what is the correct arm positioning for forward corssovers?

[jiyooi]

hello! I've got a bit of a silly question, I just started taking skating classes about a month ago and I recently got to the stage of learning how to do a (forward) crossover. while learning how to do a crossover, my coach pointed out that I have incorrect arm positioning.

what I thought was the correct arm position:
- chest opened towards the centre of the circle
- arms up by my side, sort of like the tangent to the practice circle I skate around to practice crossovers


what he said was the correct arm position:
- leading arm is stretched diagonally in front of me and slightly towards my other shoulder
- lagging arm is almost parallel to the radius of the circle (basically the hand on the lagging arm is pointing towards the centre of the circle)

I see many skaters in my rink who join international competitions and their coaches follow the arm positioning which I assume is correct (the ones professional skaters on TV use) however my coach insists that his way of doing it is correct. since I am still learning the fundamental parts of the forward crossover (forward stroking, crossing outside leg over inside leg and lifting inside foot and putting it in front and repeating the stroking again) being put together and not the full cohesive stroking, I do wonder if the arm position he taught me is some kind of fundamental building block of the positioning other people use? although it does hinder my direction as I always end up going in a somewhat straight line instead of a curve but that could be attributed to my inexperience on the ice.

 

[Diana Delafield]

hello! I've got a bit of a silly question, I just started taking skating classes about a month ago and I recently got to the stage of learning how to do a (forward) crossover. while learning how to do a crossover, my coach pointed out that I have incorrect arm positioning.

what I thought was the correct arm position:
- chest opened towards the centre of the circle
- arms up by my side, sort of like the tangent to the practice circle I skate around to practice crossovers


what he said was the correct arm position:
- leading arm is stretched diagonally in front of me and slightly towards my other shoulder
- lagging arm is almost parallel to the radius of the circle (basically the hand on the lagging arm is pointing towards the centre of the circle)

I see many skaters in my rink who join international competitions and their coaches follow the arm positioning which I assume is correct (the ones professional skaters on TV use) however my coach insists that his way of doing it is correct. since I am still learning the fundamental parts of the forward crossover (forward stroking, crossing outside leg over inside leg and lifting inside foot and putting it in front and repeating the stroking again) being put together and not the full cohesive stroking, I do wonder if the arm position he taught me is some kind of fundamental building block of the positioning other people use? although it does hinder my direction as I always end up going in a somewhat straight line instead of a curve but that could be attributed to my inexperience on the ice.

Read your question just before leaving for the rink. Since I learned many many decades ago the arm position you want to use, I experimented during warm-up stroking with your coach's version. That trailing arm pointing to the centre of the circle had sounded weird, and it felt weird. My partner asked me if I was feeling off-balance, because he thought I was reaching for him on my left as we skated side by side but without holding onto each other. Maybe your coach is just trying to slow you down by making your crosscut curve more shallow? You need one of the coaches here to make suggestions, and maybe there's a new style developed since I learned, but all I can say is that I've positioned my arms your way for a very long time and no one ever told me it was wrong.

Having said that about the arms, there was a trend some time ago for learning two different ways to cross the feet in forward crosscuts. One was your way, to pick up the outer foot and actually cross it above the inner foot, then swing the now trailing foot around the heel of the skating foot and put it back on the ice. The other, which I seem to recall was named "Russian stroking" was to keep the outer blade on the ice at all times and use the inner blade in a sculling-behind to the outside of the circle motion and then bring it back for another pull, sort of like a cross-country ski pole. I admit I preferred that for a while after seeing a friend trip herself doing a crossover with her crossing foot pointing slightly too much downward and catching her picks in the hem of her warm-up pants (in the days of bell-bottom pants, which gives you an idea of how old I am ). She landed on her face and endured extensive dental repair work as a result. Shook up her friends almost as much as it did her and put a lot of us off the cross-the-foot-over style for some time. However, my pairs partner insisted I match his style so I had to stop doing the "Russian" (if it actually was their method) style.

 

[sk8dreamzzzz]

Is it possible that your coach was trying to explain the shoulder position more than arm position?

I learned 2 different upper body positions for crossovers from different coaches. My current coach actually had us use 2nd arabesque position instead of 1st because we all had our shoulders hunched over in the 1st arabesque position. To correct that, we had to spend a couple months doing crossovers in 2nd arabesque until our upper body was consistently straight.

You can look up ballet positions for 1st and 2nd arabesque to see the arms. It technically works either way. Your coach probably had a reason for changing it and is trying to correct something. You can ask why and please let us know how it works out.

 

[jiyooi]

That trailing arm pointing to the centre of the circle had sounded weird, and it felt weird

it definately does feel weird...
and uncomfortable too, especially since I sustained a couple of shoulder injuries on both of my shoulders not long ago so I haven't fully recovered all motions in my shoulder. i've always assumed the discomfort was from my injuries and not from the arm placement

Maybe your coach is just trying to slow you down by making your crosscut curve more shallow?

I'm not quite sure, if I may know in what case would making my crosscut more shallow be advantageous? is it to get used to the mechanics of a crossover? I know my coach isn't really fond of breaking elements into smaller pieces when teaching either...
but I remembered that he complained that I did not get enough speed either....
he also mentioned frequently that I did not have a curved enough path of travel and i begin to wonder how I am supposed to achieve a curved path with the technique he taught me

"Russian stroking" was to keep the outer blade on the ice at all times and use the inner blade in a sculling-behind to the outside of the circle motion and then bring it back for another pull, sort of like a cross-country ski pole.

I'm not quite sure I understand the motions involved but it does sound intriuging. I assume it changes the overall look of the crossover aside from the difference in stroking? like I've seen some skaters in myrink have much different crossovers in terms of general appearances but when their movements arebroken down its all the same movements just the different style they bring into it

She landed on her face and endured extensive dental repair work as a result.

I hope your friend is doing better now! physical injuries may be easier to recover from but the mental aspect of it may be more difficult

 

[jiyooi]

Is it possible that your coach was trying to explain the shoulder position more than arm position?

wouldn't the shoulder position and arm position be correlated? if he is trying to teach me the shoulder postioning wouldn't it be the 'hug the circle' one rather than the one he taught?

2nd arabesque position instead of 1st because we all had our shoulders hunched over in the 1st arabesque position

I've tried searching the arabesque positions and it seemed to me that the only difference is where the chest and therefore the arms are facing but I may be interpreting it wrong...
did your direction of travel remain unaffected by the arm positions?

You can ask why and please let us know how it works out

I did ask a couple of times and he says the difference between what I do and what he taught was that I was wrong and that 'no one does it like that'. upon pressing him for a more detailed answer, he told me that no one executes crossovers with their arms up like a bird...

 

[gliese]

I'm not going to say anything about the arm position because you've already gotten so much valuable feedback.

However, any coach that says that their way is the only correct way, will not explain why, and mocks other ways of teaching things is a red flag.

 

[WednesdayMarch]

I did ask a couple of times and he says the difference between what I do and what he taught was that I was wrong and that 'no one does it like that'. upon pressing him for a more detailed answer, he told me that no one executes crossovers with their arms up like a bird...

Well, that was helpful... I think I'd be looking for a different coach.

I teach crossovers with the "hug the circle" technique. The height of the arms is a matter of personal preference. My dancers tend to have their arms at a higher level than beginners and those dedicated to freestyle, but I have no problem with any of them provided their body position is right.

 

[Diana Delafield]

it definately does feel weird...
and uncomfortable too, especially since I sustained a couple of shoulder injuries on both of my shoulders not long ago so I haven't fully recovered all motions in my shoulder. i've always assumed the discomfort was from my injuries and not from the arm placement



I'm not quite sure, if I may know in what case would making my crosscut more shallow be advantageous? is it to get used to the mechanics of a crossover? I know my coach isn't really fond of breaking elements into smaller pieces when teaching either...
but I remembered that he complained that I did not get enough speed either....
he also mentioned frequently that I did not have a curved enough path of travel and i begin to wonder how I am supposed to achieve a curved path with the technique he taught me



I'm not quite sure I understand the motions involved but it does sound intriuging. I assume it changes the overall look of the crossover aside from the difference in stroking? like I've seen some skaters in myrink have much different crossovers in terms of general appearances but when their movements arebroken down its all the same movements just the different style they bring into it



I hope your friend is doing better now! physical injuries may be easier to recover from but the mental aspect of it may be more difficult

wouldn't the shoulder position and arm position be correlated? if he is trying to teach me the shoulder postioning wouldn't it be the 'hug the circle' one rather than the one he taught?

It's quite possible to have the arms up but the shoulders hunched over at the same time. Try pulling your shoulder blades together and think of rolling your shoulder joints back rather than letting them fall inward to the front. Your arms can still hug the circle.

I've tried searching the arabesque positions and it seemed to me that the only difference is where the chest and therefore the arms are facing but I may be interpreting it wrong...
did your direction of travel remain unaffected by the arm positions?

In ballet as in skating, the spine should be straight with the shoulder joints rolled back, not slumping forward. The arm positions involve more than the arms and chest. The various parts each have a place where they should be and then they can work together (not sure if that came out any too clear -- so difficult to explain body positions just in words!)

I did ask a couple of times and he says the difference between what I do and what he taught was that I was wrong and that 'no one does it like that'. upon pressing him for a more detailed answer, he told me that no one executes crossovers with their arms up like a bird...

It's possible that means you're holding your arms too high when they should be at shoulder height or lower. But I agree that I don't think much of your coach's ego and attitude! If there's any opportunity for you to find another teacher, I would urge you to do so before you get set in any habits that then need to be corrected.

 

[Diana Delafield]

As for my friend who tripped herself doing crosscuts in bell-bottom pants, that was in the early 1970s when they were the height of fashion for teenagers and young adults. I hope she recovered, but it was in a different country about 50 years ago. I've been on the ice for a long, long time !

 

[mskater93]

wouldn't the shoulder position and arm position be correlated? if he is trying to teach me the shoulder postioning wouldn't it be the 'hug the circle' one rather than the one he taught?


I've tried searching the arabesque positions and it seemed to me that the only difference is where the chest and therefore the arms are facing but I may be interpreting it wrong...
did your direction of travel remain unaffected by the arm positions?


I did ask a couple of times and he says the difference between what I do and what he taught was that I was wrong and that 'no one does it like that'. upon pressing him for a more detailed answer, he told me that no one executes crossovers with their arms up like a bird...

Is it possible that he's trying to say that your shoulders are too high? It's entirely possible to have your arms correct but a shoulder rolled closed as well, so arms and shoulders don't completely correlate.

 

[tstop4me]

I did ask a couple of times and he says the difference between what I do and what he taught was that I was wrong and that 'no one does it like that'. upon pressing him for a more detailed answer, he told me that no one executes crossovers with their arms up like a bird...

Your coach's response is obviously not satisfactory. Other coaches, however, do teach the same arm positions that your coach prefers. See, e.g., this video by Coach Mary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgwVCAiRrDk.

My coach also teaches approximately the same arm positions as your coach and as shown in the video. But she has an explanation for why. Assume you are doing forward cross-overs in the CCW direction. Here the left arm is pointing radially inward toward the center of the circle, and the right arm is pointing forward with the hand in front of your chest. This position helps keeps your right hip raised up and your body leaning into the circle. I also find that the left arm pointing radially inward works literally as the arm of a compass drawing out the circle. Works for me. My coach, however, would never insist there is only one right way to execute a move. She often shows me several alternatives (especially if I'm struggling with one method), and we find out what works best for me. And sometimes she mixes it up just for variety.

 

[emilinkaa]

Well, that was helpful... I think I'd be looking for a different coach.

I teach crossovers with the "hug the circle" technique. The height of the arms is a matter of personal preference. My dancers tend to have their arms at a higher level than beginners and those dedicated to freestyle, but I have no problem with any of them provided their body position is right.

I like the term hug the circle!

 

[sebami]

The correct arm positioning for forward crossovers involves keeping your arms slightly bent at the elbows and in front of your body. This helps with balance stability and initiating turns.

 

[gliese]

The correct arm positioning for forward crossovers involves keeping your arms slightly bent at the elbows and in front of your body. This helps with balance stability and initiating turns.

See when I see a skater do this I assume they're inexperienced.

 

[tstop4me]

The correct arm positioning for forward crossovers involves keeping your arms slightly bent at the elbows and in front of your body. This helps with balance stability and initiating turns.

<<Emphasis added>> Both arms in front of the body?

 

[jiyooi]

so update!

I have found a new coach who has a slot (my rink has a coach shortage at the moment) and I've taken a total of two 30 minute classes on seperate days with him. he has approved my crossover saying that I was doing it correctly in both directions and now we've moved onto backward crossovers and he has cleared me for everything up to alpha level in the ISI handbook (currently in Beta). when I asked about the arm positioning my previous coach taught, my new coach said that he has yet to hear of it as he came from an older generation of skaters (I'm in a tropical country so skating is a rare sport in itself now much more back then) and did not have the luxury of seeing different methods of teaching but he said to do whichever was most comfortable for me.

truthfully I did want to switch coaches for a while now but I thought that I was perhaps just not used to having a coach and the lack of an availble coach made it much easier to just stay with my previous coach. my previous coach's inability to answer the question I asked him is one among other smaller issues I've experienced under his coaching that has made me lose motivation. initially, what drew me to him was that he has attentive to my posture and would point out if I'm slouching and such.

good news is that my new coach is extremely open to questions and encourages me to ask as many questions as I'd like. he is also kinder towards the mistakes I make by teaching me some 'excercises' that I can practice to build up the fundemental steps to excecuting the element I'm learning to help me (eg. powerpulls and stepovers for crossovers )

thank you everyone for the responses!!! I truly appreciate them