who will u vote for in Nov.? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

who will u vote for in Nov.?

RG, I think it's interesting you feel this way. My father, a lifelong Republican and 36 year military veteran, will NOT be voting for GW this time because he can't believe how badly the whole Iraq situation has been handled. He strongly feels we should've gotten bin Laden and cleaned up Afghanistan before even considering going into Iraq. Fighting a two front war with a downsized military (thank Bush I for that) is NOT a good idea, and some have speculated that Colin Powell tried his best to make this known to GW and the gang, but they were all hung up on "we will be greeted as liberators" and such.

Where are you getting your information that the weapons are in Syria? I've heard speculation about it, but I've never seen confirmation.

Laura :)
 
My doctor has family in Syria and he shares RGal's opinion.
 
I admit that I see politics through a Jewish lens. When my husband got off the plane last year in Israel for his Father's funeral, the first thing his nephew handed him was a gas mask. He was supposed to carry it everywhere. It made me sick. Everyone had one--children took theirs to school. Due to the danger of being bombed by Iraq with gas being less imminent, recently, they were allowed to turn the masks in.

Mr. RG reads the news from Israel on a regular (somewhat obsessive) basis and there is a lot of info that never quite makes its way to the U.S. print media.

I need to say "thank you" to Bush--with my vote.
 
Well, now that RealtorGal mentions this, I do have to admit there is one (and only one) thing I like about Bush policy -- policy towards Israel.

However, I was very heartened to hear Kerry say agreed with Bush on supporting Sharon's unilateral withrawal from Gaza; it was a prime moment for him to pounce on Bush for going against "the rest of the world", and he didn't take the bait even though several interviewers encouraged him to do so. Also, here is a link to a page that lists Kerry's voting record on pro-Israel issues. It really isn't bad (though I agree that some in his campaign do portray him as more pro-Israel than he is).
 
PrincessLeppard said:
....Fighting a two front war with a downsized military (thank Bush I for that) is NOT a good idea, and some have speculated that Colin Powell tried his best to make this known to GW and the gang, but they were all hung up on "we will be greeted as liberators" and such.

Laura :)
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Bush had the military in the size inherited from the CLINTON White House. It is the CLINTON administration who must bear responsibility for a downsized military, for destroying information-sharing between the CIA and FBI, and for not capturing Bin Laden when Clinton was given the capability to do so. Clinton's response to the Cole bombing---lobbing missiles into the middle of nowhere---accomplished zilch.
 
euterpe said:
Clinton's response to the Cole bombing---lobbing missiles into the middle of nowhere---accomplished zilch.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you're describing his response to the African Embassy bombings (though I agree that the move was all for show, and accomplished far more harm than good). I don't think it's quite fair to say that Clinton did not and "capture Bin Laden when ... given the capability to do so". The most you can say is that Clinton did not invest appropriate resources into attempting to capture Bin Laden when given plenty of warning.
 
euterpe said:
Bush had the military in the size inherited from the CLINTON White House. It is the CLINTON administration who must bear responsibility for a downsized military, for destroying information-sharing between the CIA and FBI, and for not capturing Bin Laden when Clinton was given the capability to do so. Clinton's response to the Cole bombing---lobbing missiles into the middle of nowhere---accomplished zilch.
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The downsizing of the military began under Bush I. Base closings across Europe began under Bush I. I was a military brat at the time, and watched many, many capable men and women forced to retire early.

Laura
 
The closings under Bush I were because the Cold War had ended and there wasn't the need (at the time) for all the bases. But you can't blame GWB for what his father did more than 12 years ago. The military became far more depleted under Clinton, and GWB inherited the army as it was at the end of the Clinton era.
 
I feel more threatened now than at any time during the cold war :eek: :cry: ! Surely George I did't think that the U.S. was without enemies just because the cold war was over. Couldn't the staff from bases that were closed be transferred to other areas?
 
I feel threatened, too--perhaps a great deal more than you do. Two of my friends and neighbors died in the WTC. My daughter lives and works in midtown Manhattan.

But you can't blame either Bush 1 or GWB for 9/11. Keeping those bases open wouldn't have prevented the attack. The 9/11 attack was planned well in advance, and operatives were selected and positioned a year or more before the attack.
 
Okay, first of all, you are trying to blame Clinton for the smaller military, which isn't true. But even given that we have a smaller military, Bush II inheirited a damn good military from Clinton. But something is going to have to be done by whoever wins in November about the extended hardship tours for both reserve and active duty personnel, or we are going to have too many people getting out of the military who need to stay in.

I had friends in the Pentagon, but I don't blame anyone for the 9/11 attacks except the men who were flying the planes.

Laura :)
 
Also, when they close bases, there are a lot of jobs lost from the area because there aren't as many people there and there's quite a few jobs lost since there are local people working on the base, etc.
 
euterpe said:
But you can't blame either Bush 1 or GWB for 9/11. Keeping those bases open wouldn't have prevented the attack. The 9/11 attack was planned well in advance, and operatives were selected and positioned a year or more before the attack.
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If you can't blame Bush I or GWB for 9/11, then nor can you blame Clinton for it.
 
Ogre Mage said:
If you can't blame Bush I or GWB for 9/11, then nor can you blame Clinton for it.
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It's said that this whole thing is degenerating into a blame game. I feel that the 9/11 comission could have done a lot more done had people NOT been so quick to blame, making politicians over-defensive. Bush/ Chaney/ Rice were all, IMHO, less that fully cooperative. I don't think it was just because they wanted to hide information from the public -- I think it's also that whatever they said, they would be "blamed" for something or other.
 
"Pro death"

Frankly I feel the same way about abortion AND the death penalty. Both should be legal AND rare.

I am well aware that a disproportionate number of people of color are on death row. I am a person of color myself. I am also aware that there are innocent people on death row. These are inexcusable failings. But while I may have problems with the way the law is applied, I have no problem with the idea that some people deserve death for what they have done. Frankly, if someone decided it was "fun" to torture my family to death and they were caught, I would want to see the person executed. There are rare but clear cases when guilt is beyond a shadow of a doubt and the crime is so horrible that the continued existence of the perpetrator is an affront to not just the victim's family, but society as a whole. Tim McVeigh would be one good example. Ted Bundy is another. I also think the death penalty acts as a deterrent to crime.

I wrote a paper on abortion when I was an undergraduate and I was always haunted by the pictures I saw of women who died having illegal abortions. There have been many arguments over the years about whether or not the fetus is a "person" but there I was staring at the picture of a woman who had undoubtedly been a person. This stuck with me far, far more than the images of aborted fetuses that the so-called "pro-life" camp used. Some women who have abortions become very depressed afterward and feel it ruined their life. Then they suddenly become "pro-life." But it is wrong and even arrogant for them to assume the experience of others will be the same as theirs. Many women have abortions and are able to get on with their lives very well. At least it was their choice. It would be far more depressing to be "trapped without any options." H. Clinton was correct -- "It is a violation of human rights when women are denied the right to plan their own families."
 
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Paradoxically enough, base closings are still going on. We hear here in CT that the Groton Navy base may be closed.

Both parties bought into the ideas of base closings as a way of achieving balanced budgets or lowering taxes-the goal depending on the party. Neither one nor the other party can be blamed separately.

What the current administration does bear some responsibility for is not understanding that the current army was not large enough to carry on war on two fronts, Afghanistan and Iraq, at the same time. When told by advisors and generals that this was so, guess what? They fired the advisors.

And guess what now? They still will not admit they made a mistake about the size of the army.

Those facts alone are enough to question the wisdom of giving Bush/Cheney a second term.

If Bush is reelected, and you have young sons and daughters or grandsons or granddaughters, you need to be ready for them to be drafted into the military.
 
PielThe point is that if you are against abortion you don't have to have one. But you don't have the right to dictate your moral beliefs as to what I can do with my body if I don't believe it is murder. That is the dividing point regarding abortion and will be debated forever. OTOH when an execution is carried out you know for sure that a living person is being murdered there is no question there no matter what your beliefs are. If even one person gets the death penalty by mistake that is one too many. said:
The school systems started going down the drain as soon as they kicked God out of Public education. I'm old enough to have witnessed the decline in the morals of children since they have been robbed of their iinnocence and over exposed to sex.

As for abortion, in the past, girls had abortions because it wasn't socially correct to have a child out of wedlock & I'm sure alot of the decisions were made in a moment of panic. Today, you can have a baby anytime you want without that stigma on the mother or the child, I cannot understand how anyone could say a unborn child is not a living human being and not made in the image of God, just as we are. God has a plan for every life and there are many childless couples who want to hold that baby and give it love. Ever baby, born or unborn should have the same protection we have as a human being. My heart bleeds for all the aborted babies and their misinformed mothers. Even people who believe in abortion call their baby a baby when they want it. I'm sure thy don't call it a fetus.

I want a president who will value the life of every person born or unborn and is not afraid to stand up for what he believes even if it might cost him the election. George Bush stepped up to the plate on 911 and let the terrorist know the US is not going to rest till we get them all. I don't want the UN to make decisions for my country. I'm voting for Bush!!
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Peggy said:
PielThe point is that if you are against abortion you don't have to have one. But you don't have the right to dictate your moral beliefs as to what I can do with my body if I don't believe it is murder. That is the dividing point regarding abortion and will be debated forever. OTOH when an execution is carried out you know for sure that a living person is being murdered there is no question there no matter what your beliefs are. If even one person gets the death penalty by mistake that is one too many. said:
The school systems started going down the drain as soon as they kicked God out of Public education. I'm old enough to have witnessed the decline in the morals of children since they have been robbed of their iinnocence and over exposed to sex.

As for abortion, in the past, girls had abortions because it wasn't socially correct to have a child out of wedlock & I'm sure alot of the decisions were made in a moment of panic. Today, you can have a baby anytime you want without that stigma on the mother or the child, I cannot understand how anyone could say a unborn child is not a living human being and not made in the image of God, just as we are. God has a plan for every life and there are many childless couples who want to hold that baby and give it love. Ever baby, born or unborn should have the same protection we have as a human being. My heart bleeds for all the aborted babies and their misinformed mothers. Even people who believe in abortion call their baby a baby when they want it. I'm sure thy don't call it a fetus.

I want a president who will value the life of every person born or unborn and is not afraid to stand up for what he believes even if it might cost him the election. George Bush stepped up to the plate on 911 and let the terrorist know the US is not going to rest till we get them all. I don't want the UN to make decisions for my country. I'm voting for Bush!!
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And which God would that be? :rolleye:
Click to expand...
 
Peggy said:
[
The school systems started going down the drain as soon as they kicked God out of Public education. I'm old enough to have witnessed the decline in the morals of children since they have been robbed of their iinnocence and over exposed to sex.

As for abortion, in the past, girls had abortions because it wasn't socially correct to have a child out of wedlock & I'm sure alot of the decisions were made in a moment of panic. Today, you can have a baby anytime you want without that stigma on the mother or the child, I cannot understand how anyone could say a unborn child is not a living human being and not made in the image of God, just as we are. God has a plan for every life and there are many childless couples who want to hold that baby and give it love. Ever baby, born or unborn should have the same protection we have as a human being. My heart bleeds for all the aborted babies and their misinformed mothers. Even people who believe in abortion call their baby a baby when they want it. I'm sure thy don't call it a fetus.

I want a president who will value the life of every person born or unborn and is not afraid to stand up for what he believes even if it might cost him the election. George Bush stepped up to the plate on 911 and let the terrorist know the US is not going to rest till we get them all. I don't want the UN to make decisions for my country. I'm voting for Bush!!
Click to expand...

God is as present as ever. If a student, teacher or anyone else in a public school or any public building feels disconnected from God that is a problem within that individual. Anyone can pray at anytime anywhere. I have never found myself in a place or situation thaty I could not worship God. What you can't do is force others to participate or be a witness to religious activity that may not be their beliefs on government property. I wonder if ithe majority of the citizens in the United States were Islamic, Catholic, or Jewish would the right wing still be trying to force one's private religious beliefs to be a part of government? Our consttution is there for everyone not just the majority. Children who have good moral values instilled in them at home by loving families seldom experience moral decline.

Women choose to have abortions because they don't want to be mothers at that time or by the circumstances that may have caused a particular pregnancy. It is not a decision she makes lightly or enters into without careful thought, much soul searching, and prayer. As with any medical procedure informed consent is a matter of fact. Likewise, embryo and fetus are medical terms for the stages a fetilized ovum goes through before becoming a baby. I don't believe that God plans for anyone to be victims of rape or incest or for children to bear children. There are many childless couples who want to adopt healthy, newborn, white babies. It seems they are not so anxious to become parents when the child available for adoption is a minority, disfigured, chronically ill, or an older child that is a run away, has behaviour problems, or from an abusive home and has been shuffeled around the foster care system. Motherhood is a serious job and should not be forced on anyone who does not want it. This is a sure way to begin a dysfunctional family.

A president who values the life of everyone does not force te elderly to choose between eating and buying their medications., or for people to work for a wage that will not give them the basic neccesities of life. But wait, THAT is where the Republicans decide it is time for government to bow out of peoples lives.
 
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Madison, Father of the Constitution, On Why the Church and State Must be Separate

Perhaps the most important quote from President Madison's article is IMO:

Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?
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If you have studied history (or even current events) at all, it is very clear that any time a religion becomes sponsored by the state, it uses that power to not only oppress members of other religions, but to brutally suppress differences in its own members.

When the Puritans, who fled Europe so we are told, due to persecution, they set up a theocracy in MA that was so oppressive that people fled to RI, CT and VT to escape it.

In England, as different kings of different religious persuasions took the throne, both Protestants and Catholics were burned, hacked and hanged. Henry VIII not only burned Catholics, he also burned Protestants who were not Epicopalian.

You have only to look at the differences in Islam, and the bad effects of madrasa schools to know that religion and the state don't mix and lead to the creation of murderous regimes.

We do not need to create Christian madrasas in this country.

Do you want your children forced to say the Catholic version of the Lord's prayer if you are Protestant or the Protestant version if you are Catholic. Do you want all Jewish and Islamic children to feel non human and threatened in their schools here in the US?

Please read Madison on why our founding fathers separated church and state. It was not just for the benefit of the nonChristians and the nonsectarians. It was to prevent the church itself from corruption.
 
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