Why doesn't tech panel use slo-mo to distinguish "e"? | Golden Skate

Why doesn't tech panel use slo-mo to distinguish "e"?

S

sorcerer

Final Flight
Joined
May 1, 2007
This may have been occasionally discussed on this forum already, but I can't help thinking just why doesn't the ISU tech panel use slow motion video to distinguish the wrong edge?
Everyone wants fair-play, "e" calls should be agreed by the majority of spectators and TV viewers, just like the in/online/out with tennis.

If the wrong-edge calls stay the same as they are now, figure skating fans will sooner or later get sick and tired of reading/hearing like so-and-so sneaks away with his/her flutz not downgraded, or so-and-so obviously lips in slow replay but always gets away with it because he/she is prejudged to have the right jumps, ...things like that.
Between some narrow-minded fans these are already ending up in ugly web fights denouncing each other's favorite skater persistently. We hate that, they are to blame, but we can't deny that ISU made some of the cause by not being articulate.

I hate to see the skaters get accusations from malice anti-fans when the fault is in the tech review system itself.
ISU should be strict, objective wherever possible, free from being doubted of bias.

Slow replay definitely is the MUST item IMO, especially if the ISU is planning in near future to apply the so-called Zayak rule to the flutz as flip, and lip as lutz.

What is hindering the tech panel from slo-mo video? Does it take too much time?
What if they show the vid to the audeince in the arena while they are taking their time to check the "e"s?
Are they afraid of too much ambiguity spilt all over rousing boos?

PS:
My intention is not, definitely, discussing about specific skaters, no.
Every skater, espcially when he/she will be in process of fixing his/her wrong edge toward next season, is liable to be the victim of the lack of accountability caused by not using slow motion.
The more the effort, the more he/she will need precise ratification that rewards his/her effort.
 
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Good point. Who can ever figure out why the ISU does or doesn't do anything? I don't even think they know sometimes.

Must be terribly frustrating for the skaters - to make a difficult and, yes, dangerous, sport even more confusing and difficult by changing the rules all the time. :banging:
 
I believe SloMo is used for judges on their demand only. I also believe the ISU does not want the public to get too familiar with the inner workings of the scoring system. It's called Fear of Scandal. Otherwise the Tech Asst is the word of God.

At the US Open last September, I watched a match which I was calling Out from one of the balls landing. I was certain it was Out. But in Tennis they do show SloMo to the public and it showed that the ball was touching the line. Well, I was wrong and of course there was no scandal and no arguments between the fans.
Not only sensible but in line with well run organization. Downside is there is no fun watching McEnroe arguing with the Referee.

Joe
 
sorcerer said:
Slow replay definitely is the MUST item IMO, especially when ISU is planning in near future to apply the so-called Zayak rule to the flutz as flip, and lip as lutz.
Click to expand...
Has there been an official announcement of this yet, or is it just under discussion?

This alone would do more to eliminate Flutzes and lips than any other rule change. If you are a top skater who flutzes, and if you plan two Lutzes and two flips in your program, this will absolutely kill you. Your two flutzes would cost you 11 points right off the top. (More, if you got an edge call and a Zayak penalty.)
 
Good grief!! Talk about complicated!

Deliberately keeping the public in the dark, if indeed that's what they're doing and it seems likely to me they are, is not in the best interest of the sport, IMHO.
 
I remember reading somewhere that judges are not allowed to use slow motion. This actually works in the skaters' favor. If they can't tell the wrong edge was used in regular replay, they have to assume the jump was good.
 
Mathman said:
Has there been an official announcement of this yet, or is it just under discussion?
Click to expand...
I had the notion fixed in my mind since I read often in skating fan sites that the ISU has it on the roadmap and that they'll do it in something like two or three years, etc.
I suppose this prospect may have come from insiders, but of course it's nothing official at the moment.

I have corrected my wrong English in my post.
My deep apologies.
Nevertheless, I'll search for the source of this prospect which is now popular among fans in Japan.
 
sorcerer said:
I had the notion fixed in my mind since I read often in skating fan sites that the ISU has it on the roadmap and that they'll do it in something like two or three years, etc.
I suppose this prospect may have come from insiders, but of course it's nothing official at the moment.

I have corrected my wrong English in my post.
My deep apologies.
Nevertheless, I'll search for the source of this prospect which is now popular among fans in Japan.
Click to expand...
What a boost to Figure Skating this would be to get the public interested in the Sport as it is in other sports.

Joe
 
PolymerBob said:
I remember reading somewhere that judges are not allowed to use slow motion. This actually works in the skaters' favor. If they can't tell the wrong edge was used in regular replay, they have to assume the jump was good.
Click to expand...
That is the rule now. The question is, should it be changed?

BTW, the tech specialist must call an edge good if it is "too close to call" in real time without a replay. But the judges can still take off GOE if they individually thought the edge was cheated.
 
Replay is used for both cheated jumps and wrong edge calls. Cheated jump reviews may be done in slow motion.

Wrong edge calls are reviewed at normal speed.

I think the reason for not using slow motion for edge calls is that it is thought it is impossible to determine the exact edge at the instant of takeoff, no matter what you do, and there will always be some uncertainty. So if slow motion is needed to make the call then the change of edge call will likely be unreliable. *
 
gsrossano said:
Replay is used for both cheated jumps and wrong edge calls. Cheated jump reviews may be done in slow motion.

Wrong edge calls are reviewed at normal speed.

I think the reason for not using slow motion for edge calls is that it is thought it is impossible to determine the exact edge at the instant of takeoff, no matter what you do, and there will always be some uncertainty. So if slow motion is needed to make the call then the change of edge call will likely be unreliable...
Click to expand...
Thanks for the clarification. I think the same thing is true about underrotations. You are landing, turning, shifting your weight, one part of the blade down then another, plus the camera angle might be wrong -- it seems like it iwould be impossible to come to a judgement about the exact amount of underrotaion, even in stop-frame.

About edge calls, Michelle Kwan's Lutz would be a perfect example of the diffiuclties that tech specialists face. Sometimes it looked OK, sometimes a fraction over on the inside, sometimes wobbling over one way or the other at the last second, sometimes on the flat. But never so bad or so good that you could really go to the bank with it.
 
Mathman said:
it seems like it iwould be impossible to come to a judgement about the exact amount of underrotaion, even in stop-frame.
Click to expand...

In reviews of cheats, the jump is often reviewed in slow motion and the video is stopped on the frame where the toe contacts the ice on the landing to see the position of the blade when it contacts the ice.
 
Mathman said:
Can you determine this exact moment by looking at the still pictures in sequence?
Click to expand...

Generally yes, with super slow motion. Thought it does depend on the quality of the video feed, and the position of the foot relative to the camera angle. As always, if the video is not conclusive, the skater gets the benefit of the doubt. That is, if something cannot be definitively decided wrong, the call goes in favor of the skater.
 
Much above tells us what the judges do. How about the Original Question:

Why doesn't the Tech Panel use Slo Mo to distinguish 'e'? It's not always easy to see from where one is sitting.

and my question:
Why is Slo Mo kept secret from the public?

Joe
 
Joesitz said:
Much above tells us what the judges do. How about the Original Question:

Why doesn't the Tech Panel use Slo Mo to distinguish 'e'? It's not always easy to see from where one is sitting.

and my question:
Why is Slo Mo kept secret from the public?

Joe
Click to expand...

My comments above refer to the Technical Panel. I am a data operator. Part of my job is to run the video replay for the TP during the reviews.

I wasn't aware the slow motion capability was a secret. Maybe I missed the memo, but no one ever told me it was a secret.

Just because it is not common knowledge among the fans doesn't mean it's a secret. It just means there is yet something else about which the fans are oblivious.
 
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What I was alluding to was that huge score electronic box in the arena. It does show replays (one horrible example is Sara Hughes fall from all pts of view in 2003 Worlds) Never does it show in any arena a closeup of a wrong edge takeoff. Sometimes on TV several days later, and only of certain skaters.

I don't see why the public has to ask for this? And if they did, would they get it?

It's all part, imo, of keeping the public moderately informed. Have the number of spectators been dwindlying?

Joe
 
Joesitz said:
What I was alluding to was that huge score electronic box in the arena. It does show replays (one horrible example is Sara Hughes fall from all pts of view in 2003 Worlds) Never does it show in any arena a closeup of a wrong edge takeoff. Sometimes on TV several days later, and only of certain skaters.
Click to expand...

The video and replay that shows in the arena during a competition comes from a different feed than the Technical Panel. At major competitions there is a dedicated camera at one end of the judges' podium or the other. This camera provides the feed to the TP's video system and is only used for that purpose.

The video display in the arena comes from the TV broadcaster's feed, or another source, and they control what is shown in the arena on the scoreboard. What tricks they choose to show and whether they have slow motion, or feel like using it, is up to them.

In any event, the scoreboard video is run independent of the Technical Panel and the TP has nothing to do with that goes up on the big screen. I suspect whoever directs what is shown on the scoreboard probably thinks showing changes of edge is not a very high priority, and probably wouldn't think to show it unless a call proved controversial or changed a result. After all, the purpose of the video replay on the scoreboard is mainly intended to fill time before the marks come up. Who knows where they get their ideas of what the public wants to see!

In smaller competitions (Sectionals and below) the video feed comes from the competition videographer. They also provide the feed to IceNetworks. Where the videographer is set up varies from competition to competition, depending on the logistics in the particular arena.
 
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gsrossano said:
After all, the purpose of the video replay on the scoreboard is mainly intentded to fill time before the marks come up. Who knows where they get their ideas of what the public wants to see!
Click to expand...
A popular choice around here is the red ball and the blue ball playing hockey. If your color wins you get a chance at a prize. :)
 
gsrossano said:
Replay is used for both cheated jumps and wrong edge calls. Cheated jump reviews may be done in slow motion.

Wrong edge calls are reviewed at normal speed.

I think the reason for not using slow motion for edge calls is that it is thought it is impossible to determine the exact edge at the instant of takeoff, no matter what you do, and there will always be some uncertainty. So if slow motion is needed to make the call then the change of edge call will likely be unreliable. *
Click to expand...
Thank you very much for your informative posts!

But still additional questions occur.

So, is it right to understand that the Tech Panel is given the slo-mo video but they view it only for the underrotations, and don't use it to distinguish the "e"?
They are determined to determine "e"s at normal speed, yes?

And its reason...true, slo-mos are still in uncertainty.
But isn't it relatively better than just at normal speed?
Sure, stop-frames can become arbitrary on where to stop, but half-slow speed is doubtlessly more reliable than normal speed, IMO.
The fact that uncertainty may remain doesn't justfy neglecting what would be relatively better in certainty, isn't it?

Mathman said:
BTW, the tech specialist must call an edge good if it is "too close to call" in real time without a replay. But the judges can still take off GOE if they individually thought the edge was cheated.
Click to expand...
But that rarely happens, in reality judges simply follow the TP on "e"s; if the TP doesn't call the "e", they never seem to deduct on their own...
This is only my impression, I havn't time to verify all those protocols.
And the important point is, fans get such impressions. :)
 
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