2012 Cup of Russia Men FS.

deedee1 said:

Thank you, blue! I'm not surprised, 'cause I know that you liked last season's Daisuke (except his hair style, costume and that finger ).

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Well, those were part of his personalities.

Anyway, I do respect tremendously for Takahashi as a person.:thumbsup:

let`s talk said:

You are speaking with such disrespect and arrogance about the audience that I doubt that someone who paid for tickets, transportation, accomodation, and who felt the atmosphere of the live arena would ever share your view. Sofa specialists in front of free online streams pay nothing for this sport. Popularity directly means money. Strange that some people don't know that.

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Bluebonnet said:

I beg your pardon. I think that belittling the judges shows plainly about one's disrespect and arrogance.

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I think it's fine to criticize both the audience and the judges if one thinks their reactions to the skating they see are out of line. For instance, looking at CoR: can we agree that the judges in the pairs event were overly generous in scoring the top two pairs, especially V/T? Why not criticize this, then, and point out where they were wrong (a +3 on a two footed throw landing?!). Conversely, sometimes it's also fine to question the behavior of the audience; one example is the booing of Patrick Chan at last season's Worlds. It's fine to say that was not appropriate behavior if one feels that way (do you know who also thinks it was out of line and said so? Brian Joubert).

It doesn't matter how much training judges have had or how much time and money the audience spent. People are not infallible and can be criticized. The key is to do so without descending to nastiness and hyperbole.

In the current CoP era, I've found plenty of personalities. To name a few top ones: Daisuke Takahashi (Don't be surprised that I said so. I do believe it), Evgeni Plushenko, Jeremy Abbott, Brian Joubert, Patrick Chan, Florent Amodio, Yuzuru Hanyu... and more.

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Takahashi, Plushenko and Joubert all got their start under 6.0, and I would argue that the latter two remain 6.0 skaters at heart, with some needed adjustments to the current system: strong jumps and great showmanship are something that's important to them. There aren't many 6.0-oriented skaters left, and I think people respond to that style, when it's done well. Sometimes you want a skater to wow you by really being entertaining and putting on a great show, rather than with the number of transitions they can pack into a program (though Takahashi, when he has good programs, can sometimes do both).

I just finished watching the men's freeskate (taped it while I was at work) and, sorry to say, I thought most of the men were pretty boring with the exception of Patrick Chan. I felt like I was watching pretty much the same program - only the costumes (!!!!) and the faces were changed. It's not all about the jumps! Some of these guys needs to skate to their music and not just go thru the motions of throwing an arm up or doing a wiggle in their footwork. I was underwhelmed.

Buttercup said:

I think it's fine to criticize both the audience and the judges if one thinks their reactions to the skating they see are out of line. For instance, looking at CoR: can we agree that the judges in the pairs event were overly generous in scoring the top two pairs, especially V/T? Why not criticize this, then, and point out where they were wrong (a +3 on a two footed throw landing?!).

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Questioning the marks from the judges was not what I was refering to when I said "belittling", "disrespect", and "arrogance".

emdee said:

I do agree with the difference between online and live arena. When I used to watch online or on TV I enjoyed a number of skaters like Dai, Kozuka and many others. But, only when I saw Patrick Chan live and watched those magic feet in action did I realize where his superiority to other skaters on the circuit lies. Other skaters needed several pushes to get from one end of the arena - Patrick only needed two. His glide is unparalled IMO.

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I agree with this wholeheartedly. I always enjoyed and admired Patrick Chan's skating, but when I saw him live I was absolutely speechless. He's the kind of skater you could just watch stroke for hours — the way he moves across the ice is something very, very special.

There have been other skaters that even more so I didn't really get until I saw them live. Yu Na Kim was another such for me.

And as a whole discipline, I'd say that pairs suffers from not being seen live. It is extremely impressive live and you really get that edge-of-your-seat feeling with the big tricks.

Also dance — when seen live, the difference in speed and flow across the ice between the top teams and the rest is really noticeable, far more so than just on a screen.

deedee, what was your favourite Lambiel program? Your favourite Buttle program? The reason I'm asking is because many of their programs are considered COP peaks - Naqoyqaatsi, Ararat, Rachmaninov, Adios Noninos, Poeta, Blood Diamond, Vivaldi......

Forbes stated that Lysacek earned 2.5 million dollars in endorsements, appearance fees, etc the year after his Olympic victory.

I think in terms of stars, there were two things going for the 6.0 era. An equal emphasis on artistry/presentation (now it's relegated to less than a third of the mark) means that they can be more superficially entertaining and still score well. I also think COP is harder on the body in terms of injuries, so the era of skaters really excelling over two or three Olympic quads is a thing of the past. So it's more difficult to acquire that body of work that the past greats had.

ImaginaryPogue said:

I think in terms of stars, there were two things going for the 6.0 era. An equal emphasis on artistry/presentation (now it's relegated to less than a third of the mark) means that they can be more superficially entertaining and still score well. I also think COP is harder on the body in terms of injuries, so the era of skaters really excelling over two or three Olympic quads is a thing of the past. So it's more difficult to acquire that body of work that the past greats had.

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So 6.0 artistry is low-brow and IJS artistry is high-brow?

I know it's conventional wisdom that CoP is harder on the body and shortens careers, but I think the reverse may be true: there are a lot of old-timers currently competing - even Patrick Chan is a veteran! - and the skaters who do get injured aren't necessarily hurt on IJS-style elements. For instance: Dai's ACL injury happened on a bad 3A attempt, while Yretha Silete suffered a similar injury in a practice collision this past summer. Chan's one serious injury, the muscle tear in the Olympic season, has been linked with the effects of H1N1 (IIRC). Joubert spiked his blade into his foot on 3Lz attempts, Plushenko's knee issue predate the current system, Aliona Savchenko was hurt last year training a throw, and so on. Of course there are some repetitive strain injuries, but on the whole, I get the sense that the increased emphasis on footwork, spins, and correct technique is actually extending careers rather than shortening them.

Except maybe in dance, with the crazy contorted lifts the IJS pretty much requires.

re artistry: Pretty much.

We will have to agree to disagree. I think skaters had a lot more opportunities to be adventurous in their choreo and program concepts under the old system. Not all of them took advantage of this freedom, but at least the possibility existed. But now everything feels so constrained with the IJS requirements and the unfree free skate; non-stop transitions are not a substitute for artistry, and neither are contorted lifts. Technical skill can facilitate artistic expression, but that doesn't mean it always does. I feel like I'm watching a lot of paint by numbers programs, even at the highest level. Maybe especially at the highest level, because the skaters are so concerned about squeezing every last point out of their programs.

I think the Olympic games are and will be judged differently from the ISU's own events, like the world championships. At worlds, no one is watching except other skaters. At the Olympics, a billion people are watching. You cannot give the gold medal to someone who falls -- not with a billion people watching.

That is what I was getting at in predicting Chan's preparation. I think he has set aside this year to work on his second mark skills, having already got the SS and TR part down Pat. He does not have to do any more jumps beyond the layout of his current programs. All he has to do is rotate them and not fall. He can accomplish this by cutting back on the fancy entrances, footwork, and moves in the field. This will not affect his PCSs very much, and he will still outpoint competitors like Fernandez with three quads in the LP and Hanyu with two quads and two triple Axels. (JMO.)

Buttercup said:

We will have to agree to disagree. I think skaters had a lot more opportunities to be adventurous in their choreo and program concepts under the old system. Not all of them took advantage of this freedom, but at least the possibility existed. But now everything feels so constrained with the IJS requirements and the unfree free skate; non-stop transitions are not a substitute for artistry, and neither are contorted lifts. Technical skill can facilitate artistic expression, but that doesn't mean it always does. I feel like I'm watching a lot of paint by numbers programs, even at the highest level. Maybe especially at the highest level, because the skaters are so concerned about squeezing every last point out of their programs.

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I could not agree more with every word in your post Buttercup. I think the only advantage to the current judging rules is that a person CAN come back from a fall or whatever. I can remember listening to Dick Button under the 6.0 era drone on forever the minute a skater made a mistake that it was all over for them. The used to frustrate me so much and it ruined the enjoyment of the skate. The comment about "paint by number programs" was what I was referring to in watching the men's freeskate this weekend.

Buttercup said:

We will have to agree to disagree. I think skaters had a lot more opportunities to be adventurous in their choreo and program concepts under the old system. Not all of them took advantage of this freedom, but at least the possibility existed. But now everything feels so constrained with the IJS requirements and the unfree free skate; non-stop transitions are not a substitute for artistry, and neither are contorted lifts. Technical skill can facilitate artistic expression, but that doesn't mean it always does. I feel like I'm watching a lot of paint by numbers programs, even at the highest level. Maybe especially at the highest level, because the skaters are so concerned about squeezing every last point out of their programs.

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What i miss most are the basic gliding moves that comprise the heart and soul of figure skating.

Here is the last short program contested under 6.0. Give the audience what it came for. What they came for is this sequence of four spirals (never mind that she did nothing but back crossovers and front crossovers entering the sequence).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI-cbt1u1uc#t=1m40s

And while we're at it, this is a layback spin front he same program. Nary an ugly change of position or change of edge to mar its beauty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI-cbt1u1uc#t=1m20s

Buttercup said:

We will have to agree to disagree. I think skaters had a lot more opportunities to be adventurous in their choreo and program concepts under the old system. Not all of them took advantage of this freedom, but at least the possibility existed. But now everything feels so constrained with the IJS requirements and the unfree free skate; non-stop transitions are not a substitute for artistry, and neither are contorted lifts. Technical skill can facilitate artistic expression, but that doesn't mean it always does. I feel like I'm watching a lot of paint by numbers programs, even at the highest level. Maybe especially at the highest level, because the skaters are so concerned about squeezing every last point out of their programs.

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I would love to actually examine a season under 6.0 and see what you mean. But more than that, I don't believe that artistic expression is intrinsically superior to technical skin (that old saw). Mathman can cite examples until the end of time, and I'll cite counter examples, but that'll get us nowhere fast. I know I'm more thrilled by Kim's Roxanne steps than Cohen's Malaguena spiral because of that command.

ImaginaryPogue said:

I would love to actually examine a season under 6.0 and see what you mean. But more than that, I don't believe that artistic expression is intrinsically superior to technical skin (that old saw). Mathman can cite examples until the end of time, and I'll cite counter examples, but that'll get us nowhere fast. I know I'm more thrilled by Kim's Roxanne steps than Cohen's Malaguena spiral because of that command.

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I don't believe either is superior - I think in the best competitive performances, they compliment each other and can be of equal importance. But our starting point here was your contention that IJS artistry was more sophisticated/interesting/whatever adjective you want than 6.0 artistry, so I'm not sure how the question of technical mastery is relevant, unless it enables better artistic expression. And I don't think it necessarily does; that's up to the skaters and their choreographers.

Our excellent thread-jacking abilities strike again

Mathman said:

I think the Olympic games are and will be judged differently from the ISU's own events, like the world championships. At worlds, no one is watching except other skaters. At the Olympics, a billion people are watching. You cannot give the gold medal to someone who falls -- not with a billion people watching.

That is what I was getting at in predicting Chan's preparation. I think he has set aside this year to work on his second mark skills, having already got the SS and TR part down Pat. He does not have to do any more jumps beyond the layout of his current programs. All he has to do is rotate them and not fall. He can accomplish this by cutting back on the fancy entrances, footwork, and moves in the field. This will not affect his PCSs very much, and he will still outpoint competitors like Fernandez with three quads in the LP and Hanyu with two quads and two triple Axels. (JMO.)

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It's possible. Although there will be no room for the error if Hanyu, Takahashi, Plushenko, or Fernandez had a skate of their lifetime. If Patrick cannot have 4S or 4F ready in time, this is the way he has to play.

Buttercup said:

I don't believe either is superior - I think in the best competitive performances, they compliment each other and can be of equal importance. But our starting point here was your contention that IJS artistry was more sophisticated/interesting/whatever adjective you want than 6.0 artistry, so I'm not sure how the question of technical mastery is relevant, unless it enables better artistic expression. And I don't think it necessarily does; that's up to the skaters and their choreographers.

Our excellent thread-jacking abilities strike again

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Fair enough. I'd argue that figure skating artistry is only worthwhile if it comes through figure skating (aka, technical mastery).

noskates said:

I just finished watching the men's freeskate (taped it while I was at work) and, sorry to say, I thought most of the men were pretty boring with the exception of Patrick Chan. I felt like I was watching pretty much the same program - only the costumes (!!!!) and the faces were changed. It's not all about the jumps! Some of these guys needs to skate to their music and not just go thru the motions of throwing an arm up or doing a wiggle in their footwork. I was underwhelmed.

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I agree. I felt quite bored. PC's program, on the other hand, was quite glorious.

Bluebonnet said:

I think that belittling the judges shows plainly about one's disrespect and arrogance.

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So, belittling the audience is the right reserved for Chan ubers. While others can't even say any single word of critics of your guy's score without "shows plainly disrespect and arrogance to judges". The same old song that we were hearing from you guys for the whole last season- "the audience is dumb, we Chan fans and the judges are the ones with expertise!" Unfortunately for you the vast majority of fs community are quite knowledgeable. That's why no one ever took your guys' argument about stupid audience seriously . Probably that's why none of chan ubers took my advice and didn't let it go- the keep repeating how stupid everyone who disagree with their guy's score is. Pathetic.

ImaginaryPogue said:

deedee, what was your favourite Lambiel program? Your favourite Buttle program? The reason I'm asking is because many of their programs are considered COP peaks - Naqoyqaatsi, Ararat, Rachmaninov, Adios Noninos, Poeta, Blood Diamond, Vivaldi......

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My most favorite SP of Lambiel is Blood Diamond! No doubt.

LP is...Vivaldi for me, still...I know many believe Poeta is his masterpiece/best program in his whole career and I agree with them...'artistically'. Especially at 2007 Tokyo Worlds where, in spite of jump mistakes, I had goosebumps while watching it the whole time 4 mminutes d half! However, if I see it as a competitive program, I feel a bit incomplete becasuse of lack to ice coverage/over all speed/too many stops with dance at one place. (Sorry to say this and please don't get me wrong, becasuse I also knew his injuries over the years is part of its reason...)
With Vivaldi program in 2005-06 season, Stephane was literally 'flying' with joy over the ice, expressing every note of the music with his whole body while executing hardest jumps (2nd quad in the second half!), doing most difficult steps and spins at the same time!!! That was figure skating, the sport I fell in love, for me. Stephane exactly demonstrated 'figure skating' with this program, not mere hard jumps, not numbers of revolutions/change edges/positions required in spins, not all about skating skill, nor requirements to get level 4 step sq. A mixture of everything that was performed on the ice throughout 4 minutes+half!

As for Buttle, SP is probably Rachmaninov as a competitive program. Adios Noninos at 2007 Worlds comes to close second, though.
There are so many free programs of his that I really like, so I just can't pick up one...maybe Ararat at 2008 LA Worlds where he skated so perfectly (though I still prefer his white shirt with blue emboideries in the previous season).

I agree with you, IP, many of their programs are pure 'gems' in this CoP era. Around 2005-7 seasons, I did believe that we were going to encounter with many great programs such as Stephane's Vivaldi, Jeff's Glenn Gould, Dai's Klook or Tessa/Scott's Mahler, and that we were going to see many wonderful/exciting/beautiful/artistic skaters like them who can demonstrate a true figure skating. But the reality is, I am just an amateur fan so I don't know it for sure but...each season we get to see such great programs/skaters, say, not more than 10, maybe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hlj7bSqa98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F893u_lTNVw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDNXgzKHT9I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVfC9pD6sLM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttg2mmU8FcU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vJFdEfGk3w&feature=related
->I much prefer this shirt for his Ararat, though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpdzA20mgy0

Oh, I miss Stephane and Jeffs so much! IP, thanks a lot for reminding me of them. One of the reasons I love Steph, Jeff and Dai so much is every season they could make competitive programs, its choreographies, step sequences, etc. of their own's, and at every competition they entered or at every show appearance, they could always bring something special to the ice and bring the joy of skating to us, regardless of mistakes or not. :yes: (For that matter, I feel a bit disappointed with younger skaters and blame it to ISU :disapp:, except a couple of the mentioned in my previou post.) The intensity, strain and excitement during 6-minute warm up by the final group at 2007 Tokyo Worlds was the 'best and worst' moment for me, probably, because I loved all of them; the very best six skaters that year: Brian, Jeff, Dai, Johnny, Evan and Stephane, so I got so nervous for each one of them and I just did not know who to root for the most!

P.S. Buttle's style of skating was considered as ideal and most desired by ISU upon introduction of IJS/CoP, wasn't it?

That must have been some experience, watching that worlds live! I'd have been similarly anxious for everyone. Who could choose between Stephane, Jeff, and Daisuke--and then to add Brian, Johnny, and Evan to the mix.

That's an interesting point, that many of the greatest skating programs of recent times are also CoP gems. Certainly YuNa's programs qualify for that description. I wonder, though, whether some of these programs come from a time when CoP was calibrated slightly differently from the way it's set up now? Does anyone have any thoughts about that? I mean, at the beginning of CoP, Sasha held the points record for ladies for the first few years. She'd hardly score that high with such programs now. Have the criteria evolved?