Frustration With Quality of Skating

[TechMom]

I mostly lurk on this forum - very seldom post, but in this case simply need to vent about what we've been seeing on television this week. This is in no way meant to trash or flame any individual skaters, only to offer up my opinions, which are ONLY my opinions. That said, I submit...

When it comes to World level skating, the following skaters need to move on to the professional skating realm...
Michael Weiss - no dependable quad, and I can't remember see too many clean programs. He needs to hang it up and let the youngsters have a chance. If there had been stronger youngsters to challenge, he'd be gone already. On the basis of what I saw last night, Todd could have had another US Championship if he was still competing.
Angela N - has had her run at the top and in my opinion will never reach Sasha or Michelle's level, but is an absolutely gorgeous skater and should flourish as a professional. She reminds me of Kadavy.
Amber Corwin - always a bridesmaid-reminds me of Tonia Kwiakowski.

Other remarks
All the young guns in the Men's - you guys keep trying - maybe one of you will be the next Boitano.
All the Pairs - why do we even have pairs competition anymore? The US hasn't had a superlative pair since Tai and Randy. Hopefully the Russian coaches that now live and work in the US have some future US world beaters in Novice and Junior- I sincerely hope so. All the senior pairs currently skating should just hang it up. (Sorry guys, I know you work hard,but that's how I see it.)
Tim - I hope you get your equipment/consistency problems worked out - you ARE alot better than that!

There - I've got it out of my system now. Please don't take me TOO seriously.

 

[Ptichka]

The US hasn't had a superlative pair since Tai and Randy.

What about Ina & Zimmerman?! They were a superb pair; I think if they started skating with Moskvina earlier, they could have had more success.

Unfortunately, though, I do agree with you on the state of US pair skating.

 

[Tonichelle]

yes that's just what professional skating is for, to get rid of the hasbeens

If they didn't succeed as an amatuer, with the state of pro skating now, they wouldn't fair any better as a pro.

 

[Jaana]

> TechMom
Michael Weiss - no dependable quad, and I can't remember see too many clean programs. He needs to hang it up and let the youngsters have a chance. If there had been stronger youngsters to challenge, he'd be gone already. On the basis of what I saw last night, Todd could have had another US Championship if he was still competing. >

Maybe I´m remembering wrong, but I did not exactly get the impression from SP reports that there were a lot of men having a dependable quad, LOL... As far as I remember Todd did not have one either. Anyway, it will be interesting to read what the results are after the freeskate.

Marjaana

 

[Grgranny]

Sending them to the pro's is saying goodbye to them. Hardly ever see any pro's any more. Only one or two comps.
I have to disagree on the pairs as I thought I & Z were pretty darn good. I still think they would have been judged better at the Olympics is there was fair judging. Otherwise, we don't really have much in the way of pairs but keep hoping someone will turn up.
I do welcome Techmom to the forum and hope you will post more often. I like reading all the posts even if I do disagree with them.

 

[TechMom]

Ptichka, yes, I&Z are good and so are Meno and Sand, but neither was ever in serious contention for a gold medal or come close to Babilonia and Gardner. M&S got their world silver under the "old" judging system as a career reward, but I give them credit - they are great professional skaters. I agree with you that I&Z would have had a much better opportunity if Tamara had gotten to them sooner.

Janna, you are correct that alot of men don't have a consistent quad and that Todd also did not have one, but I think he's still head and shoulders above anyone that competed in nationals last night. In fact, I think Todd could still beat Weiss even if Michael had a clean quad because the overall quality of his skating is much more polished. Actually, I wish the quad wasn't the "be all, do all" to success - there's so much more to skating than just jumping.

 

[Grgranny]

I certainly have to agree that Todd was so much better than the others. I also agree about the quad. I sometimes wonder if they shouldn't just not allow the quads. I would rather see them have a good overall skate than put so much emphasis on the jumps.

 

[Tonichelle]

if that's the case then lets add Michelle Kwan into the pro world... after all she's not doing 3/3s in her programs and *gasp* she's not first after the short at Nationals.

 

[TechMom]

Actually, Tonichelle, you have a point. I did not include Michelle on the list because in the women's comps, because you don't absolutely have to have a triple-triple to win (yet - but it helps), and she's still competitive at the highest world level. I actually thought she WOULD have retired by now, but am pleased that she's doing it her own way. In my opinion, if Sasha is "on", she can beat Michelle, but that's "if". Sasha hasn't yet proved she has the mental control, but she's definitely improved this season, so who knows how Nationals will turn out. Another thing that worries me about Michelle is that she has yet to compete under the "new" scoring system, which will probably be in effect in 2006. On the basis of what I saw last night, I think Michelle will get 2nd this year, but you never know. If Sasha wins Nationals, she's going to get a HUGE dose of self-confidence and then I don't think anyone will stop her, not even Michelle.

 

[Mathman]

Hi, TechMom, thanks for posting and for starting this interesting thread.

I have to agree with Toni and the others who have pointed out how few opportunities there are for skaters to "go pro" any more. Especially skaters like Angela Nikodinov and Amber Corwin who do not bring world and Olymoic medals to the table.

Personally, I don't mind it when we see a lot of splats in these amateur contests. These guys and gals are pushing themselves right to the limit if what they can do, so I expect to see falls and other mistakes.

I can't wait for the free skate to see if Johnny Weir can hold up. He skates like a dancer.

About Michael Weiss, I have to give him credit for at least attempting a quad (has he ever landed one that wasn't two-fotted?) He probably could have won first place by skating more conservatively, after Tmothy's disastrous outing.

Mathman

 

[brenlynn]

All the Pairs - why do we even have pairs competition anymore? The US hasn't had a superlative pair since Tai and Randy. Hopefully the Russian coaches that now live and work in the US have some future US world beaters in Novice and Junior- I sincerely hope so. All the senior pairs currently skating should just hang it up. (Sorry guys, I know you work hard,but that's how I see it.)

i have a hard time with this statement because honestly i feel that this is a rebuilding time with US pairs. it's only been one year since our top team went pro, so i really don't think it's as horrible as everyone is making it out to be. i say give teams like orscher & lucash, don & hunt 1/2 more seasons tops and they'll be standing on that top step of the national podium and only gaining momentum from there on. they are both new and young teams... so i really just think we are in a stage of rebuilding. for many years we got used to having well known and internationally successful teams in meno & sand and ina & dunjen/zimmerman - but remember those teams, mainly m&s and i&d were always pushing one another to get better, much like what has been going on in dance in the past few seasons with belbin & agosto and naomi & peter. give it time, i think some of the younger/new teams have many good qualities.

but i suppose that may be my opinion!

 

[JonnyCoop]

Amber Corwin - always a bridesmaid-reminds me of Tonia Kwiakowski

Tonia Kwiatkowski at least ended up making 3 World teams before she called it quits, finishing in the top 10 at 2 of those Worlds. This is more than I think Corwin can accomplish.


All the Pairs - why do we even have pairs competition anymore? The US hasn't had a superlative pair since Tai and Randy. Hopefully the Russian coaches that now live and work in the US have some future US world beaters in Novice and Junior- I sincerely hope so. All the senior pairs currently skating should just hang it up. (Sorry guys, I know you work hard,but that's how I see it.)

So the USFSA should just say, "Sorry, guys, no more competition at Nationals till a couple of you can manage to get downright SUPERLATIVE??" I agree that we have a major problem in this area, though; it has been my contention since about 1989 that all I really ask out of the pair that finishes 3rd is that they do not absolutely MORTIFY me when I see them on television, and some years it's been a case of If this was 3rd, then deliver us from 4th! Part of the problem is this mentality wherein these unions end up dissolving after one or two seasons because "Oh, we didn't make the World team after only being together for 5 months, let's split up and move on and try again." We need to figure out what the Canadians are doing; they have had a lot of pairs that were together less than a year but still managed to look polished and get decent results right from the start. Admittedly there are quite a few unions out there that have certainly been together long enough to be skating better than they are, but as I said, the splitting up is only part of the problem. As to the rest, who knows??

 

[Rgirl]

JohnnyCoop,
ITA agree about US teams tending to break up too soon. The other night for the pairs SP, it seemed as if every other pair was "Used to be with so-and-so for a year, but now she's with Joe A and hes' with Mary B." It's like musical chairs, except it's musical pairs.

I think there's something in the American psyche of individualism that does not lend itself to pairs skating. For example, only when John Baldwin had failed to make the World team after about 10 Nationals did he consider pairs, and he's even built for pairs.

While I agree with Techmom that the US hasn't had a great pairs team since Tai and Randy--and I'd include Kitty and Peter, Olympic silver medalists, albeit probably because Tai and Randy couldn't compete because of Randy's injury [EDIT: Lousy sentence--please see rewrite on p2]--I don't agree at all that the US pairs program is useless. While it's definitely in a slump, often it's out of slumps when positive changes are made. Maybe the USFSA will take a closer look at the US pairs scene to see what if can do to get teams with potential together in the first place and get them improving sooner and faster. Also, these athletes are paying a lot of money for coaching and they wouldn't be doing it if they didn't love what they were doing. A top 10 finish at Worlds may look to some fans like, "What's the use?" but to that team may be reaching their goal.

Recently Jenny Kirk said she's definitely going to start training pairs next year with Fedor Andreev. Whether they succeed or not is not the issue for me. I'm just glad that these two beautiful skaters who happen to have some limitations as singles are willing to give pairs a try. As Plushenko was quoted as saying, he could never do pairs because he couldn't stand having to depend on somebody else for his success or failure. Plus it's tough to do pairs in the US because there's not the fan interest and financial support.

However, even though I disagree with you, Techmom, I'm always glad to hear someone's heartfelt opinions and hope you post more often. Clearly you feel passionately about skating and I think that's great.
Rgirl

 

[brenlynn]

Recently Jenny Kirk said she's definitely going to start training pairs next year with Fedor Andreev.

jenny and fedor have been training together since the beginning of this training season because of a suggestion from richard callahan. they were supposed to make their debut together at the holiday festival on ice show in toronto this past december but with techincal difficulties that pushed the start time of the show back several hours, they were too tired to do so. i am excitied to see these two perform together, but because of their citizenship issues, it may be several years before they ever compete in the olympics, if they ever make it that far! they are two of my favorite skaters, so i cannot wait to see what they can do together.

 

[TechMom]

You're right, JohnnyCoop, Tonia K. did have more on the ball than Amber. (...but I give Amber props for coming out and giving it her all last night - no offense to either skater intended).

With regard to pairs, perhaps what I should have said was that it would be better not to televise the competition, rather than not have it at all. You could say that we are in a rebuilding phase, but I think the root of the problem is in the culture of the US itself. Nobody seems to tough it out and work thru their problems. It's too easy to grab a new partner. I also don't think the US pairs coaches, as good as they are, are as good as the Russian pairs coaches. The USSR had pairs training down to a science, whereas most US pairs have had to reinvent the wheel each time and develop their own methods. At least now skaters can earn money to support themselves without losing their eligibility, so maybe we'll see some exciting teams in the future. Jenny and Fedor are DEFINITELY going to be an interesting pairI can't wait to see what they can do!

Thank you all so much for your acceptance and willingness to "agree to disagree". I haven't posted much at all since Iskater bought the FSW chat and started charging for it. This thread has been refreshing!

 

[Bijoux]

About Peter and Kitty

Hi rgirl, I have enjoyed your posts but I think Peter and Kitty were a fine pairs team and won that silver medal. I don't think it was a gift for Tai and Randy's bad luck at Lake Placid. It's kind of not making sense.

Mathman, thanks for pointing out that the pros are few now and they all had those medals. When you think of all the skaters that came up with Scott Ham who medaled in 1984, and are still in the show/comp circuit, it's amazing.

Bijoux

 

[Rgirl]

Re: About Peter and Kitty

Hi rgirl, I have enjoyed your posts but I think Peter and Kitty were a fine pairs team and won that silver medal. I don't think it was a gift for Tai and Randy's bad luck at Lake Placid. It's kind of not making sense.
Bijoux

Hi Bijoux,
First of all, welcome to Golden Skate! That was nice of you to say you enjoy my posts, but I also appreciate your constructive criticism. I just reread the sentence about Kitty and Peter to which you referred and you're right, it makes no sense. In fact it's a horribly written sentence!

So I'm going to give it another try here: I think Kitty and Peter Carruthers were just as great as Tai and Randy. I think Tai and Randy had a more glamorous style, plus they had that World win over the Russians, which was a very big deal. But Kitty and Peter had incredible technique and especially when they joined SOI, they became dazzling performers. We'll never know what the outcome of the 1984 Sarajevo Olympics would have been if Tai and Randy had been able to compete healthy, but we do know that Kitty and Peter won an Olympic silver medal, second only to the top Russian pairs team of Valova and Vasiliev, and also winning over many great pairs teams, including another Russian team and two East German teams.

I hope that came out better. Thanks for pointing out a sentence that was the equivalent of a splat.

Also, Brenlynn,
Thanks for clarifying the situation with Jenny and Fedor. I knew they had worked together this season, but I thought it was more on a trial basis and that next season was when they would work at it more full-time. But that was based on the info I got via a "fluff piece" interview that was clearly taped early in the season. Obviously your information is what's accurate and up-to-date.

I too think Jenny and Fedor would look gorgeous on the ice together. Plus I think Richard Callaghan has been coaching long enough that he knows great potential when he sees it. I hope this doesn't come out sounding wrong, but Jenny is so beautiful that sometimes I think the only thing missing is someone to present her--sort of the way Sergei presented Katia. Not that Jenny doesn't hold her own, I just think Jenny would look incredible flying above the ice in a beautiful pairs lift. True the citizenship thing would affect Olympic eligibility, but that's not the only reason to skate. Also, hopefully, the IOC will someday make allowances for pairs and ice dancing, although I think it would probably open up a can of worms for other team sports. Still, I'd pay just to see Jenny and Fedor skate around together, lol.
Rgirl

 

[TechMom]

Rgirl, you read my mind - I was thinking about G&G too - and Fedor does have a G&G connection.

Does Fedor have Canadian citizenship?

Shame on me for not including Kitty and Peter. They were not among my personal favorites, but they accomplished more in the world and Olympic medals department than any other US pairs, and they matured into fantastic professional skaters. If Tai and Randy hadn't withdrawn in 1980, the judges probably would have put them in 2nd. Even though they were the reigning world champs ('cause Irina Rodnina took 1979 off to have a baby and did not compete in worlds), Rodnina and Zaitsev were the reigning Olympic champs. Block judging being what it was at that time, Tai and Randy were still behind the eight ball, but they would have given them a run for their money.