James and Ciprès announce end of career

[TallyT]

You can look at it two different ways. If she knew something was amiss and had an opportunity to speak up, yes of course she should have said something. If she learned of the gravity of the situation around the same time as everyone else, I don't see why any statement from her would be necessary. She has a responsibility for stopping child abuse if she can. She is not responsible for apologizing for other people's behavior after the fact.

That's the big big 'if'. Sounds to me like the coaches certainly knew, but of course everyone (including them) are going to deny all knowledge.

Fans will each make up their own minds. You look at it one way, but other people have a right to see it otherwise.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

That's the big big 'if'. Sounds to me like the coaches certainly knew, but of course everyone (including them) are going to deny all knowledge.

Fans will each make up their own minds. You look at it one way, but other people have a right to see it otherwise.

There is a big difference. The coaches have been implicated. AFAIK, Vanessa has not, not by the victim, her parents, or anyone else. Sexual predators are manipulative people and I think it's very possible Vanessa either knew nothing or the situation was framed (by her partner and the coaches) as something different than it was. Vilifying everyone in Morgan's orbit because you assume all those people knew what was going on is wrong.

 

[TallyT]

There is a big difference. The coaches have been implicated. AFAIK, Vanessa has not, not by the victim, her parents, or anyone else. Sexual predators are manipulative people and I think it's very possible Vanessa either knew nothing or the situation was framed (by her partner and the coaches) as something different than it was. Vilifying everyone in Morgan's orbit because you assume all those people knew what was going on is wrong.

It's possible - as I said, I don't know. No one does, or ever will. My own experiences have made me more cynical than you might be, but that doesn't make either the truth.

My problem was not with what you claim - that, had someone not known until afterwards, they wouldn't bear any responsibility. Sure, it would be both brave and kind to speak in support of the child, the real victim, but as I said, I have serious doubts that I could be that brave so why should someone else? My beef was with the sweeping statement that there is no responsibility, with the obvious implication that that means at any time before or after.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

That is absolute craven crap, sorry. And it's the excuses made by everyone who suspects abuse is going on but doesn't want to take on the odium of helping an innocent victim, so looks the other way. Quite simply, this is exactly the sort of attitude that has allowed abuse, sexual, domestic and right up to murderous, go on since time immemorial.

I'm not saying James did know enough to speak out; she may have been blind to what he is, she may have closed her eyes to it, she may (like the actual victims so often do) have found it takes a level of courage we don't actually comprehend till we're faced with it to throw away her own career and risk the backlash. And to be honest, I wouldn't personally attack her if so because I am honest enough to doubt I would have that courage myself. But that wouldn't make it not my responsibility if I suspected enough. And it wouldn't make it not hers if she did. Or yours, or anyone else's. It would just mean that responsibility was shirked.

And I am sick to death of stuff like Cipres' action being brushed off as 'mistakes' (you see the same weasel words for people who have committed crimes both big and small). It was a deliberate action, it was conceited, cruel and misogynistic, he has as good as admitted it's true and with the help of the French federation he's going to
get away with it.

You're entitled to your opinions. As I said earlier, at worst the motivations were misogynistic, careless, harmful, selfish and egregious. And there's no excuse for any of the adults allowing the sequence of events to take place. As I said earlier, the reported comment by the rink manager is the same old reprehensible and harmful blaming of the victim! In this case a 13-year-old, which is inexcusable and unforgiveable. That is why awareness programs and guidelines at every rink should be instituted. SafeSport is not the answer nor the panacea for protecting minors or anyone else subject to abuse and harassment. And still, the sketchy reporting was done in an overly titillating manner that was helpful to no one, in my opinion. The incident that occurred was preventable but once it happened, it should have been responsibly handled. No one steps up to do the right thing in the world we are living in today.

As I mentioned earlier too, U.S. figure skating had an opportunity in the 1990s to get ahead of the specter of sexual abuse that started being reported in figure skating. But instead, the fed chose to dig their heads in the sand and ignore the claims against a top coach. That careless negligence and looking the other way allowed that coach to continue abusing other young victims for years. Had U.S. figure skating stepped up to the plate back then, a lot of abuses which happened over the years might have been prevented, including this reprehensible incident.

Those who wish to look down on J/C and everything good they've accomplished in their career have that right. J/C certainly faced enough petty and unwarranted criticism well before Morgan's lewd and harmful behavior surfaced.

Another thing that should happen is for us to examine cultural attitudes within the sport, which gave rise to the environment in which this incident occurred, as well as the sad incidences in which John Coughlin got away with his much more harmful behavior for years. Morgan won some silly poll on a fan site around 2016 for being a sexy hunk, but of course that's no reason for him to flaunt lewd exhibitionist behavior toward a 13-year-old. Still, the poll is a reflection of casual attitudes toward skaters who may often be too immature to handle adulation of that nature.

I don't set myself up as being perfect and on a high horse with OTT and scorched-earth condemnation that allows no room for rehabilitation. Of course, there needs to be real understanding first by all of the adults involved at the Florida rink, in regard to the serious nature of their negligence. And there's no indication that has happened yet. But no one in positions of power at U.S. figure skating appear eager to step up and say anything responsible that could lead to preventing further abuses. Or at the least, to make some effort to begin protecting and respecting young girls in this sport, rather than turning the other way and hoping SafeSport will fix everything. I'm afraid that the sport as a whole right now has incidentally promoted a kind of 'Lolita' attitude toward its young female athletes. There's no question that misogyny exists in the larger culture as well as in figure skating culture.

Attitude change and re-education needs to happen across the board. However, I disagree that irate haranguing in the absence of all the facts will help to solve anything.

 

[TallyT]

You're entitled to your opinions. As I said earlier, at worst the motivations were misogynistic, careless, harmful, selfish and egregious. And there's no excuse for any of the adults allowing the sequence of events to take place.

Then why are you trying to do so for the main adult in question? Yes, the whole US and French culture is riven through with it, as is immature male posing (god knows, cruel young males everywhere make girls' lives miserable and get away with it because "boys will be boys") but being conceited and immature is not an excuse for deliberately hurting another, more vulnerable person. That's on him, and neither he nor you get to feel superior because you want him forgiven and back on the ice, and people like me will always feel queasy when we look at videos/pictures of him.

Let me ask you a question. Had Cipres walked up to a child at the rink and punched them in the face, would you be looking at others to share the blame for his actions? And yet - and yes, I am speaking from my and other women's experience - what he did probably hurt her just as much.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

And what happened came back to haunt Morgan and the other adults who were involved, as well as the uninvolved athletes who were training at that rink, and were adversely impacted in subsequent competitions after the sketchy reporting was published. So, the initial 'brushing off' turned into a bigger reckoning. IMO, the young victim possibly could have been more traumatized by having to leave the rink, by her parents' reactions, and by the alleged blaming and intimidation, which showed no concern for her mental well-being. Once again, I'm basing my speculative comments on the sketchy published reports and hearsay, since no confirmed details have been documented.

It was craven, lewd and selfish behavior done in a cultural environment in which that type of attitude toward a 13-year-old female was freely allowed to happen, with complete disregard for her welfare because of 'excuses.' But once again, we are not in possession of the details, motivations and sequence of events that took place. I begin to wonder if Jeremy Barrett leaving the rink because of a disagreement with John Zimmerman, might have had something to do with this incident. But again, this is all speculation which could be termed irresponsible to bandy about as well, in the absence of full investigation, confirmation, restitution and rehabilitation.

Just as with the more horrific sexual abuse that occurs in nuclear, dysfunctional families, this is a complex, emotional set of circumstances. And everyone is entitled to their opinions. I preface once again that I don't know enough to accuse Vanessa of any wrongdoing. And I still say that she's not responsible for making a public statement about anything. That's completely her decision. She does not have to sacrifice her career to right the ills of figure skating culture, or the irresponsibility of her partner either. We are not in possession of the exact details, nor of what Vanessa knows, nor of what she may have said or did when she found out or was told at some point. Or whether she found out more when the published report surfaced.

There appears to be education and awareness that needs to happen, because I believe some people viewed the incident as a prank and when the 'sh*t hit the fan,' there was apparently an insensitive view that no physical harm was done. In the absence of evidence that Morgan routinely engaged in this type of behavior against minors, what he did was most certainly a 'mistake,' a serious and harmful mistake.

 

[Kelly Lynn]

I will truly miss this pair with their own distinctive style. They were thrilling to watch. I hope other young and old men take note that their actions may very well have big consequences.

 

[TallyT]

And what happened came back to haunt Morgan and the other adults who were involved, as well as the uninvolved athletes who were training at that rink, and were adversely impacted in subsequent competitions after the sketchy reporting was published. So, the initial 'brushing off' turned into a bigger reckoning. IMO, the young victim possibly could have been more traumatized by having to leave the rink, by her parents' reactions, and by the alleged blaming and intimidation, which showed no concern for her mental well-being. Once again, I'm basing my speculative comments on the sketchy published reports and hearsay, since no confirmed details have been documented.

So what are you trying to say, it would be better for all concerned had it not come out? I don't believe you can be. And unless you have been in similar shoes, I'd be a bit cautious about that 'more traumatised' bit, you've no right to assume that.

As far as James is concerned, again I don't really blame her either way. But if she wants a public post-skating career in North America... I suspect you will never see her on the ice with him again, because it will be the first thing everybody thinks and talks of. Don't blame her for that either.

I will truly miss this pair with their own distinctive style. They were thrilling to watch. I hope other young and old men take note that their actions may very well have big consequences.

This - after the bit about it 'haunting' Cipres - really depresses me. Nothing about "I hope other young and old men will at least try to understand why it was wrong", just "I hope they realise they could get caught".

And then we wonder why the attitudes that cause such damage don't change.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Let me ask you a question. Had Cipres walked up to a child at the rink and punched them in the face, would you be looking at others to share the blame for his actions? And yet - and yes, I am speaking from my and other women's experience - what he did probably hurt her just as much.

If they witnessed it or found out about it later and didn't report then yes, I'd blame them for not taking action. What Morgan did is on him, but the response to it is on the people involved.

The coaches especially had a duty of care, I'm not sure what the law is in the US, but here in Australia if you know or suspect the abuse of a child in your care you're legally required to report it. I'm not sure if failure to do so necessarily results in jail time, but it would certainly result in been unable to pass a "Working with Children" check.

Basically, everyone had a responsibility to protect kids, this used to not happen and people got away with abuse for years and years. I have no idea if Morgan is a serial offender or can be rehabilitated or what, but the point is to stop abuse or ideally prevent it all together. We can't be half-hearted about that.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Let me ask you a question. Had Cipres walked up to a child at the rink and punched them in the face, would you be looking at others to share the blame for his actions? And yet - and yes, I am speaking from my and other women's experience - what he did probably hurt her just as much.

You seem to be speaking with personal experience. I don't know whether your experience occurred in childhood or adulthood or in teenage years. It is definitely difficult to want to believe ill of someone whom you can't believe would purposely wish to cause harm to a 13-year-old. That's why I can't say that Morgan intended cruelty and vicious harm. It seems like gross immaturity and lax morals, with a need to realize that a 13-year-old child deserves to be protected by adults, not abused by adults. Some fans had initially indicated that sharing these types of pictures with consenting adults is commonplace. Personally, I was not familiar with this type of behavior. And I do not think it's appropriate for anyone to engage in. It's lewd and inappropriate no matter if it's happening between consensual adults. The other thing to realize is that if adults are treating this behavior casually, they must realize that there's always a danger of teenagers and children being exposed to it.

I had something that happened to me when I was 7 that was inappropriate by an older relative. Fortunately, we were not alone in the house, and it was fondling behavior that to this day I don't know the extent of how damaging it was to me emotionally and psychologically. But I do believe it was extremely harmful in ways I was not conscious of for years. At such a young age, I had no perspective and no words. And I was innocent and trusting. All I knew was that something had just happened that was confusing. I possibly blocked out some things that had happened, but the part that remained in my conscious mind allowed me to speak to my mother with gestures mostly because I had no words except to wonder why the person had done this and just to tell my mother what had happened. Again, all I can remember is that the relative was suddenly no longer living with us, and I never saw him again until many years later. But he never lived with us again.

My parents may not have understood or wanted to believe exactly what happened, but they knew something had happened and that's all they needed to know. When I told her, my mother's eyes widened and she asked me to repeat what I told her. She informed my father and they both confronted the relative. I don't recall the details exactly. I just know I was fortunate to not associate his disappearance or the loud voices with anything I had revealed nor with what he had done necessarily. So in that way, I don't remember feeling guilty, in the way that Maya Angelou felt when something more horrific happened to her as a child. She was raped by a relative. She told what happened, and someone killed the rapist, after which Maya stopped talking for a long time because she thought her voice had killed the perpetrator. You can read about this in her memoir, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings.

In my 40s, when I recalled the incident that had happened when I was 7, it suddenly dawned on me, 'Oh I experienced an instance of child sexual abuse.' But the bigger more comforting realization was that, 'My parents loved and protected me!' My thoughts about the relative are mixed, because he was an uncle we looked up to and he'd always been kind to us. I realized from the vantage point of adulthood and more knowledge of his life that he was a weak, self-indulgent, grossly irresponsible, selfish individual, which doesn't excuse his behavior. I just feel lucky that nothing worse happened to me to destroy my innocence and my childhood. My mother listened to me and both of my parents protected me and my other siblings from further danger from someone whom they had trusted and had been generous in offering temporary shelter.

All that to say that a lot of abuse happens in families. That's just one story. Maya's is another. Whitney Houston's is another. Sally Field's is another horrific, traumatic experience from the age of 3 years old (abuse by a stepfather, with no help from her mother).

To answer your question, that's a perspective from you that opens my eyes a bit. And that's why I say education and ongoing awareness training is necessary for everyone. But not enough people are stepping up in figure skating or even in the larger culture to do anything substantive, especially not these days with the vile misogynist and racist who resides in the White House. I don't understand enough to know whether Morgan and the other adult did this purposely together with malice aforethought, or whether the other adult is responsible for using the girls to ask Morgan to do it. No matter how it happened, there's no excuse. The other adult was involved and he does share blame. There's no question that Morgan's high profile makes the story more newsworthy, salacious and clickbait which is another sad commentary about our culture. If it had just been the unknown former ice dancer involved, there would have been no headline stories in USA Today.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

So what are you trying to say, it would be better for all concerned had it not come out? I don't believe you can be. And unless you have been in similar shoes, I'd be a bit cautious about that 'more traumatised' bit, you've no right to assume that.

As far as James is concerned, again I don't really blame her either way. But if she wants a public post-skating career in North America... I suspect you will never see her on the ice with him again, because it will be the first thing everybody thinks and talks of. Don't blame her for that either.



This - after the bit about it 'haunting' Cipres - really depresses me. Nothing about "I hope other young and old men will at least try to understand why it was wrong", just "I hope they realise they could get caught".

And then we wonder why the attitudes that cause such damage don't change.

Your view of what happened is apparently in part based upon your personal experiences. Unless you were there or unless you've spoken directly to the victim and to other people involved, you are making assumptions about exactly what happened. Just as everyone is who is speaking out without being in possession of all the facts.

The only good thing about the incident being reported is to raise awareness, and to ensure the perpetrators are held accountable. But I disagree with the way the incident was reported, because I feel it was not so much about helping the victim as much as it was about latching onto a sensational story that involved a high profile athlete in the sport. The report raised more questions than it answered. And the questions have still not been answered.

Ingrained and harmful attitudes in our culture are so complex and egregious on so many levels, it is mind-boggling. Good that you are doing your part to foster more awareness on this particular issue. It is indeed depressing to contemplate the utter depravity of mankind. We have to hold onto something positive. I want to hold onto the hope that the culture of misogyny can change, but there are no hopeful signs. I am not perfect. I am culpable in many ways because I grew up in this culture. To the extent that I can become more aware of knee-jerk attitudes and beliefs that are harmful, I am willing and openminded enough to adjust my thinking. Still, I disagree with joining a lynch mob.

Plus, I reiterate that the sport of figure skating harbors a 'Lolita' complex toward young female athletes. I don't see any evidence that those attitudes are changing in figure skating, nor in the larger culture. Except perhaps incrementally in some of the awareness campaigns advocating for treating young girls and women fairly and equally in athletics and in every field. There are so many injustices in this world that need to be righted. But when there are people advocating for women and girls, and for systemic change such as Meghan Markle, while at the same time she is being routinely defamed, slammed and mischaracterized by the British media, and by the POTUS, we are in a lot of trouble in the world right now.

 

[TallyT]

Your view of what happened is apparently in part based upon your personal experiences. Unless you were there or unless you've spoken directly to the victim and to other people involved, you are making assumptions about exactly what happened. Just as everyone is who is speaking out without being in possession of all the facts.

The only good thing about the incident being reported is to raise awareness, and to ensure the perpetrators are held

So in effect you are saying it would be better for all concerned had it not come out. I stand corrected and bow to your higher moral viewpoint.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Then why are you trying to do so for the main adult in question? Yes, the whole US and French culture is riven through with it, as is immature male posing (god knows, cruel young males everywhere make girls' lives miserable and get away with it because "boys will be boys") but being conceited and immature is not an excuse for deliberately hurting another, more vulnerable person. That's on him, and neither he nor you get to feel superior because you want him forgiven and back on the ice, and people like me will always feel queasy when we look at videos/pictures of him.

Your opinion based on your experience. All of this exists, so thanks for articulating it. In my personal experience at the age of 7, I was lucky that my parents listened to me and were alarmed and acted immediately. Regarding this specific Morgan-related incident, and certain aspects of French culture which I am aware harbors questionable attitudes and practices surrounding sexual misbehavior, I can only say that my eyes need to be opened further. And I would like to be in possession of more confirmed facts. Meanwhile, hopefully some people are being educated by virtue of this discussion. The point is that our larger culture and the figure skating culture allowed the environment to exist in which this behavior took place. And it has not been fully investigated in part because of some of the lack of awareness and misogyny that exists. A perfect example is the attitude of blaming the 13-year-old exhibited by the reported comments of the rink manager.

Instead of mocking the 13-year-old or looking at her askance and casually, why didn't the rink manager telephone her parents and caution the adults? Why didn't U.S. figure skating institute programs and guidelines when they had the opportunity in the 1990s? I've mentioned all of this, but you are intent on focusing on where you disagree with me because you want me to join your lynch mob.

No one should 'get to feel superior' about anything involving this sad state of affairs, including either you or me, or Morgan, or the rest of the sorry, irresponsible adults, including the child's parents.

You can feel sick to your stomach when you look at Morgan, because of your personal experiences and knowledge of the experiences of others whom you apparently try to help. I am probably still in denial, and I'm aware enough to admit that. I want to allow for the possibility of remorse and rehabilitation. If it turns out that Morgan is completely craven and irredeemable, okay then my thoughts about him will change. Meantime, all I know is that he's always struck me as immature. And now I know that he's a lewd exhibitionist as well, with careless, irresponsible attitudes toward young girls. I do not yet know that he intended cruelty. That's why I think he is in need of awareness training, which should have taken place already. As far as J/C's performances, I will still watch with sadness for the personal loss I feel. You cannot expect everyone to have your level of awareness or to feel the same way you do about this situation. If I had direct first-hand experience of Morgan physically hurting me or someone I know, of course my feelings would be different.

It's unclear to me exactly what happened and what the motivations were. If you know what happened, then you know more than I do. Why did the other adult ask the girl to send the text to Morgan? Were Morgan and the other adult acting in concert? Who else, if anyone, knew what was going on at that rink on that day and other days?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

So in effect you are saying it would be better for all concerned had it not come out. I stand corrected and bow to your higher moral viewpoint.

Ah well, @TallyT 'Here for the High Lord of Extra,' I see you are only intent upon exercising your 'superiority' over my 'inferior' lack of 'moral' high ground.

As I said, you know more than I do, and your opinion is apparently the only one that matters. You are only intent upon focusing not on the complexities of everything I have expressed, but upon pounding home your points of view, because of the harm you have experienced and that you have seen others experience.

I don't have all the answers, and as I said earlier, nothing of this serious nature will ever be solved by railing away or trying to get everyone to agree with you on online discussion forums.

 

[TontoK]

I still get the impression that some are coming from a position that Vanessa had to have known. My story of the child porn guy I worked with was shared previously. One thing you can take away from that is those kind of people don't share the details of their filth with regular people. They're no different from most criminals. They keep their mouths shut until they're discovered.

Based on what has been reported... and it's a big step for me to give any media reporting full credence... the coaches are the ones who knew, at least after the fact, and they had an absolute duty to report it. Instead they actively tried to squash the story. That is far, far more aggregious than Vanessa declining to make a public statement in the aftermath.

 

[Skater Boy]

1. Why in the world such a dramatic title. Shouldn't it be James and Cipres Retire. End of Career is highly inflamatory.
2. Not my favourite couple/pairs but I don't wish them ill
3. Whether Vanessa knew or not this is sad.
4. It is my recollection while James and Cipres were leaning towards trying for Beijing it was known they might have retired regardless of the "scandal" Though it appeared they were leaning obviously to going to Beijing with visions of olympic medals as a pairs team and in the team event.
5. 2 years/seasons before the olympics is when skaters usually make a decision to go for the olympics or not. Generally unless scandal or injury you don't drop out the year before the olympics you just go for it being so close. But not that you can't retire at any time
6. It seems clear that Morgan sent the photos of his penis. Whether it is a violation of Safesport of criminally we do not know what the finding is - this is separate from morality
7. The intent of Morgan may not have been to be sexual with this young girl; I/we have no idea what he was thinking We certainly cannot condone if this was a stupid boys will be boys or lockerroom pranks that he just did not think throug or if it was for more overt sexual reasons. THe end result is that a young person will have been affected.
8. Glad Vanessa has works with Battle. Funny I can imagine Morgan being a real estate agent.
9. Not to be mean and not sure if this exists anymore but I think Liz Manley wrote about an ex competitor who wasn't so nice to her skating in Nudes on Ice or something like that. If Morgan is so comfortable with his body that might be an option.
10. One moment of stupidity, lack of judgment and look at th elives affected - may be more far reaching this could cost France dearly especially in the team event at the olympics.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

No one should 'get to feel superior' about anything involving this sad state of affairs, including either you or me, or Morgan, or the rest of the sorry, irresponsible adults, including the child's parents.

Why blame the girl's parents? I'm confused. Also, I don't think most people condemn abuse in order to feel superior about themselves, but rather to signal to others that such actions are wrong.

Your main points seem to be that 1. Morgan appears not to have a track record of abuse (and the reports of this incident were 'sketchy' and 'titillating') therefore the acrimony towards him is disproportionate and he should get a second chance and 2. Morgan and Vanessa were a wonderful pairs team so excessive vilification of Morgan puts a stain on the James/Cipres pair's career.

Regarding 1., it makes sense that repeat offenders should be punished more than one-off offenders, but the appropriateness of a punishment for a given offence is subjective, which is why sentences can be appealed. Most of the posters here who strongly condemn sexual misconduct are Australian (coincidence?), while societal attitudes (and legal precedents) in places like the Southern US might be more conservative. Although I think that sending lewd photos to a minor isn't on the same level as molestation, I'm ok with his career being ruined (as long as molesters like Richard Callaghan get a much worse punishment) because this is consistent with what happens to public figures who commit similar offences in one country I've lived in. However, you might have a different view if your country/society doesn't mete out the same punishments for this type of offence. I agree that sensationalism often thrives inappropriately on tragedy, but if, say, a celebrity beats their spouse, is the public backlash disproportionate just because a tabloid splashes lurid headlines about it? With regards to a second chance - he might have gotten it eventually if a pairs skater's career wasn't so short and he wasn't nearly 30 years old. It's like how Kostner came back after serving her doping-related ban (though the nature of her offence isn't comparable to Morgan's) but was past her peak and close to retiring by then.

Regarding 2., I think other posters have already mentioned that you can love a person's body of work at the same time as recognising their personal transgressions. I will acknowledge in the same breath that Balanchine was a misogynistic despot who promoted anorexia and anatomically detrimental technique, and that Jewels is one of my favourite neoclassical ballets. Or a more recent example - Liam Scarlett who created the lovely Symphonic Dances for the Royal Ballet but then got fired a year or two later for sexual misconduct.

By the way, this thread is getting a bit overshadowed by Morgan... Vanessa is a veteran of the sport and her identity isn't defined just by her partnership with Morgan. Can we just take a moment to appreciate her long career, from 2006 (!) British ladies' single champion, to being the first black Olympian pairs skaters with Yannick Bonheur in Vancouver, and yes, experiencing a second wind with Morgan Cipres? Looking forward to seeing her on Battle of the Blades (though rooting for Botterill/Radford since their charity funds my PhD)

 

[Flying Feijoa]

9. Not to be mean and not sure if this exists anymore but I think Liz Manley wrote about an ex competitor who wasn't so nice to her skating in Nudes on Ice or something like that. If Morgan is so comfortable with his body that might be an option.

Or a Ten Courts of Hell-style punishment, invite dirty-minded grandmas to watch him skate in the nuddy (sorry, needed a bit of levity)

 

[karne]

^^ I don't know. But it would make me happy if Vanessa & Morgan are able to continue performing in shows together. They have so much to offer in their performance abilities!

It would clearly make a lot of people very unhappy if Cipres was invited to a show, to the point of being financial irresponsibility and PR suicide.

Morgan should be given the opportunity to rehabilitate himself, which I think comes with facing up to his mistakes.

Sending a dick pic to a minor is not a mistake. And men who think it's appropriate to send dick pics can rarely be persuaded otherwise.

I understand that some people are upset about the terrible mistake Morgan made.

It wasn't a mistake.

The issue for me is that we do not know everything that was going on surrounding what happened. There was another adult coach at the rink (a former little known ice dancer) who was also involved. But since reportedly it was Morgan who actually sent the lewd photo on his phone, and because he has high name recognition, he's the one who is receiving the prime focus of blame, without all of the details of what led to the incident being fore-fronted.

Because he actually sent the photo. A good person would tell the other coach where to shove it and report the other coach.

It doesn't matter what the underlying circumstances were, it was a very immature and harmful choice that Morgan made.

Immature? He's 29. That's old enough to know not to send dick pics, especially not to minors.

I believe that Morgan is very immature and careless in what he did, but he's not a horrible person who should be ostracized for the rest of his life. Morgan's immaturity and carelessness could be in part due to growing up inside rink environments which is a very sheltered existence.

Oh, don't give me that utter garbage. Rink environments can be sheltered but not to the point of finding dick pics sent to a minor acceptable.

He is also from a different country and culture.

That much is true. France has shown they will protect paedophiles before.

As well, we need to examine the culture of figure skating as a whole, wherein young heterosexual men are prized commodities whose egos are routinely massaged and whose needs and desires tend to be prioritized. That very situation is also a huge factor in John Coughlin's upbringing within the sport. What happened in Coughlin's case happened over time and included a number of victims. He was a teenager when his behavior began, and his behavior was condoned for years, even if most people were not fully aware of the extent of his harmful actions toward younger females.

"It's not precious Morgan's fault! It's all figure skating's fault!"

In the specific incident involving Morgan, we do not know all the details nor specific motivations.

Uh, the only missing motivation is that of the grooming coach. We know all the other details.

Unless either of them have some pattern of past similar transgressions, I do not think pressing charges and serving jail time should be the necessary penalty.

Ah yes, it's only worth jail time if multiple MINOR CHILDREN are abused and traumatised. Got it.

It is also very important to ensure the emotional health and healing of the young victim(s). In this case, I'm not sure the belated public nature of the allegations is actually helpful for the young victim(s).

I'm sure hushing it up forever would be really helpful to the victims.

The U.S. federation bears some responsibility, IMO, although they apparently are sidestepping any notion of bearing responsibility for the prevalence of abusive incidents at rinks.

It's all USFS fault that a French skater decided to sexually abuse a MINOR CHILD!

Exactly. It's easy for after-the-fact sideline observers to throw flames in the very 'politically correct' judgmental environment of today. But the fact remains, none of us have all of the details of what occurred, nor complete knowledge of all the factors and personalities at that rink which led to the unfortunate and harmful incident.

Yes, we do have a lot of details. And what "factors" exactly justify sexual abuse of a minor?

The sketchy nature of the overly titillating public reports by Brennan in the first place certainly does not require Vanessa (who was not named as a participant in the incident) to speak out in any way, shape or form.

The articles weren't "sketchy" and they were actually very well researched, written and reported.

Anyone who continues to look down on Vanessa, in my view, are being unfair (ETA: I edited my previous reference that suggested detractors of Vanessa should 'be ashamed.' I realize that I shouldn't condemn anyone who has feelings and opinions that don't align with mine). Vanessa is not responsible in any way for speaking out on behalf of the victims in this case. That is not her responsibility. Neither is she responsible for defending or condemning Morgan's transgressions, simply because of their professional partnership and their private connection.

Whether she knew then, she knows now and has chosen not to condemn it. I will always look down on her for that. How hard is it to say "I do not condone the sexual abuse of minors?"

Possibly, Morgan's immaturity and his impulsive personality were factors in Vanessa putting a halt on the dating. I've always had the feeling that Morgan was still carrying a torch for Vanessa, despite their romantic split.

We're getting into Olympic-level reaching territory here.

To sum up: Details of the abuse incident at the Florida rink have only been sketchily reported without full investigation, nor any legal documentation or confirmation.

Actually the details have been thoroughly reported with a solid investigation from Brennan and a re-opened police complaint.

It has clearly been frustrating and difficult for them both to persevere in the face of not only normal tough obstacles, but also the extremely complicated and subtle obstacles of trying to succeed in a sport that does not readily welcome or always fairly judge skaters of color.

So...he's excused from sexually abusing a minor because his skating partner is a woman of colour?

I have never been more shocked in my life than when he was arrested for trafficking in child porn. I mean I was SHOCKED. And, if anyone had told me about suspicions of his activity before his arrest, I would have been really upset that anyone woud spread rumors of this seemingly nice and mild man of something so vile, and I would probably have given a sermon on the evils of gossip.

But afterwards, you denounced him, correct? Declared that his behaviour was not acceptable? After you knew?

Plus, we do not know the details of what happened, or of what led to the incident taking place, nor the individual motivations.

Yes, we do.

But, as far as I'm concerned, the sketchy, titillating reports by Christine Brennan mainly served to raise more questions, and the reports sadly harmed innocent skaters who were training at the rink.

There was nothing sketchy or titillating about Brennan's articles. She remains the only skating journalist to be dedicated to stamping out abuse in the sport.

At least three skaters who had achieved great success during the 2019 GPs, faltered badly in their competitive outings in January subsequent to the first published report appearing right after the GPF in December. It's understandable that their focus on training and preparation was disrupted, despite none of them resorting to blaming the 'elephant in the room.'

Oh, please. Poor widdle Aymoz clearly bombed his SP at Euros because of the article. Sure.

To me, the actual motivations and sequence of events are unknown.

That could only be the case if you refused to read the article.

As well, the incident happened nearly three years ago.

So it should never be dealt with?

I suppose details began to surface within the skating community, and then apparently a counselor on behalf of the main teenager thought it appropriate to report the incident. I'm not certain that the public report was necessary to help the young victim in her healing process.

But it was necessary to alert the skating world that Cipres was a predator.

IMO, everything should have been handled swiftly and privately as soon as it happened, with the perpetrators being held accountable and made to undergo questioning and sexual harassment training and rehabilitation.

And how do you propose this should have happened when the girl was literally being threatened by the coaches not to tell anyone?

I do not think Morgan's career should have been halted unless he had engaged in actual physical harm or unless he was previously involved in a pattern of misbehavior toward minors, which I do not believe is the case.

Ah, so it's completely excusable to you that he only abused one girl.

It's possible that the other adult was using the young girls in order to see the photo himself. Morgan may have been unaware of other adult's involvement.

Cipres knew the girl was thirteen. He coached her. HE KNEW.

It's also possible that Morgan paid little attention to who had requested the photo, or the youngster did not use her own phone to make the request (as enticed by the other adult).

It was on instagram. From his account to her account. He knew who was asking and how old she was.

There's also the possibility that the other adult and Morgan were in cahoots to tease the two young girls in order to incite a reaction,

Stop. Hold up. Are you seriously calling an adult man sending a dick pic to a minor child "teasing"?

Anyone who felt their behavior was flirtatious, should have immediately contacted the parents, pulled the male adults aside to caution them, and to ensure guidelines regarding interaction between adults and minors was closely monitored. It's just lax morals and careless behavior all around.

"Watch out for those two young harlots! They are being flirtatious with adult men!"

NO. Even if the girls were flirty (which teen girls can be) the onus is on the adults to ignore it or reject it. They should not have to be "cautioned".

I have sympathy for them, but when it happened, they should maybe have taken a step back and sought crisis management advice.

You have sympathy for grown adults who bullied and harassed a minor child into not revealing her abuse?

I totally understand the inclination to protect the burgeoning career of James/Cipres after so much hard work and years of sacrifice had gone into building their career and they were on the cusp of moving up after having broken through in a big way at Euros 2017. To try and look down on the desire to preserve the career momentum of J/C in my view is overly harsh, self-righteous, and insensitive.

Ohhhhh, so thinking adults bullying and harassing a minor child into not revealing her abuse is totally acceptable when the abuser is famous. Gotcha.

Seemingly, the parents ultimately agreed to not press charges or publicize the incident in the immediate aftermath.

Probably because their chief concern was their traumatised daughter who was so afraid she refused to speak. Which was Zimmerman's doing.

I also wonder whether any frustration or depression, particularly on the part of Morgan had set in after they did not receive a deserved win at the French GP in Novermber 2017. From his behavior in the kiss 'n cry, Morgan has always seemed to take scoring slights and disappointments visibly harder than Vanessa.

Really?! Not winning a competition is justification for sexual abuse now?!

about something that is mostly gossip and sketchy reporting in a titillating fashion.

You keep saying this, but it does not make it true.

I'm just not certain whether it was the victim's choice to make a public accusation, or whether it was advice provided to her as an aid to her recovery if she has been struggling emotionally in the years since. It could be other factors involved in her struggle, e.g., upset over being forced to leave the rink; guilt and/ or embarrassment and confusion; difficulty in her relationship with her parents, both before and after the incident, etc.

Oh, so now it shouldn't be believed because other people might have helped her become comfortable with the idea of reporting.

I do think it is possible to remember how wonderful they were on the ice without condoning any completely unacceptable behavior occurring off-ice.

Ahhh, the old "can we separate the art from the artist" question. I don't think we can.

My feelings are very clear on the issue, except as I said, we do not know the exact details of what happened from the sketchy and incomplete reporting.

Oh, yes, your feelings are very clear.

Obviously, something harmful and careless happened, and there's a lot of responsibility to be shared by a number of adults for what happened. Bottom line, it was a careless, damaging, and immature choice taken by Morgan, no matter what the circumstances were that led up to his actions.

HE KNEW SHE WAS THIRTEEN. That's not careless.

Agreed, and in no way is Vanessa at fault. I'm just really tired of people, as usual, somehow trying to pin blame on the woman, especially one who has lost the rest of her skating career for despicable actions she had no control over.

Oh please. Strangely enough, you can think Cipres is a pile of garbage and think James should have said something. The two are not mutually exclusive.

As I said earlier, at worst the motivations were misogynistic, careless, harmful, selfish and egregious.

You keep saying the word careless. I do not think it means what you think it means.

That is why awareness programs and guidelines at every rink should be instituted.

"Hi guys, today we're doing an education program: don't sexually abuse anyone!"

And still, the sketchy reporting was done in an overly titillating manner that was helpful to no one, in my opinion.

Continuing to say this still does not make it true.

The incident that occurred was preventable but once it happened, it should have been responsibly handled. No one steps up to do the right thing in the world we are living in today.

Except it couldn't be responsibly handled because the girl was too frightened of Zimmermann's bullying to report it.

Had U.S. figure skating stepped up to the plate back then, a lot of abuses which happened over the years might have been prevented, including this reprehensible incident.

So US Figure Skating is responsible for the behaviour of a French skater? Interesting take.

Those who wish to look down on J/C and everything good they've accomplished in their career have that right. J/C certainly faced enough petty and unwarranted criticism well before Morgan's lewd and harmful behavior surfaced.

Criticism of Cipres is hardly "petty and unwarranted" and yet here you are implying it is so.

Still, the poll is a reflection of casual attitudes toward skaters who may often be too immature to handle adulation of that nature.

Cipres is not a baby. Infantilising him like this is really gross.

Of course, there needs to be real understanding first by all of the adults involved at the Florida rink, in regard to the serious nature of their negligence.

One which can't be achieved when people are out here decrying his behaviour as "careless" and "immature".

And what happened came back to haunt Morgan and the other adults who were involved, as well as the uninvolved athletes who were training at that rink, and were adversely impacted in subsequent competitions after the sketchy reporting was published.

Big meanie Brennan's article made poor widdle Aymoz bomb his SP at Euros! Boo hoo hoo!

Once again, I'm basing my speculative comments on the sketchy published reports and hearsay, since no confirmed details have been documented.

You keep saying this, but it does not make it true!

It was craven, lewd and selfish behavior done in a cultural environment in which that type of attitude toward a 13-year-old female was freely allowed to happen, with complete disregard for her welfare because of 'excuses.'

"Oh, it's not precious Morgan's fault, how could he possibly know that sending a dick pic to a thirteen year old girl was wrong?"

But once again, we are not in possession of the details, motivations and sequence of events that took place.

Yes, we are in possession of quite a lot of details, in fact.

She does not have to sacrifice her career to right the ills of figure skating culture, or the irresponsibility of her partner either.

Denouncing sexual abuse as wrong would hardly have constituted sacrificing her career.

In the absence of evidence that Morgan routinely engaged in this type of behavior against minors, what he did was most certainly a 'mistake,' a serious and harmful mistake.

He knew she was thirteen. This was not a mistake.

You seem to be speaking with personal experience. I don't know whether your experience occurred in childhood or adulthood or in teenage years.

And now dismissing contrary views as "tainted". Classic.

It is definitely difficult to want to believe ill of someone whom you can't believe would purposely wish to cause harm to a 13-year-old. That's why I can't say that Morgan intended cruelty and vicious harm. It seems like gross immaturity and lax morals,

And now it comes out. You can't let go of your fandom and instead want to blame "lax morals" (WTH!?) for Cipres' choice to knowingly send a dick pic to a minor child.

The other thing to realize is that if adults are treating this behavior casually, they must realize that there's always a danger of teenagers and children being exposed to it.

"They're going to be exposed to it anyway, so what's the big deal?"

I had something that happened to me when I was 7 that was inappropriate by an older relative. Fortunately, we were not alone in the house, and it was fondling behavior that to this day I don't know the extent of how damaging it was to me emotionally and psychologically. But I do believe it was extremely harmful in ways I was not conscious of for years.

Good god, this makes everything you've said so far ten times more abhorrent.

I realized from the vantage point of adulthood and more knowledge of his life that he was a weak, self-indulgent, grossly irresponsible, selfish individual, which doesn't excuse his behavior.

No, he was an evil abuser, and the fact that you genuinely can't see that and continue making downplaying remarks like "weak" and "self-indulgent" even now is incredibly troubling.

I don't understand enough to know whether Morgan and the other adult did this purposely together with malice aforethought, or whether the other adult is responsible for using the girls to ask Morgan to do it.

It doesn't matter. He knew she was thirteen.

There's no question that Morgan's high profile makes the story more newsworthy, salacious and clickbait which is another sad commentary about our culture. If it had just been the unknown former ice dancer involved, there would have been no headline stories in USA Today.

So Brennan shouldn't report incidents when they involve high profile skaters. Okay.

Meanwhile, hopefully some people are being educated by virtue of this discussion.

Oh, I'm being educated all right.

Instead of mocking the 13-year-old or looking at her askance and casually, why didn't the rink manager telephone her parents and caution the adults?

Again: why is the blame put on the girls for "acting flirty", instead of the adults who should have ignored it? The onus is on the adults to reject such behaviours.

No one should 'get to feel superior' about anything involving this sad state of affairs, including either you or me, or Morgan, or the rest of the sorry, irresponsible adults, including the child's parents.

Oh, so now her parents are irresponsible, presumably for failing to make sure their teenage daughter wasn't acting flirty.

I am probably still in denial, and I'm aware enough to admit that.

Oh yeah, you're so far in denial you're in Egypt.

I want to allow for the possibility of remorse and rehabilitation.

He has shown none, bar a token apology to try and stop the girl and her family taking it further.

And now I know that he's a lewd exhibitionist as well, with careless, irresponsible attitudes toward young girls.

It is not "careless" to send a dick pic to a girl he knew was thirteen. It is not "irresponsible", either.

That's why I think he is in need of awareness training, which should have taken place already.

"Hey Morgan, you know it's not okay to send dick pics to minors right?"

It's unclear to me exactly what happened and what the motivations were. If you know what happened, then you know more than I do. Why did the other adult ask the girl to send the text to Morgan? Were Morgan and the other adult acting in concert? Who else, if anyone, knew what was going on at that rink on that day and other days?

Why did Morgan Cipres knowingly and willingly send a photo of his dick to a girl he knew was only thirteen years old, even if she asked?

7. The intent of Morgan may not have been to be sexual with this young girl; I/we have no idea what he was thinking We certainly cannot condone if this was a stupid boys will be boys or lockerroom pranks that he just did not think throug or if it was for more overt sexual reasons.

Oh yeah, obviously a photo of his dick couldn't possibly have any sexual meaning. Come on.

 

[nussnacker]

Why even try to absolve Morgan? I get what the user BlissfulSynergy is trying to say, something Ashley mentioned too: figure skating has an unhealthy atmosphere, where adults and kids spend too much time together, which is detrimental for both.
But there can be absolutely 0 excuse for Morgan (and whoever abused Ashley and all others who allow this). It's not like they're some poor mindless creatures led purely by their instincts, and "oh, he sent a dickpic because he was in FS for too long". Come on now. He did it, and he knew it was wrong, and he still went for it. It wasn't an accident, it was something they had premeditated. With Morgan, this is a pretty black and white situation.
I do think all people deserve a second chance, but there should be serious repercussions for his actions, which as of now it looks like he's not intending to accept, as he tried to run from justice for a few years now. Had he admitted his wrongdoings, accepted his punishments and tried to make something right - it would've been a different conversation.