSelene, the article was only referring to Tatar competitors medaling in all-around gymnastics. Although the article was talking about rarity, not firsts. And I don't think those pics convey her religion one way or another, she's there with the rest of her teammates. With Orthodox Christianity being the de facto state religion in Russia now, even if she wasn't a believer she'd be hard pressed not to attend a photo op there.

Olympia from what I've read of other Muslim athletes competing in the Olympics, they've gotten permission to do their fasting after the Olympics.

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Ok, I understand. It is rare for a Tatar but Mustafina is not the first Tatar to get a medal in the gymnastics all-around. Nellie Kim got a silver in the all-around in 1976.

Mustafina comes from a mixed religious family. Mom is Orthodox Christian.. Dad is Muslim; the kids will "choose" when they are older....She hasn't yet. There are actually quite a few Russian gymnasts from Muslim families.. Nabieva (at least Dad is)... A couple of guys, not all of them were in the Church.

i LOVE Aliya and Komova. 4 ind events/ I hope to see Ally, Komova, Weiber and Mustafina get inividual apparatus gold. They are alll in 1 or two events-anyone recall who on who? Just a dream for all 4 great women.

Complete list of women gymnasts who qualified for event finals

Regarding skateluvr's favorites:
- Komova qualified for finals of: uneven bars + beam
- Mustafina: uneven bars + floor ex
- Raisman: beam + floor ex
- Wieber: floor ex

And I can't help adding:
- Douglas: uneven bars + beam
- Maroney: vault :yay:

Complete list of women gymnasts who qualified for event finals:

I loved Ponor's beam exercise with the double pirouette in it I have hopes that her exercise will be shown again on TV.

I hope we will get to see Izbasa's floor and Vault. I feel cheated that we didn't see her on NBC during either the team qualifiers, the team comp or the all around.

Interesting that Chinese gymnasts qualified only for beam and uneven bars. I know they're supposed to be dominant, so I'm curious as to what the story is.

I didn't realize that Ponor qualified for two events. She's wonderful! Her balance beam earlier this week was a standout: mature, steady, elegant. They'd better show her on NBC!