2020-21 Japanese Men, Pairs And Ice Dance

[KiraraChin]

@readernick you are spot on about Kazuki. He obviously had an 'off' day but overall he's on a good path.

As for Shun, I think he should re-think his strategy - going for insane BV isn't working. Maybe downgrading the BV a bit and working on other areas would be more productive for him.

 

[surimi]

Yes, it's now up to all the inconsistent boys to try to get one of the Big 3 off the podium. The footing of Kagiyama is fast approaching that of Shoma and Yuzuru, though I privately think he's got a long long way to go yet in terms of the charisma and performance skills that the other two have. Out of the chasers, I think Shun is close due to his tech content, and Kazuki due to his performance skills. Keiji can be a factor too if he gets well and hits his jumps (he usually does very well in Japan). Then comes Sota who will be challenging Shun/Kazuki/Keiji and try to get into the top 6 at Nats, and Miura could be a dark horse. I don't know the current shape of Koshiro.

 

[readernick]

I think, Shun should do a coach change, perhaps to Raf. He could help him to stabilize his nerves. In my opinion, Shun is a very talented skater, but he is often under immense pressure.

I respectfully disagree. Raf is a good technical coach, but I don't think Shun's main issue is the technique. His quads are frankly amazing. He lacks confidence and consistency. I don't think going to a coach who can't speak his language will help him with the mental toughness and confidence he needs. I do hope he isn't as hard on himself in the future . He always looks do stressed. I want to mother him.

 

[KiraraChin]

I think what Shun needs is to stop going crazy with BV. Maybe this is a hot take but I do think he can develop his musicality and performance skills, I think he improved a lot already. It's very obvious now that he won't get automatic PCS like Yuma, so he'll have to work on it, but he can do it!

 

[FayD]

Shun is too talented to get total scores under 200. I wish he would attempt layout similar to Yuma's, skate clean with 4T and 4S and focus on getting his levels, because he loses lots of stupid points there. I'm sure he's capable of executing his planned content, but at the moment it harms his scores more than it helps them.
About Yuma, while I roll my eyes at JSF most of the time, I wouldn't reduce him to fed pet - he's definitely one of the most promising young men we have at the moment and I'm very excited to see him develop. It's been a while since the men's field had a skater make a splash in his senior debut and truly challenge the veterans, so I hope Yuma (as well as Shun and some of the Russian boys) will be the ones to do so in this quad

 

[milkgirl]

Ich bin respektvoll anderer Meinung. Raf ist ein guter technischer Trainer, aber ich glaube nicht, dass Shuns Hauptproblem die Technik ist. Seine Quads sind ehrlich gesagt erstaunlich. Ihm fehlt es an Selbstvertrauen und Beständigkeit. Ich denke nicht, dass ein Besuch bei einem Trainer, der seine Sprache nicht sprechen kann, ihm mit der mentalen Härte und dem Selbstvertrauen hilft, die er braucht. Ich hoffe, dass er in Zukunft nicht so hart mit sich selbst umgeht. Er sieht immer gestresst aus. Ich möchte ihn bemuttern.

 

[Skatesocs]

Du hast nichts geschreiben, Fraulein Milch. (I hope that's not as butchered as I think it is)

 

[milkgirl]

Sorry, my fault. Shun has to stabilize that `s true. But it is necessary to have a Japanese coach to get more self-confidence? I think we have Shoma as an example who got more confident with Swiss coach ( I don´t think in Japanese). I like Shun wish him progress. And Idontwant a talent get lost as I `ve seen some of them already

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Yes, it's now up to all the inconsistent boys to try to get one of the Big 3 off the podium. The footing of Kagiyama is fast approaching that of Shoma and Yuzuru, though I privately think he's got a long long way to go yet in terms of the charisma and performance skills that the other two have. Out of the chasers, I think Shun is close due to his tech content, and Kazuki due to his performance skills. Keiji can be a factor too if he gets well and hits his jumps (he usually does very well in Japan). Then comes Sota who will be challenging Shun/Kazuki/Keiji and try to get into the top 6 at Nats, and Miura could be a dark horse. I don't know the current shape of Koshiro.

Yuma's GOE is higher, especially counting superior spins and steps.
Yuma's SP tech score was 58 (If I remember correctly). This is higher than Shoma Uno's Olympic tech score.

Shun is great, but Yuma.... Yuma is special. Yuma has everything, and he improves with everything every season.

 

[Skatesocs]

Yuma's SP tech score was 58 (If I remember correctly). This is higher than Shoma Uno's Olympic tech score.

Different systems. Not sure if equivalent. Please justify if so.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Different systems. Not sure if equivalent. Please justify if so.

Not equivalent, but if shomas GOE was properly judged it would be very close (currently overmarked GOE, especially on his "flip"

 

[KiraraChin]

Shun is great, but Yuma.... Yuma is special. Yuma has everything, and he improves with everything every season.

Yeah, no. Yuma is a great technician but still lacking a lot when it comes to performance. He's been rewarded in PCS because of the way the current judging system works and political favour, that's all.

The only Japanese man who is truly complete and 'has everything' is Yuzuru, all the others are lacking something one way or another.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Yeah, no. Yuma is a great technician but still lacking a lot when it comes to performance. He's been rewarded in PCS because of the way the current judging system works and political favour, that's all.

The only Japanese man who is truly complete and 'has everything' is Yuzuru, all the others are lacking something one way or another.

I personally enjoyed his programs a lot (His last season one's, haven't watched this season.
His SS and speed across the ice is devine, and either he needs to work on outward performance or he can skate to classical music and get an amazing choreographer.

 

[KiraraChin]

SS and speed are not everything, though. Performance is (or should be) an integral part of figure skating, the ability to express and project feelings, to captivate the audience, to tell stories.

Some skaters are natural performers, like Shoma and Kazuki. Others aren't born with it naturally but they can become good performers with time. I think both Yuma and Shun belong to this second group. They are obviously amazing technically but their performance skills are still not properly developed. That's why I don't think they 'have everything'. But that's not a bad thing, that only means they still have room to grow.

 

[surimi]

Exactly what Kirara said. I am left completely cold and bored by watching Kagiyama, so the 'everything' is a matter of opinion. As I said, I miss emoting, natural musicality, charisma, star power. You see it there, I do not. Time will tell if he becomes a beloved superstar like Hanyu and Uno. But at this point I certainly prefer almost all of the other boys of the Japanese top 10.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Exactly what Kirara said. I am left completely cold and bored by watching Kagiyama, so the 'everything' is a matter of opinion. As I said, I miss emoting, natural musicality, charisma, star power. You see it there, I do not. Time will tell if he becomes a beloved superstar like Hanyu and Uno. But at this point I certainly prefer almost all of the other boys of the Japanese top 10.

I used to get bored watching hanyu. At least until his 2013/14 SP.
Hanyu has SS and speed, but at least with his classical programs he doesn't have the outwards performance - and he doesn't need it. His body movement and skating choreography tell the story.
Sure hanyu has natural musicality , but he doesn't use charisma in the vast majority of his programs (he utilised it in his 2014 and let's go crazy Sp). and you don't need with classical music.

Give Yuma 2 Jeffery Buttle programs that have been choreographed to perfection, and then you'll see what I mean. I don't see what you mean by Yuma lacking musicality. His 2019 4CCsp was amazing. Every nuance was hit with good kneebend and TR. His FP left me bored, but the SP made me see all his potential if he had two amazingly choreographed classical programs.

The person who really bored me at the JGPF was shun. I watched the opening quads but he could not retain my attention. Rushed spins, rushed StSq and worse SS.

 

[KiraraChin]

Sure hanyu has natural musicality , but he doesn't use charisma in the vast majority of his programs

Yikes, what a bad take. I'll stop it here, I guess your perception of what constitutes a 'good performance' is very, very different from mine.

 

[FayD]

Fun, crowd-pleasing programs aren't the only way to use your charisma though, at least for me. A charismatic performer can engage the audience with a classical program too and I'd say Yuzu is one of the best in this. All you have to look at is the crowd reaction when he goes into his Chopin or Otonal step sequences.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Fun, crowd-pleasing programs aren't the only way to use your charisma though, at least for me. A charismatic performer can engage the audience with a classical program too and I'd say Yuzu is one of the best in this. All you have to look at is the crowd reaction when he goes into his Chopin or Otonal step sequences.

Sorry, I forgot the meaning of charisma for a minute and misinterpreted the meaning, forget what I said and let me start again:

I feel Hanyus classical charisma is generated from good choreograhy + good musicality + good execution, and less from full emotion/performance - so I feel a similar sort of "charisma" is achievable for Yuma (compared to 2014&2017 fun hanyu SP with lots of outward performance which is not Yumas style).

In terms of Shun, I don't feel any charisma at all in his JGPF programs. He jumps, but the rest of it is almost robotic. I might just have different opinions though - which is fine in an artistic performance.

Let's take shoma Uno.
many people love shoma loca, but for me it was his most boring and repetitive program. However, a lot of people don't like shomas senior Debut so as much whereas I'm a big fan of it.

Edit: https://youtu.be/k-yxi7HI7a4 . This literally reminds me of Matteo rizzos earlier SP. And look how fantastic his performances are getting (at least his previous 2 seasons)

 

[TallyT]

Yeah, no. Yuma is a great technician but still lacking a lot when it comes to performance. He's been rewarded in PCS because of the way the current judging system works and political favour, that's all.

The only Japanese man who is truly complete and 'has everything' is Yuzuru, all the others are lacking something one way or another.

To be fair, comparing anyone to Yuzuru, especially two teenagers, is a tad unfair (though it occurs to me that Yuma is just that bit older than Yuzu was at Nice 2012, without the personality but also without the health drawbacks, so maybe by Beijing, especially if it's delayed...)

But you can't blame the federation - any federation - for hoping and trying to create another superstar. I don't think either boy will be the next Yuzuru or Daisuke Takahashi - they've got the technical coming along nicely, but no one can manufacture that level of charisma and audience magnetism- but I can see Yuma as the next star especially as he is the federation favourite and that will give him confidence. Shun may have to fight harder for his place in the sun.