Will this be the year for Sasha Cohen?

euterpe · Jul 8, 2004

I think the reason people get exasperated with Cohen is that at the really important events like Nationals and Worlds, she skates a terrific SP and is in position to win, then inexplicably crumps in the FS. And she does it very, very consistently. Look at Nationals and Worlds this year. At Nationals, she won the SP and the media predicted she was on her way to winning her first National Championship. She started her FS and was a little stiff and a lot cautious, and 2/3 of the way through, BAM! down she went, and gold was gone. Worlds was pretty much the same story. She sailed through the QR and SP in first place, and it seemed as if this time she was going to go all the way. Again, she started the FS tight and stiff, and botched her first jump and then her last jump, too.

Sasha's problem is not necessarily with her skating. Sasha's problem is Sasha.

sarahmistral · Jul 8, 2004

Hi Mathman!

Actually, not only are people pickier with Sasha because of that, but there also seems to be a sort of vicious cycle that is set off with regards to expectations of Sasha: Media goes on and on about her obvious natural ability and how good she can be when she is on, then she makes a mistake (which as RISkatingFan pointed out, are not usually meltdowns a la Nicole Bobek, but rather the type of stuff that happens to the best of them), then her fans get all frustrated and wonder why she isn't perfect, and the non-fans who get irritated about all the media hype dismiss her as a head case who'll never get it together (rather than recognizing that she's just another elite skater who is prone to nervous and tired errors--elite skating's no walk in the park). It would be cool if we could all just sit back and enjoy what all the skaters have to offer and be tolerant when they fall; after all, it isn't Sasha out there harping on and on about how talented she is and about how she's the next big thing; she's just training hard like everyone else in a very demanding sport, and if people hype her up because of her talent, I don't think it's fair to come down extra hard on her when she makes a mistake. As for the extra-competitive streak she's criticized for at times, I think it's normal to be ambitious, because let's face it, no one at the elite level is out there purely for the love of skating, after having trained so very hard for so many years. So yeah, Mathman, pardon the digression, but to answer your question, I do think that there is a higher standard for Sasha, partly because of all the talent she has and of all the talk of the talent, and partly because, as anyone at the elite level who is aiming for the top (and she's steadily making progress towards it, I think), she's hungry, and if she weren't, she'd have retired and gone into pros already, so she'd better be hungry.

I, for one, am just intrigued to see the programs all the skaters will debut next year, particularly Sasha, Yukina, and Michelle.

Cheers,
Sarah

RIskatingfan · Jul 8, 2004

euterpe said:
I think the reason people get exasperated with Cohen is that at the really important events like Nationals and Worlds, she skates a terrific SP and is in position to win, then inexplicably crumps in the FS.

See, I don't agree with that assessment that she "crumps". Just because a skater does well in the SP and just because they are talented and in position to win... doesn't mean they can do it LOL You mentioned Nationals and Worlds last season... but she still came in second in both, it's not like she splatted all over. And despite the criticism she got for her Worlds Swan Lake performance, we still don't know if the judges would have given her the gold had she not had that mistake in the salchow (I think Arakawa should have gotten gold with first place ordinals across the board, but that's another story).

I think most people are not realizing that Sasha has been improving tremendously in the two past seasons and prefer to keep criticising her for not skating clean. First they criticized her for not skating clean. Then she started skating clean programs, so they criticized her for not skating clean LPs. Then she started skating clean LPs, so people went to say she chokes at major events :laugh:

It's a pity. I'm all for constructive criticism and see what skaters can do to improve, but when you keep hearing the same things over and over and watch people missing her enjoyable improvement because the only thing they seem to see in Sasha is that she can't always skate clean...

Btw, Sarahmistral, ITA with your post.

sarahmistral · Jul 8, 2004

I'm starting to think that RI stands for ReallyIntelligentSkatingFan

But I'll have to PM you to ask what it stands for, as you once said we should.

Cheers,
Sarah

rtureck · Jul 8, 2004

I don't think fans are any pickier on Sasha than on e.g. Sarah, Tara, or Michelle. It is not just the press who are hyping Sasha. Some of her fans love to blow the pre game talk to the sky. How many times have we seen some Cohen fans here at GS gushes Sasha is the best ever, and predicts Sasha will kick everyone butt at this competition and that. When some of her fans do so much pre game talk, there is likely to be response. F.S. is a sport, if fans are allowed pre game trash talk, then when their favorites fail to capture the big one, you bet there are responses. If fans want to have less responses, then some fans need to tone down the pre game trash talks. Imagine the LA lakers fans pre game trash talk, but when the Piston capture the championship, do you think Piston fans will be silent?

BTW, I don't think there is anything wrong with HYPE, either from press or fans, as long as their favorites live up to the hype. MK was hyped, and Tara was even more HYPED, but they live up to it.

About that Robin Wagner quote

Some in the sport believe that because her skating is so elegant, Cohen is hurt more than others when an error interrupts the reverie she creates. 'It's like when you're listening to an orchestra,' Wagner said, 'and you hear one violin or cello go "eek" and it's disturbing much more than (it would be) in a mediocre performance.'

I think that is one of the most oxymoronish quote from Wagner, and I am her fan. Top tier orhcestras with awesome string sections e.g. Philadelphia orchestra under Ormandy NEVER eek, not even once from one violinist or one cellist. These string players may not have the perfect intonation (not having perfect intonation is an error, but forgiveable error), but they don't eek. Not even second tier orchestras string players eek. EEKING is an unforgiveable error even from 4th tier orchestras, even college orchestras string sections don't eek.

Maybe local high school orchestras eek. So why is Robin trying compare Cohen to some local high school orchestras?

soogar · Jul 8, 2004

I for one am glad that Sasha is "slowly" improving verses winning everything at once. I personally feel that she is setting herself up quite nicely for an Olympic Gold in Turino which is more important that winning everything she enters in now. I think Sasha will win Worlds in 2005 and OGM in 2006. Her progress reminds me of another skater whom everyone seems to love : Kristi Yamaguchi. Kristi didn't make it onto the World Podium until 1991 when she won the thing and then won gold the next year. Yeah you might blame figures and pairs, but she had a few years to make mistakes and grow from them. I see Sasha making the same improvements and growing from her mistakes.

RIfan; ITA about Shizuka and it was really wrong that MK would have even gotten first place ordinals against Shizuka's program. However the judges were in a generous mood that Worlds (6.0s for all who stand up).

rtureck · Jul 8, 2004

soogar said:
I

RIfan; ITA about Shizuka and it was really wrong that MK would have even gotten first place ordinals against Shizuka's program. However the judges were in a generous mood that Worlds (6.0s for all who stand up).

I think it was even more wrong for Sasha to have 5.9s and 5.8s marks similar to Shizuka's because Sasha's lp in worlds was lifeless and ZZZZZ.

Lucy25 · Jul 8, 2004

rtureck said:
I think it was even more wrong for Sasha to have 5.9s and 5.8s marks similar to Shizuka's because Sasha's lp in worlds was lifeless and ZZZZZ.

Agreed. Talk about very generous scores.

It seems as though at most competitions the commentators go on and on about how Sasha had "perfect practices all week". When she doesn't skate perfectly in the competition, it's like those commentators are trying to save their own face by then making comments about Sasha being a head case. I don't see this as Sasha's fault. Maybe she should have troubles in practice run throughs on purpose

. Seriously, I can't see into Sasha's head, and maybe she does have a problem putting it all together in the big events, but I agree with many posters that she does get picked on more than she should (now she knows how Michelle feels). It must be hard for an athlete to hear and read what a head case he/she is.

Mathman · Jul 8, 2004

"Imagine the LA lakers fans pre game trash talk, but when the Pistons capture the championship, do you think Piston fans will be silent?" -- RTureck

Now you're talkin', RT. Heck no we won't keep quiet. Shaq, get back! The Fakers, oh I mean the Lakers, suck big time, and so do their fans! (Except Michelle, who was shown on TV a couple of times in game 2 -- the only game the Lakers won, BTW -- along with Jack Nicholson cheering on the hometown guys.)

About orchestras that go EEK, doesn't Sarah H. play the violin? (OK, that was mean. Sorry, Sarah.)

"ITA about Shizuka and it was really wrong that MK would have even gotten first place ordinals against Shizuka's program." -- Soogar

As much as I love Shizuka, and as well as she skated all week, I still have to agree with the judges that ranked Michelle's free skate first. If you really watch with an unbiased eye, in terms of artistic maturity Michelle still remains in a class by herself. :love:

"It must be hard for an athlete to hear and read what a head case he/she is." -- Lucy

I agree with this, too. I feel a lot more comfortable beating up on Shaquille Oneal (verbally) than on a tiny figure skater.

Mathman

Ogre Mage · Jul 8, 2004

Random Sasha Thoughts

Sasha reminds me of Nancy Kerrigan with her stunning short programs, then tight and error-prone in the free.

A significant reason she has gotten more attention than Kwan the last two years is because she competed full-bore all season. Kwan opted out of GP series. 2005 will be a different story.

I think Wagner can help Sasha with her mental game, which is the biggest thing holding her back. I do not think she can help Sasha choreographically.

While she did have some problems in Dortmund, a silver medal at Worlds is a big step forward. 2004 was the year that officially put her among the international elite.

I do not think 2005 will be the year of anyone. No one will dominate the season.

I actually think Sasha is more likely to win 2005 Worlds rather than 2005 Nats. I think the fact that there are many top competitors there actually helps Sasha focus on her own performance. At Nationals it is basically "Michelle v. Sasha" and I think that makes Sasha very nervous. Plus, Worlds is in Russia this year, a country that has been very friendly to Sasha in the past.

purplecat · Jul 8, 2004

Mathman said:
The Fakers, oh I mean the Lakers, suck big time, and so do their fans! (Except Michelle, who was shown on TV a couple of times in game 2 -- the only game the Lakers won, BTW -- along with Jack Nicholson cheering on the hometown guys.)

Hey Mathman! You better make an exception for me too! I am a lifelong Laker fan! Can't say I was too happy with them during the Finals :rolleye:

, but that won't change me from being a Laker fan the rest of my life! Of course my favorite Laker teams were in the 80's though with Magic, Kareem, James Worthy and one of my all time faves Michael Cooper and the rest.

Back on topic: Sasha Cohen...I adore her! Will it be her year? I ain't touching that one...not going to jinx her or anyone!

BronzeisGolden · Jul 8, 2004

Lord, who knows! I just hope she can deliver when it counts. That would mean the most to her and really give her so much more confidence.

Kasey · Jul 8, 2004

Someone in this thread compared Sasha to Kerrigan, with the stunning short programs and struggles with long program. Paul Wylie did this often in his career also. And his 'year', his 'event' of his career came from out of nowhere, and exceeded even his own expectations. I am not at all a Sasha fan. But I hope that the year of 2005 will belong to whoever earns it, and if it is her, good for her.

Sometimes I wonder if making posts like this, making suggestions like this, is akin to the Sports Illustrated cover jinx?

I will keep my predictions to myself, just in case!

Kasey

LBC · Jul 9, 2004

Ogre Mage said:
Sasha reminds me of Nancy Kerrigan with her stunning short programs, then tight and error-prone in the free.

A significant reason she has gotten more attention than Kwan the last two years is because she competed full-bore all season. Kwan opted out of GP series. 2005 will be a different story.

I think Wagner can help Sasha with her mental game, which is the biggest thing holding her back. I do not think she can help Sasha choreographically.

While she did have some problems in Dortmund, a silver medal at Worlds is a big step forward. 2004 was the year that officially put her among the international elite.

I do not think 2005 will be the year of anyone. No one will dominate the season.

I actually think Sasha is more likely to win 2005 Worlds rather than 2005 Nats. I think the fact that there are many top competitors there actually helps Sasha focus on her own performance. At Nationals it is basically "Michelle v. Sasha" and I think that makes Sasha very nervous. Plus, Worlds is in Russia this year, a country that has been very friendly to Sasha in the past.

I agree with you here. I do think that Sasha is getting over her Michelle phobia after beating her 3 times last year. Her nerves have improved if you compare 2004 to 2003. She is at least skating clean SP's. Her mistakes were on jumps and not on spins or footwork. Overall this past season had much better LP's than the one before. Consisdering her split with TT and switch to Robin 2 weeks before her performance at Nats was pretty good. Considering the awful December where she basically lost her confidence she got some of it back at Nats. Her Worlds perfomances were much better than last year. Clean QR and SP which was better than falling in SP like she did in 2002 and 2003. The LP was stiff and nervous but she got through it standing up with only one mistake on a jump. Marshalls was a confidence booster in that she is believing that she can skate clean.

I agree with others in saying that the media and others are harder on Sasha than others who make the same mistakes. I think it is better that she hasn't won too early and slowly moved up the ladder. It gives her something to work towards and the experience of losing makes winning mean so much more. It took Irina years to finally win that World title. Even people who aren't big fans of her were happy to see her win. Phil Michelson winning the Masters after so many years of disappointment at majors made me cry. Phil actually reminds me of Sasha. Great talent who won many tournaments but couldn't win the big ones. Everyone wonder if he'd ever be able to hold it together and win it. He finally did and is more popular now than he ever was. He screwed up at the US Open and nobody cared anymore while before he would have been crucified.

Will it be Sasha's year? Nobody knows that. Only time will tell.

Ogre Mage · Jul 9, 2004

LBC said:
Will it be Sasha's year? Nobody knows that. Only time will tell.

Another factor next year will be that CoP will be used at Worlds, but not U.S. Nationals. Sasha is already a veteran of CoP and should do fine. But Michelle will be trying to adjust to the new system. Since it will not be used at U.S. Nationals she will be sitting pretty there. But at Worlds she must contend with CoP, plus the fact the international judges are generally not as impressed with her as the U.S. panel.

Shizuka should be a strong contender at Worlds next year, especially with the weight of Tarasova behind her when the championship is in Moscow. But Shizuka will have the white hot pressure of trying to defend a world title. We'll see what happens.

tripleflutz · Jul 9, 2004

Sasha, maybe

If Sasha could put together all clean programs in the same competition, she'd be a threat to win, and probably would, no matter who the other skaters were or how well they skated. Her technique and presentation are that good. But she's never done it when it counted. So who knows?

tripleflutz

berthes ghost · Jul 9, 2004

Ogre Mage said:
Sasha reminds me of Nancy Kerrigan with her stunning short programs, then tight and error-prone in the free.

Please

, I could do a bloopers tape with all of Sasha's fumbled SP performances. Just because she messes up the SP 50% of the time and messes up the LP 99% of the time, doesn't mean she's some kind of power SP skater.

chuckm · Jul 9, 2004

I agree with BG. It was only this season that Sasha had clean SPs at Nationals and Worlds. In the 2002-2003 season, although Sasha won gold medals at her first two GP events, she had falls and bobbles in the SPs. Only at Cup of Russia did she skate two relatively clean programs, and she lost there to Volchkova. At 2003 Nationals, Sasha messed up in both SP and FS, and at Worlds 2003, she fell in both SP and FS.

This past season, she had a minor problem with her 3Z2T in the Skate America SP, had clean SPs at Skate Canada and Lalique, but fell on her combo at the GPF. But her SPs were far cleaner this season than last. Maybe this season her major event FSs will start to clean up, too.

nymkfan51 · Jul 9, 2004

I think one of the reasons Sasha gets picked on a bit more than others for her mistakes, is because she hasn't proven yet that she can skate cleanly through an entire competition. She has been given a great deal of praise from the media, even the thought being thrown out there that she could be the greatest ever. With all this praise comes expectations ... which, if not accomplished, result in heavy criticism from the very people who were praising you. It's not easy being at the top ... people love putting you on a pedastal, all the while just waiting for the moment they can knock you off it.

As far as her skating well at Worlds and Marshalls, my concerns here are that most of the choreographic content had been taken away from the original product. It still remains to be seen if she can put that back in, and add the more difficult jump combos.
BTW, I have the same concerns for Michelle. The only difference with her though, is that she has a multitude of totally clean performances to fall back on. I do agree with whoever said that they don't believe anyone will dominate this coming season. I think we will see quite a few hits and misses from everyone. This is a BIG season coming up!

berthes ghost · Jul 9, 2004

OK, I want names! That's right, people need to start putting their money where thier mouths are. Just who are all these people who are supposidly immune to criticism despite never skating clean? Names please. Sandu? Bobeck? Klimkin? Orser (Mr. Second Place)? Angela? Who?

Could it actually be *gasp!* that Sasha is just like everyone else?

Will this be the year for Sasha Cohen?

euterpe

sarahmistral

RIskatingfan

sarahmistral

rtureck

soogar

rtureck

Lucy25

Mathman

Ogre Mage

purplecat

BronzeisGolden

Kasey

LBC

Ogre Mage

tripleflutz

berthes ghost

chuckm

nymkfan51

berthes ghost

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