Ashley Wagner's popularity

Mathman said:

The other reason is that although the USFSA said over and over that they were going to abandon precedent this year, no one really believed them because they had been crying about the same wolf over and over but nothing ever happened. When they finally did what they said they were going to do it caught people by surprise. (In fairness to the USFSA, though, the problem rarely occurs. Most of the time the best skaters internationally also do well enough at nationals to make the Olympic team -- or if not, then they receive a little nudge in nationals judging to make sure it all comes out right.)

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Unfortunately, maybe the backlash over Ashley prevented them doing something similar with the men. Can you imagine the meltdown if they'd said, "No Jeremy, we don't trust you, we're not sending you"?

skateluvr said:

I started this thread to get a sense of her popularity and secondarily why you like her or not.

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I find myself liking her the last two seasons, whereas I haven't noticed her before and didn't care much for the praised Swan program. As for comments and off-ice personality, she seems alright. I like some of her remarks, and don't like others. I don't get worked up over the latter though, as I do with a few other skaters. I like that she speaks her mind even when I don't agree with her; it's fresh and interesting. As for her skating, I'm a fan of the programs that she did this season. I don't find her particularly gentle and lyrical, but IMO she excels at being seductive, athletic and energetic. I find her skating to such programs memorable and refreshing, as I do her appearance. Also, she's done a lot of work on her arm/hand work the last two seasons, I believe.

skateluvr said:

I hope people will weigh in as fan or non fan and explain why. She will be number two lady or. Number one maybe again. True thoughts?

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She may as well be US #1 again, if she has a stronger and better performed program than the other skaters. She has it in her, and I'm definitely not writing her off.

I also likes that Ashley speaks her mind. Over the weekend there was a lot of fuss in the U.S. about a pre-teen golf prodigy named Lucy Li. Of course she's amazing, but when the regular news program did a feature on her, they talked of how "delightfully different" she was from the other contenders. Their idea of her difference? She was shown at a press conference saying, "I just wanted to go out there and have fun." I confess that I cringed a bit. That's the word-for-word mantra of every well-behaved girl skater, to show that she isn't too aggressive. Golf reporters just aren't used to it because there are very few child golfers who show up. It's not generally a sport that benefits from a tiny, pre-pubescent body. Li just happens to have a powerful swing, and you can bet she doesn't play around when she practices.

Whereas Ashley is very upfront about wanting to win. I don't love her particular brand of "motivation-speak," but I admire the determination behind it.

Olympia said:

I also likes that Ashley speaks her mind. Over the weekend there was a lot of fuss in the U.S. about a pre-teen golf prodigy named Lucy Li. Of course she's amazing, but when the regular news program did a feature on her, they talked of how "delightfully different" she was from the other contenders. Their idea of her difference? She was shown at a press conference saying, "I just wanted to go out there and have fun." I confess that I cringed a bit. That's the word-for-word mantra of every well-behaved girl skater, to show that she isn't too aggressive. Golf reporters just aren't used to it because there are very few child golfers who show up. It's not generally a sport that benefits from a tiny, pre-pubescent body. Li just happens to have a powerful swing, and you can bet she doesn't play around when she practices.

Whereas Ashley is very upfront about wanting to win. I don't love her particular brand of "motivation-speak," but I admire the determination behind it.

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Wow -- strongly disagree :disagree: that eleven-year-old Lucy Li is cringe-worthy.
I did not cringe over what I saw of her. Quite the opposite in fact.
Although I think she takes golf seriously, my impression was that she does not take herself overly seriously. In the presser that I saw, she did make a comment (I'm paraphrasing) about not being thrilled with high scores. (Of course, it would have been silly for her to say that she wanted to win this year's US Open. If she did not want to have fun out on the course, that would make me cringe.)
And I did find it quite "delightful" that she does not make any pretense of being any age other than eleven years old. During the presser, she was happily consuming an ice cream bar as she answered questions. She wears girlish braids and youthful outfits. I am pleased that she is not trying to present herself as a mini-adult.

(At the same time, I have no problem with Wagner speaking her mind and saying that she wants to win. Apples and oranges, IMO. I hope that Wagner wants both to win and to have fun on the ice.)

I like Ashley. I had noticed her before, but started to follow skating more the year when she presented her Black Swan program. I loved it. I think last season was a disapointment, mainly because she couldn't make her Romeo and Juliet program work the same way as Black Swan and Samson and Delilah programs from previous seasons. She also became more outspoken, which rubbed people the wrong way. I have to admit that I was also annoyed by some of her comments, but I still like her skating and presentation. Technically there are some things that she needs to work on, but I think she has some fire left in her. When it comes to her looks, I find her very pretty. She is pretty in a different way than Gracie Gold, but I find both of these girls absolutely beautiful.

Wow, I'm late to this party. I love Ashley. She's one of my favorites right now. Her skating is certainly not as fluid as some, but her musicality and expression is spot on. Though she's had a few rough skates, she does seem to be fit and well trained. Her music choices are powerful and she is always in a beautiful and appropriate costume. What I particularly admire is her raw determination. At 18, she took control of her own life and training situation and worked hard to make it all work out. And became a 2 time National champion and 2 time Grand Prix final medalist along the way.
What I do wish for her to do this year is to find some way to get rid of the two foots. Her jumps seem powerful enough and she's getting plenty of lift, some I'm not sure what's causing it. And I think her spins have nice positions, but the speed could be improved a bit.
I think counting her out as a possible winner at Nationals this year would be foolish. Any of the top 3 or a well trained Mirai could easily win on any given night, but I'll root for Ashley.

golden411 said:

Wow -- strongly disagree :disagree: that eleven-year-old Lucy Li is cringe-worthy.
I did not cringe over what I saw of her. Quite the opposite in fact.
Although I think she takes golf seriously, my impression was that she does not take herself overly seriously. In the presser that I saw, she did make a comment (I'm paraphrasing) about not being thrilled with high scores. (Of course, it would have been silly for her to say that she wanted to win this year's US Open. If she did not want to have fun out on the course, that would make me cringe.)
And I did find it quite "delightful" that she does not make any pretense of being any age other than eleven years old. During the presser, she was happily consuming an ice cream bar as she answered questions. She wears girlish braids and youthful outfits. I am pleased that she is not trying to present herself as a mini-adult.

(At the same time, I have no problem with Wagner speaking her mind and saying that she wants to win. Apples and oranges, IMO. I hope that Wagner wants both to win and to have fun on the ice.)

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I didn't mean to imply that Lucy Li as a whole distressed me. But that phrase just pushed my buttons. I'm sure you're right about her. All I saw of her was that one feature, and all I heard her say was that one statement. I will be happy to stand corrected.

"I just want to have fun" is the "I just want to do my best."

If you're training 25-30 hours a week, spending thousands of dollars on coaches, choreography, skates, costumes, moving your family around, you don't want to do your best. You want to win. I always roll my eyes when skaters do that. let's be real, everyone wants to win at this level, and skaters (especially women) who are honest about it are seen as obnoxious.

I think this is part of the reason Tara Lipinski got so much hate. She was there to win, no two ways about it.

^Seconded.

I don't know. When an athlete says. "I just want to do my best," etc., to me that is just her or his way of flipping off the reporter for asking a stupid question.

"How did it make you feel when you fell on that triple Lutz?" "I just want to skate and have fun."

Mathman said:

I don't know. When an athlete says. "I just want to do my best," etc., to me that is just her or his way of flipping off the reporter for asking a stupid question.

"How did it make you feel when you fell on that triple Lutz?" "I just want to skate and have fun."

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I liked Yulia's response...
"I trained extra hard and fell specially there"(implied )

Sam-Skwantch said:

I liked Yulia's response...
"I trained extra hard and fell specially there"(implied )

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Some of her interview answers are really quite funny. I suppose you can get away with that sort of thing when you're 15.

UnsaneLily87 said:

"I just want to have fun" is the "I just want to do my best."

If you're training 25-30 hours a week, spending thousands of dollars on coaches, choreography, skates, costumes, moving your family around, you don't want to do your best. You want to win. I always roll my eyes when skaters do that. let's be real, everyone wants to win at this level, and skaters (especially women) who are honest about it are seen as obnoxious.

I think this is part of the reason Tara Lipinski got so much hate. She was there to win, no two ways about it.

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That's what I meant, but you said it miles better.

karne said:

Unfortunately, maybe the backlash over Ashley prevented them doing something similar with the men. Can you imagine the meltdown if they'd said, "No Jeremy, we don't trust you, we're not sending you"?

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I don't think so. The selections were announced for both men and women before there was any backlash against those selections.

Ashley was in a unique situation in that she was the only U.S. skater (besides Davis and White) who had any kind of international presence in the two years leading up to the Sochi Olympics. If the USFSA had already determined that past international results would play a role in the selection, Ashley was the only singles skater that could have been affected.

They could not have left Jeremy Abbott off the team in any case. He was the U.S. champion. Mirai would have gone if she had finished first, or even second, at nationals. The interesting thing is that when it came to the team for worlds, they put Max Aaron ahead of Jason Brown. Based on international results there was no particular reason for doing this (each had won a bronze medal in a Grand Prix event). My guess is that they based the decision on the perception that both of these skaters have potential for the future that ought to be cultivated. They could have done the same for Mirai, sending her to worlds instead of Polina. Evidently they don't regard Mirai as belonging to the "promising up-and-comers" group any more.

Mathman said:

I don't think so. The selections were announced for both men and women before there was any backlash against those selections.

Ashley was in a unique situation in that she was the only U.S. skater (besides Davis and White) who had any kind of international presence in the two years leading up to the Sochi Olympics. If the USFSA had already determined that past international results would play a role in the selection, Ashley was the only singles skater that could have been affected.

They could not have left Jeremy Abbott off the team in any case. He was the U.S. champion. Mirai would have gone if she had finished first, or even second, at nationals. The interesting thing is that when it came to the team for worlds, they put Max Aaron ahead of Jason Brown. Based on international results there was no particular reason for doing this (each had won a bronze medal in a Grand Prix event). My guess is that they based the decision on the perception that both of these skaters have potential for the future that ought to be cultivated. They could have done the same for Mirai, sending her to worlds instead of Polina. Evidently they don't regard Mirai as belonging to the "promising up-and-comers" group any more.

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definitely agree that USFS had decided they were done investing in Mirai and Polina was a better investment for the future. And from that perspective, I kind of get it. USFS has been behind Mirai in some capacity since the end of 2006 and there's really not much to show for it, some World junior medals, a 7th at Worlds when she was in the best shape of her career, a couple GP medals- no wins, no GPF berths, nothing of recent note internationally besides a GP bronze in a weak field. Up against Ashley's results, there was no question. I think they would have sent Mirai had she been second but even then, I would have seen sending Polina as the better move for the future. And I think that's why Polina got the PCS she got in the FS to ensure that she would get that spot.

With Max, I think you're right that there was a belief that they still had hope for his future. I also think last year played in since that was a very defined part of the selection criterion- he was top 10 (7th?) at Worlds, he was National champion. There also seemed like almost an element of we're sorry that you were basically a lock for the Olympic team in October and now we're not sending you so we'll give you Worlds. Lastly, I think they never believed Jeremy would go to Worlds and they wanted to ensure Max kept training at full throttle.

On paper, the most illogical pick was the pairs selection. Denney & Coughlin, yes had better results than Z&B, but neither had a shot in hell of a medal and they definitely didn't have the Ashley resume. Even attaining 3 spots in conjunction with C&S would have basically taken serious almost miraculous alignments of stars.They had no results from the previous season like Max that were supposedly the key to deviating from Nationals results. And Cpughlin's an older skater, trending downward based on Nationals (yes I know the "won" the FS but please) and they were therefore unlikely to be around as long as Z/B. I think they got a similar "we're sorry that you were locks and we can't send you even though we wanted to" consolation prize because they were former USFS darlings with a decently powerful coach.

Mathman said:

I don't know. When an athlete says. "I just want to do my best," etc., to me that is just her or his way of flipping off the reporter for asking a stupid question.

"How did it make you feel when you fell on that triple Lutz?" "I just want to skate and have fun."

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HA!

I must admit I love Ashley's off-ice antics much more than her actual performances, though I do believe her musicality and theatricality are--within a very narrow range--first rate. What I admire most about her on-ice performances is that she appears, to me at least, to reach her full potential given the level of her talents and abilities.

And I love her frankness. I don't drink but she's someone I would love to ask out for a beer to dish the dirt.

WeakAnkles said:

HA!

I must admit I love Ashley's off-ice antics much more than her actual performances, though I do believe her musicality and theatricality are--within a very narrow range--first rate. What I admire most about her on-ice performances is that she appears, to me at least, to reach her full potential given the level of her talents and abilities.

And I love her frankness. I don't drink but she's someone I would love to ask out for a beer to dish the dirt.

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You can invite me, too. I'll drink your beer

desertskates said:

You can invite me, too. I'll drink your beer

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Then the drinks are on you

Mathman said:

I don't think so. The selections were announced for both men and women before there was any backlash against those selections.

Ashley was in a unique situation in that she was the only U.S. skater (besides Davis and White) who had any kind of international presence in the two years leading up to the Sochi Olympics. If the USFSA had already determined that past international results would play a role in the selection, Ashley was the only singles skater that could have been affected.

They could not have left Jeremy Abbott off the team in any case. He was the U.S. champion. Mirai would have gone if she had finished first, or even second, at nationals. The interesting thing is that when it came to the team for worlds, they put Max Aaron ahead of Jason Brown. Based on international results there was no particular reason for doing this (each had won a bronze medal in a Grand Prix event). My guess is that they based the decision on the perception that both of these skaters have potential for the future that ought to be cultivated. They could have done the same for Mirai, sending her to worlds instead of Polina. Evidently they don't regard Mirai as belonging to the "promising up-and-comers" group any more.

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flutzy13 said:

... With Max, I think you're right that there was a belief that they still had hope for his future. I also think last year played in since that was a very defined part of the selection criterion- he was top 10 (7th?) at Worlds, he was National champion. There also seemed like almost an element of we're sorry that you were basically a lock for the Olympic team in October and now we're not sending you so we'll give you Worlds. Lastly, I think they never believed Jeremy would go to Worlds and they wanted to ensure Max kept training at full throttle. ...

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But didn't the backlash re the Nagasu/Wagner decision start as soon as the announcement of the U.S. ladies for Sochi was made in Boston at midday on Sunday?
The men's FS did not start until Sunday afternoon (ETA: in other words, after the announcement of the ladies for Sochi) -- and the official presser announcing Abbott and Brown as the men for Sochi did not take place until Sunday evening.


That said, I just wish that a third Sochi slot had been available for Max. And that a third Worlds slot had been available for Brown.
Given that the official USFS criteria for the Olympics and for Worlds were different, I think that USFS made the right call to divide the assignments between the two men.

(Although I think it is fair to say that Max had seemed like one of the frontrunners for Sochi, I do not think he generally was considered to be a lock. I remember an autumn interview in which the reporter asked a question referring to the Games as if Max definitely would compete there. Max began his answer by saying (I'm paraphrasing), "I hope that I do make it to Sochi." He did not consider himself to be a lock, IMO.)

Mathman said:

I don't think so. The selections were announced for both men and women before there was any backlash against those selections.

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No, the dance, pairs and ladies was announced the night before the men's long program; the men were announced during the gala.

Mathman said:

They could not have left Jeremy Abbott off the team in any case. He was the U.S. champion.

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Yes, they could have. The only selection that the Champion is guaranteed is Worlds. The issue is that if ever there was a case for going against National Champion going to the Olympics, it was the men. Because let's face it: what happened in Sochi with Jeremy surprised no-one.

Mathman said:

The interesting thing is that when it came to the team for worlds, they put Max Aaron ahead of Jason Brown. Based on international results there was no particular reason for doing this (each had won a bronze medal in a Grand Prix event).

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The Worlds selection criteria included last season's Senior Bs, 4CCs, Nats and Worlds. Max had a Senior B gold and silver, National Champion, 4th at 4CCs, and 7th at Worlds to Jason's...9th at Nats.

I think I was probably the only Jason fan who wasn't immediately upset and angry that Jason wasn't on the Worlds team. I bet if you'd asked Max, he'd have swapped assignments with Jason in a heartbeat.