I Miss the Artistic Programs

[Proxy]

I would have no problem with Alina winning if she got massive technical score and PCS that truly reflects her unpolished ability, and the combined total were greater than the combined total of skaters with other positives and weaknesses. But it's been pointed out many times, she deserves all the technical points and for working the system, but she does not deserve the components scores. She is not a complete skater.

But then you have to remember this is not an Alina problem only. Evgenia does not deserve the components marks she was receiving the last couple of years either. She got beat at her own game.

 

[Shayuki]

I would have no problem with Alina winning if she got massive technical score and PCS that truly reflects her unpolished ability, and the combined total were greater than the combined total of skaters with other positives and weaknesses. But it's been pointed out many times, she deserves all the technical points and for working the system, but she does not deserve the components scores. She is not a complete skater.

But then you have to remember this is not an Alina problem only. Evgenia does not deserve the components marks she was receiving the last couple of years either. She got beat at her own game.

So the thing there is that while Alina's PCS is a bit too high(But not as much as people imply), Medvedeva's e flutz wasn't called here which would mean that her 7.60 point Lutz becomes about a 3.20 point Lutz. And as such, it really wouldn't have changed the placements had she received less PCS.

 

[Mista Ekko]

It's just becoming kind of a factory at the moment

I don't blame skaters or coaches, They're doing their best

It's the system that has flaws, The Judges who misuse the system or don't save it from itself, And federations
who oversee that this situation keeps going for whatever is their benefit at the moment, More or less

 

[whatif]

There is Art on Ice, or Stars on Ice. Go and enjoy, OP.
But this is sport, so leave it be.

 

[Mista Ekko]

There is Art on Ice, or Stars on Ice. Go and enjoy, OP.
But this is sport, so leave it be.

It's Sport + Art (or supposed to be) And that's how it's scored too,
The OP has total validity to their wishes and can keep expressing them

 

[chopinskate]

There is Art on Ice, or Stars on Ice. Go and enjoy, OP.
But this is sport, so leave it be.

So what's your opinion on ice dance?

 

[Ophelia]

Men, Pairs, and Ice Dance all had wonderfully artistic programs.

 

[whatif]

So what's your opinion on ice dance?

Not sport and should be removed as Olympic discipline.

- - - Updated - - -

It's Sport + Art (or supposed to be) And that's how it's scored too,
The OP has total validity to their wishes and can keep expressing them

According to whom?

 

[chopinskate]

Not sport and should be removed as Olympic discipline.

:confused2:

 

[bostonskatefan]

I totally agree.

Before these Olympics began, the NBC Olympic Channel showed skating from the previous Olympics, all disciplines. I was captivated by how beautiful some of those old programs were and confirmed how much I hate what the new scoring system has done to the sport.

There is a beauty in holding perfect edges for longer than two seconds that can't be matched by frenzied footwork.

I thought we had already been through all this quad craziness back in the Timothy Goebbel days. Guess not.

I really appreciate how the sport has evolved, but it's NOT all about the jumps. And after watching Alina's jump fest, I really hope they re-do the COP to not permit all the backloading. She has the moves but the program was a hot mess artistically.

I feel so much better now. Thanks for letting me vent!!!

 

[Ladskater]

Entirely a matter of opinion. See, for me the current crop of ladies are artistic enough and mesmerizing to watch - Miyahara, Kostner, Medvedeva who I'm starting to warm up to, Wagner etc. Yes, there are more difficult jumps these days which affects choreo and interpretation, but it's hardly fair to diss all current skaters' programs as 'not real art'. With PCS being more or less subjective, I fully support a balance between the artistic and the technical side.
On an unrelated note, I'm curious if you've got any ladies favorites from outside the US?

Of course I have many favorite skaters outside of North America. By the way Karen Magnussen is a Canadian skater - where I'm from! i'm just from the "old school" days of figure skating.

 

[Ladskater]

I'm not saying there are no artistic programs today, certainly the Japanese ladies are exquisite skaters. I just find sometimes the jumps take up so much of the program that the other elements are kind of rushed through or not given enough detail. Even Kurt commented on that point the other night. I enjoyed Carolina Kostner's program - Debussy "Afternoon of a Faun" one of my favorite music scores for figure skating. It was a treat to see a skater really interpreting the music.

 

[Proxy]

This is kind of a pointless statement IMO. You're totally opening the door for someone to use your exact same argument against you and tell you to go watch ballet?

No, because ballet isn't a sport at all. That's what makes figure skating great. It's half art, half sport. There are a lot of athletic contests you can watch and lots of different artistic performances you can watch. Figure skating uniquely blends the two. That's what makes it so beautiful. Technically, skaters should stay strong with their jumps and spins and levels. They should try to innovate. They should do everything they can to maximize the technical HALF of the score. And then they should also have strong skating skills, quality edges, finish and hold moves with the blade, great lines, carriage, total packaging. They should be able to interpret the music and perform for the audience. They should do all of these things and more to maximize the OTHER HALF of their score, and may the skater with the best combined score win.

When the components scores are ridiculously inflated and not judged seriously, suddenly you have figure jumping. Skaters can push the boundaries technically. They can score higher and higher the more tricks they can do. But they cannot keep scoring higher and higher components scores relative to skaters who don't possess those qualities.

As a result, you get a lot of young, unpolished skaters who are great jumpers and now they win everything. Zagitova is a terrific jumper and she should be rewarded with very high base values, probably not as high GOEs as someone like Kaetlyn or Sakamoto. She should have nowhere near the PCS as Evgenia, who should have nowhere near the PCS as someone like Miyahara, or Carolina--but only if she goes clean. As you saw in this competition, Carolina can score high components even when she doesn't deserve it, and that's a problem too.

 

[Mista Ekko]

According to whom?

I can't have a discussion about something with someone who won't admit obvious things...

 

[draqq]

Yes, the technical mark has come to outweigh the component marks under IJS. Here are a few reasons why:

- TES has no max. PCS has a max. So if you're a skater, what would you work on more just by default?

- TES also is far more variable. One popped quad can mean a loss of 10 points in base value and the loss of positive GOEs. On the flipside, replacing a 2A with a clean quad is a boost of at least 6-7 points; also, learning to get +1 or +2 GOEs on just your triples can also net you about 5-10 points in bonus TES.

Compare that to trying to improve your components by 6-10 points, which is much, much harder (and PCS is worth even less in the short program). So if you're skater, what would you work on more?

- The range with which judges mark top skaters in PCS is getting thinner. It's almost all mid 8s to mid 9s now, no matter how well the skaters perform technically really. We all know skaters who fall or pop but still get pretty much the same PCS within a 3-point margin or so. This smaller range means that the advantage that a skater gets for being more "artistic", however you choose to define it, is become thinner as well.

- All considered, the PCS mark has become, in my view, just another base value mark for the most part. If you perform difficult transitions with speed across the ice, you'll get higher PCS just on the criteria for choreography/transitions/skating skills alone. The performance/interpretation marks pretty much goes along with the ride so long as you have a relatively clean performance.

In the grand scheme of a program, how well the skater moves with the music, feels the phrasing and accents in the music, and expresses the music through their face are just minor blips in the scoring, when you compare it to the supposedly far more egregious mistake of popping/underrotating a jump in singles or losing twizzle/step levels in ice dance.

 

[Shandy]

I'm greatly looking forward to Alyona Kostornaya's development. She's so lovely and graceful in her interpretation even as a junior (those extensions! the hand positions!), and while her jumps aren't perfect yet, in a few years I just know she'll be a legendary complete package.

 

[GrandmaCC]

What ever happened to the really artistic programs the ladies used to skate? Kurt says it's now called a component mark. I don't know, I miss the beautiful programs of Karen Magnussen, Janet Lynn, Dorothy Hamill and the list goes on. Sure, these ladies only did double jumps, but they connected to the music and made you feel something. They were magical as they floated across the ice weaving a spell. It seems to be now more about the jumps and not much about the connecting steps. I loved watching Karen Magnussen do an Ina Bauer into a double Axel jump and her famous spiral went on forever around the rink as she changed an edge. Just like I don't really care about the quad the men are doing, I'd rather watch an artistic skater any day - male or female. Give me the "good old days" watching skaters like Karen Magnussen and Toller Cranston!

Ice Dance. Watch it.

There, solved your problem!

 

[plushyfan]

I think those of us who like artistic programs are relegated to watching Youtube. To me there are flashes of artistry, but most of the programs look the same. There are a few exceptions.

or watching the gala exhibitions..

 

[plushyfan]

confirmed how much I hate what the new scoring system has done to the sport.

I'm with you. Especially with pair and ice dance... I can watch with joy the top 6-7 pairs..