Will the President Unite the Country?

[gezando]

Most European countries allow abortion,

Thanks for the information. Actually I am curious about how people around the world feel about when does life begin.

In USA R vs W is the law of the land, so we have to follow the law as citizens, as do citizens of those European countries. But what do people think about when life begins?

 

[Rgirl]

Since part of this discussion has mentioned the role of the media in dividing the country, here's a link folks might find interesting -- News or Noise: Political Debate Shows Draw Fire

Like I said before, if enough pundits do nothing but try to outscream each other and refuse to listen to anyone else, it doesn't take long for that kind of political manner to infiltrate the culture. Can anyone imagine Walter Cronkite and Harry Reasoner yelling at each other a la "Crossfire"?
Rgirl

 

[Grgranny]

Too bad, you have to register, and I get too much spam, etc. already.

 

[gezando]

On topic, I don't think Bush can unite the country. if Bush (won the popular vote overall this time) can't do it, I sure don't believe Kerry can do it.

That's just it. If that is your belief

My scientific conclusion after studying human embyrology.

No possible argument can be brought to bear against that position.

Suppose you are trying to argue against that, what will you offer???

Others don't think so, and you will never be able to convince them no matter what evidence you bring forward.

I never felt the need to change others thoughts.

Gezando, I am curious. Are you against a "morning after" pill?

Some morning after pills are FDA approved,it is law of land.We live in a democracy, so doctors are free to prescribe or not, and pharmacies are free to stock the pills or not. DES (diethylstylbestrol) is the ingredient in some morning after pill. From 1938 - 71 DES was used to prevent complicated pregnancy ( a totally different indication different dosage and time of exposure), and caused clear cell carcinoma in some baby girls. If you do a google on DES, some of the first things that come up are ads from malpractice lawyers.

But I too am curious, since you read a lot, (even the book of Job) and have tons of intellectual curiousity . What is your conclusion when life begins??

 

[Ptichka]

But I too am curious, since you read a lot, (even the book of Job) and have tons of intellectual curiousity . What is your conclusion when life begins??

Personally (I know the question wasn't directed at me, but still), I do not know. I look at cultures throughout the world, and I see no consensus. In some African cultures, a baby is not even considered a human being until he/she is a couple of weeks old. Meanwhile, a baby is given mother's milk, but if it starts to die, no one will do anything to help. In others, meanwhile, if a husband thinks one of his wives has had an abortion, he is allowed to kill one of her father's sons in retribution.

Of course it's all different when you actually feel it. When I was pregnant (I've had a miscarriage) I certainly felt that what was inside of me was a human life. I talked to it as if it were already my child. At the same time, while a miscarriage was a very difficult experience to go through, it was not the same as loosing a child. Now, I think of that fetus as a soul that thought about coming into this world as a full human being, but decided against it.

All of which, though, says nothing about the issue of whether or not abortions should be legal.

 

[Longhornliz]

somehow this thread turned into an abortion discussion... and i just want to make sure that everyone stays friends with everyone since that tends to be a sticky subject.

 

[gezando]

somehow this thread turned into an abortion discussion... and i just want to make sure that everyone stays friends with everyone since that tends to be a sticky subject.

Thanks for the thoughts. I don't really want this to be an abortion discussion. IMO, if the law allows it, it is the law. Law abiding citizens respect the law, regardless of how they feel about it, e.g. the law stated 65 mph, even if we think it should be 70 mph, we respect, or at least should respect 65 . The issue of when does life begins I think is an interesting one. I want to see what different people around the world think. I think it is a question we all have thought about , struggled with, since we were kids.

Off topic Human Embyrology is one of the most intersting subject I took. I concluded life begins at conception, and concluded genetically, the fetus is not identical to the mother's.

 

[Mathman]

Ptichka, on the soul that changed it’s mind.

Hi, Gezando. The Book of Job!

Satan, whence comest thou?
"From going to and fro in the earth and walking up and down in it."

Man that is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. He comes forth like a flower and is cut down. He flees like a shadow and continues not.

Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, saying,
Who is this that darkens our counsel by words without knowledge?
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Have you mapped out its dimensions and stretched a measuring cord across it?
Were you there when I laid the foundations of the universe and set its cornerstone,
on that mighty day when the morning stars sang together, and all the angels of heaven shouted for joy?

Does that pretty much sum up the hopes and fears of the human condition, or what!

I guess what I think about when life begins is this. I do not believe that questions of this type have a definitive answer based on scientific investigation alone. I think that any attempt we make to analyze the evidence dispassionately will be trumped by our gut feelings, by our cultural values, and by our belief system.

The reason I think this is because when we say, “What is life,” we are talking not about facts but about the definition of a word. The facts are well-known and not in dispute. Everybody knows about the birds and the bees. But we define words more or less by consensus and convenience of usage.

Some scientists feel that viruses, for instance, have enough going for them that they qualify as being “alive.” Others prefer to regard them more as a chemical recipe for rearranging organic material, rather than as a living being. Again, there is no dispute about the facts. We all agree on what a virus is, what it does, etc. The disagreement is not about viruses, it is about what we choose the word “life” to mean.

Some people do not believe that a fetus should be regarded as an independent living being until it reaches the stage of development where it can survive on its own. This is not a scientific question about fetal development, it is a belief about what the words “living being” ought to mean.

Anyway, that’s what I think. About abortion, I further believe that the consequence of not being able to turn this question over to the scientists, thus washing our hands of it, is this: the only people who are willing to voice an opinion are those who somehow or other think they have seen the light, on one side or the other. All of us poor benighted people in the middle are mostly silent because we don’t know what to say.

JMO

Mathman

 

[gezando]

I guess what I think about when life begins is this. I do not believe that questions of this type have a definitive answer based on scientific investigation alone. I think that any attempt we make to analyze the evidence dispassionately will be trumped by our gut feelings, by our cultural values, and by our belief system.

Some people do not believe that a fetus should be regarded as an independent living being until it reaches the stage of development where it can survive on its own. This is not a scientific question about fetal development, it is a belief about what the words “living being” ought to mean.

Some scientists feel that viruses, for instance, have enough going for them that they qualify as being “alive.” Others prefer to regard them more as a chemical recipe for rearranging organic material, rather than as a living being. Again, there is no dispute about the facts. We all agree on what a virus is, what it does, etc. The disagreement is not about viruses, it is about what we choose the word “life” to mean.

Anyway, that’s what I think. About abortion, I further believe that the consequence of not being able to turn this question over to the scientists, thus washing our hands of it, is this: the only people who are willing to voice an opinion are those who somehow or other think they have seen the light, on one side or the other. All of us poor benighted people in the middle are mostly silent because we don’t know what to say.

Mathman

On words, and consensus. "That depends on the definition of is is" Clinton. About virus, JMO I believe scientists are not that divided. Perhaps you are thinking about prions instead?

I haven't seen any blinding light. I don't believe the willingness to state an opinion has to depend on seeing a light. We state opinions all the time everyday (sometimes we qualify that with I state this opinion only with reasonable degree of scientific certainty, i.e. about 66% sure) When you state your opinion whether some poor soul PhdD candidate should pass or not, that has huge consequence. What is the consequence of stating an opinion about when does life begin?

I think that any attempt we make to analyze the evidence dispassionately will be trumped by our gut feelings, by our cultural values, and by our belief system.

Since you think an opinion can not be drawn from scienctific evidence, then your gut feeling, cultural values, and belief system more likely than not had already guided you to an opinion, and I speculate your opinion does not exactly fall on the mid point of 50%. I don't believe you are benighted and in the middle Whether you are willing to state this opinion, is another issue.

Anyway this is way off topic, I guess we should return to Bush's tax cut plan.

 

[heyang]

I believe the definition of life is personal. Therefore, abortion is a personal decision that should not be governed for all.

Personally, I don't think I'd ever choose to have an abortion, but I do believe that everyone has the right to make that decision for themselves.

I do believe that parents should be notified when minors seek abortions. Sometime the teen does not know how to approach their parents and may want to keep child, but don't know how. Social services could serve as a neutral party.

I'm not sure how I feel about paternal notification. The baby is the product of both parents, but the father is not the one whose life will be altered during the pregnancy. If the father is going to have a 'say' in the abortion, then the father better be prepared to provide emotional & financial support during the pregnancy and consider being the sole custodian upon birth if the mother did not want the baby. If it's the result of rape, then the father has no say.

 

[Ogre Mage]

Life

I am pro-choice, pro-stem cell research and pro-death penalty.

I do not know when life begins and frankly I do not believe the so called "right to life" trumps all else. I believe the right of a person to make her own personal decision is the more important right. I believe the right of science to pursue cures for debilitating diseases and injuries is the more important right. I believe that the right to execute Ted Bundy or Timothy McVeigh is the more important right.

 

[Ptichka]

I do believe that parents should be notified when minors seek abortions.

I think few people would disagree with this; this does not make abortion an exception -- parents have to concent to all medical procedures. However, I think Kerry said it very well in the 2nd debate. He explained that he voted against parental notification bill because it did not give the courts the opportunity to waive the rule in special circumstances. Too often the girls seeking abortion come from abusive environments and cannot talk to their parents. In those special circumstances determined by a qualified judge yes, I think minors should be able to have an abortion without parental notification.

 

[dorispulaski]

Making Abortion Rare

I believe that when life begins, and whether an abortion is justified in any given case, is so contentious, and so impossible to create a guideline that most people will find satisfying, that it has to be left to the conscience of the people and doctors involved.

I prefer to take the tack that abortion should be safe, legal and rare. Making abortion illegal does not make it rare. If you check the statistics, you find that Europe, where abortion is legal, has a much lower abortion rate than South America, where abortion is very illegal.

Also, if you look at U.S. statistics for abortions, the percent of pregnancies ending in abortions were largest under Reagan, next largest under George W. Bush, and least frequent under Clinton. There were 17% less in fact under Clinton than Bush. There appears to be a strong link between the percent of people living in poverty and the abortion rate.

Another issue that can't be ignored is the increasing tendency to provide no birth control education to teenagers. This can really be seen in the statistics for Texas.

If you look at abortion rates for the separate states, in 2000, VT had the least and Mississippi (AFAIR) had the most. But VT still had a higher rate than any European country except Iceland.

The US could do a lot to make abortion rarer, but we are going about it the wrong way.

 

[Mathman]

Since you think an opinion can not be drawn from scientific evidence, then your gut feeling, cultural values, and belief system more likely than not had already guided you to an opinion, and I speculate your opinion does not exactly fall on the mid point of 50%. I don't believe you are benighted and in the middle Whether you are willing to state this opinion, is another issue.

Gezando , besides being a fine scientist, you are a perceptive judge of human foibles. This is an issue where my head and my heart pull me in opposite directions.

MM