Is the so-called “skating reputation” ruining Skating?

[Sylvia]

Yes, it is nice to have consistent skater but I also think a skater's scores should based upon their performance. If Joannie or Caroline skated a completely clean program tomorrow, then they deserve higher PCS scores over someone like Yu-Na or Mao who skated a less than perfect performance.

But PCS isn't just about "skating clean."

Mathman posted this link on the previous page to the ISU document that lists the characteristics for the 5 different program components being judged: http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152077-169293-64120-0-file,00.pdf

 

[silverlake22]

But PCS isn't just about "skating clean."

Mathman posted this link on the previous page to the ISU document that lists the characteristics for the 5 different program components being judged: http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152077-169293-64120-0-file,00.pdf

That doesn't make sense though because if there's a protocol for PCS why did Joannie's PCS become 5 points higher in 2 weeks during a bad freeskate?

 

[BlackAxel]

But PCS isn't just about "skating clean."

Mathman posted this link on the previous page to the ISU document that lists the characteristics for the 5 different program components being judged: http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152077-169293-64120-0-file,00.pdf

Yeah I understand that "skating clean" isnt really a part of PCS. However, it sure does influence the minds of judges if a skater sckates clean as opposed to making mistakes. Take Virtue/Moir and Savchenko/Szolkowy for example. i believe they both recieved 10s (if no 9.75 or something) and the fact that they skated a clean and perfect program helped them to garner such a score. Of course V/M may of had a boost wile at SC, Savchenko/Szolkowy are German and thus didnt skate in their home country.

 

[figurejennah]

There have been a lot of complaints about Yu-Na and Plushenko being over-scored.

Well, it's just too sad to see people thinking that Yuna receives high scores due to her "reputation" only, and her name is always mentioned in these types of threads.

First of all, Yuna had no reputation to begin with. Scott Hamilton did say that Yuna popped out of no where from Korea, and this is very true. Since Junior years, if anyone had reputation, that is Mao, not Yuna. The media praised Mao for doing "3A" and everyone basically went crazy over Mao. Even ESPN commentators had said that Mao was the best 15 year old skater in the world who couldn't go to the olympics due to her age. Yuna in my opinion was just cruising quietly, and she had no media attention at all until she went to the seniors. She beat Mao in Junior worlds, but I think even then she was underestimated and no reputation.

Now, let's not forget that Yuna only won her world champion title in 2009. Until then, she set numerous world records and won GPF twice, but her PCS usually were always lower than skaters like Mao. (Not to mention her so called "Reputation" was only "world championship bronze medalist.") If you can't believe me, go back and check the protocols because even if Yuna had higher TES, her PCS was pretty lower than others. Remember, Yuna lost 2008 World Champion gold medal by 2 points or so, and her PCS was much lower than Mao in LP, although her TES was the highest.

I think Yuna has consistently shown us since 2007 worlds that she COULD receive world record breaking scores even without any reputation. She was only 16, came from a country that has no influence whatsoever over this particular sport, and set a world record in short program.

So to answer your question, my answer is NO, at least about this particular skater.

 

[gkelly]

Yeah I understand that "skating clean" isnt really a part of PCS. However, it sure does influence the minds of judges if a skater sckates clean as opposed to making mistakes. Take Virtue/Moir and Savchenko/Szolkowy for example. i believe they both recieved 10s (if no 9.75 or something) and the fact that they skated a clean and perfect program helped them to garner such a score.

Well, since 10 is a "perfect" score, you're never going to see it for performances that are obviously flawed. But you're almost never going to see that score anyway.

Most of the times we're talking about 8s vs. 7s or something like that. And those scores are built up by all the things that the skater does well throughout the whole program. Not everybody starts at the same level, and the reason for that is how well they meet all the bullet points. Skaters who do a lot of those things well enough to earn high scores sometimes tend to do most of them well most of the time, with some fluctuation depending on how "on" they are during each performance. And skaters who do most of those things well tend to place well, especially when they also hit all their elements. So those are the skaters who consistently get high scores. They also tend to be the skaters who have positive reputations, because they tend to skate well and place well. But the source of the high scores is the all the things that they still do especially well even when they make a few mistakes, more than reputation from past performances.

I do think it's possible that judges are significantly influenced by the first few criteria of the Skating Skills component and that a skater who does especially well in those areas may get higher scores across the board than a skater who is weaker in those areas but just as strong in some of the other components. But again, that halo effect comes not so much from past performance/reputation as from the fact that the whole performance looks more impressive up close when it's skated with that kind of effortless power.

Most mistakes take less than a second, or just a couple of seconds, and then are forgotten as the skater continues with the program. In those cases the effect on the PCS would be very negligible -- maybe judges would give 0.25 or 0.5 less on some components than they would have given for the exact same performance without the mistakes.

Visible mistakes might have a negative effect on Performance/Execution in that while they were occurring the clarity of movement would have been interrupted. Or some judges might interpret the "Execution" part of that component as including the execution of the elements.

Mistakes on steps or in-between skating might have a negative effect on Skating Skating skills.

Sometimes a bad performance will be much worse than what the skater is capable of in a good performance. E.g., if the skater gives up and stops presenting the performance to the audience, drops the arms and lets posture sag, starts skating slower and more cautiously, stops relating to the music, leaves out choreography, gets sloppy or lethargic on moves that are successfully completed (e.g., weaker jump landings or spin positions, slower spins), etc., etc.

If a skater lets a number of those weaknesses creep in, then you might expect lower PCS than when s/he's skating well, even without significant mistakes.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

That doesn't make sense though because if there's a protocol for PCS why did Joannie's PCS become 5 points higher in 2 weeks during a bad freeskate?

There's a caveat here which is: a judge does not have to decide on all the bullets within the 5 explanatory components. So if there is a question of favoritism, a judge can explain the bullets that satisfies the score.

 

[gkelly]

That doesn't make sense though because if there's a protocol for PCS why did Joannie's PCS become 5 points higher in 2 weeks during a bad freeskate?

I'm not sure which two events you're referring to, but I can think of several possible explanations.

1) Although Rochette made more obvious mistakes on elements during the freeskate that you're calling "bad," she actually was more secure on her blades, more in tune with the music, etc., in the opinions of the judges, for the majority of that program than in the lower scored program.

2) The judges on the panel at the higher-scored event were using a slightly higher PCS scale on average across the board for all the skaters.

3) The random selection at the two events worked out so that the judges who scored Rochette lowest at the "bad" event were not counted, whereas at the "good" event it was the ones who scored her highest who were eliminated.

Or any combination of the above.

 

[silverlake22]

I'm not sure which two events you're referring to, but I can think of several possible explanations.

1) Although Rochette made more obvious mistakes on elements during the freeskate that you're calling "bad," she actually was more secure on her blades, more in tune with the music, etc., in the opinions of the judges, for the majority of that program than in the lower scored program.

2) The judges on the panel at the higher-scored event were using a slightly higher PCS scale on average across the board for all the skaters.

3) The random selection at the two events worked out so that the judges who scored Rochette lowest at the "bad" event were not counted, whereas at the "good" event it was the ones who scored her highest who were eliminated.

Or any combination of the above.

Thanks for the explanation. This all makes sense, but just goes to show that scores will not be consistent from one event to another. I guess it's not that big a deal though because all the competitors at the event will (ideally) be scored on the same scale.

 

[trinity90]

As seen from Nationals, Sasha's PCS scores really held her up and catapulted her into 2nd place for her sp and an overall 5th place overall. While it was obvious that Sasha would receive high PCS, i didnt expect it to be so significant......However, Stephane Lambiel's PCS at Europeans was rightfully granted since he is arguably, the most artistic skater skating now alongside Abbott and Takahashi.

 

[so_proud]

There have been a lot of complaints about Yu-Na and Plushenko being over-scored.

I don't think Yuna is over-scored.

When considering Yuna's superior technical ability and beautiful artistry, her PCS has not been awarded enough, just 2-3 points higher or similar to or sometimes even lower than (probably not any more) the other skaters. Someone summarized the average TES scores of the past seasons of some skaters as below.

<<<SP TES Average>>>

Yuna Mao Joannie

33.23 31.28 30.76 (07-08 season)

38.93 32.82 33.52 (08-09 season)

40.53 28.00 31.19 (09-10 season)


<<< LP TES Average>>

Yuna Mao Joannie

68.88 66.57 62.15 (07-08)

62.34 59.83 60.28 (08-09)

60.14 47.57 47.50 (09-10)