ISU announces Selection Criteria for JGPF | Page 25 | Golden Skate

ISU announces Selection Criteria for JGPF

Colonel Green

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Country
Canada
If they only have to skate once because they win it, then Isabeau could have just stayed home instead of showing up at Austria.
I mean, she could have, but why would she? Competition experience is good, winning medals and establishing your reputation further are good. Unless you’re injured, like Zhilina, there’s no reason to stay home.
 

GretchenG

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
No you only had to win one, but they made the announcement so late (literally a day or two before Linz) that it was kind of too late for anyone to withdraw and be replaced.

To be honest, the backlash has been so negative I almost hope Nika doesn't skate, everyone seems really annoyed about it and I feel like it might colour people's perceptions of her. But at the same time since it would mean she was still injured I hope she does go!

It's a big old mess.
I know you only have to win one, but you should have to skate two competitions. Or you could just win your first assignment, and then drop out of your second one without any consequences. I just don't like it. Everybody else skated two. Both Akateva and Levito won their first assignment. Should they have just bailed out of their second one? Stayed at home and practiced, save time and money? I'm not cool with it, I'm going to be mad.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
If they allow Zhilina into the final after only one event, I'm going to be really disgusted. I know these are exceptional circumstances, but I think that's going too far off the reservation. Excuse the term. Your Actual Results list is what I have, except I've swapped out Zhilina for Zinina. If you exclude Zhilina, there are only five winners. That means that the girl with the highest second place finish, which is Zinina, qualifies. I can't wait to find out which of all of us is right. There should be prizes.
They are allowing a Japanese woman with zero events, so they better offer Zhilina a spot if she is able. It may be ambiguous what they mean as total score, and if they are looking for silver medal with that total score or just total score, but the document says unambiguously,

  1. i) The 7 winners of each individual ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Event will qualify for the Final.
this clause is made specifically independent of the second performance, so it qualifies Zhilina the same way it qualifies Thorngren
 

GretchenG

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
:ot: I kinda agree.
Whose skaters is it again, that fall apart physically when they're seventeen? I checked out the ages of some of the young prodigies, and the youngest one will be 17 1/2 in Feb 2026. I would like to see them stick around, too.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
I know you only have to win one, but you should have to skate two competitions. Or you could just win your first assignment, and then drop out of your second one without any consequences. I just don't like it. Everybody else skated two. Both Akateva and Levito won their first assignment. Should they have just bailed out of their second one? Stayed at home and practiced, save time and money? I'm not cool with it, I'm going to be mad.
It was too late to drop out at the point the rules were announced. It was less than a week before Linz. Malinin, Browns, Mukhortova/Evegeniev, Sarnovskiy and Levito all went and they skated, because they are athletes, even though they were already qualified. And Barton mentioned it numerous times. Akatyeva, not being a clairvoyant, couldn’t have known that she had qualified twice at the time of competing in Gdansk.

Plus, respecting Zhilina’s gold was the only break Team Russia got, unless they also rule in favour of Petushkova/Malikov vs Safina/Berulava
 
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CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I'm not sure what you mean by "vary in their nature". Are you just talking about the fact that they're different competitors and a different judging panel? Anyway, all of the countries that host a GP place their top skaters at home. It's an imperfect system, and I'm tired of judges being caught cheating, put on suspension for six months, and then being invited back. And fans have their opinions, where some people think a skater was unfairly judged and others don't. So what are we going to do?

Yes, like one judging panel could be very strict, another could be very generous, another could favour home skaters, another could be neutral. One competition might have everyone fall before Skater X skates so Skater X gets a huge score compared to a competition where everyone prior to Skater Y does well so if Skater Y does well it’s not as big a deal. And obviously things like skate order/“leaving room” matter too. Many judges neglect to treat skaters’ performances as absolutes and will always compare them to the field of that competition.
 

GretchenG

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
They are allowing a Japanese woman with zero events, so they better offer Zhilina a spot if she is able. It may be ambiguous what they mean as total score, and if they are looking for silver medal with that total score or just total score, but the document says unambiguously,

  1. i) The 7 winners of each individual ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Event will qualify for the Final.
this clause is made specifically independent of the second performance, so it qualifies Zhilina the same way it qualifies Thorngren
According to Ted Barton, if you're looking for the silver medalist with the highest score, it's for individual competition scores. Thorngren skated in two GPs, as did every other winner. Here's a question for you, is there another Russian skater who could have taken Zhilina's second assignment and likely made it into the final? Someone that can score above 200 on an international stage?
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
According to Ted Barton, if you're looking for the silver medalist with the highest score, it's for individual competition scores. Thorngren skated in two GPs, as did every other winner. Here's a question for you, is there another Russian skater who could have taken Zhilina's second assignment and likely made it into the final? Someone that can score above 200 on an international stage?
Look, the criteria was published, and Zhilina’s name was on the screen as qualifying finalist during the women’s skate in Linz. The selection criteria says everyone who won a gold medal, period. They were even willing to have 8 skaters in the final with gold medals to honour gold medals (7+1 wild card)—though, no, it wasn’t going to happen at the time the criteria was published.

So, yes, Zhilina has gold, and it is backed up by one of the top 6 scores (just like they are selecting the non-gold medalists) so it the criteria this year is not combined two events, it is the highest achievement, which is either being a champion or outscoring the next best guy.

Zhilina is in.

And, lol, calls for her to WD if she is able to skate are as unacceptable as the calls for Thorngren to WD
 

GretchenG

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
It was too late to drop out at the point the rules were announced. It was less than a week before Linz. Malinin, Browns, Mukhortova/Evegeniev, Sarnovskiy and Levito all went and they skated, because they are athletes, even though they were already qualified. And Barton mentioned it numerous times. Akatyeva, not being a clairvoyant, couldn’t have known that she had qualified twice at the time of competing in Gdansk.

Plus, respecting Zhilina’s gold was the only break Team Russia got, unless they also rule in favour of Petushkova/Malikov vs Safina/Berulava
What do you mean by respecting Zhilina's gold being the only break team Russia got"? I don't follow junior pairs, I barely follow senior pairs. Perhaps you could tell me what it is you're referring to. Just a note. Russia has, as I have it on my list, four girls going to the final, three ice dance couples going, and four boys going. They're dominating. Where/why is it that they need a break?
 

GretchenG

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
Yes, like one judging panel could be very strict, another could be very generous, another could favour home skaters, another could be neutral. One competition might have everyone fall before Skater X skates so Skater X gets a huge score compared to a competition where everyone prior to Skater Y does well so if Skater Y does well it’s not as big a deal. And obviously things like skate order/“leaving room” matter too. Many judges neglect to treat skaters’ performances as absolutes and will always compare them to the field of that competition.
I totally agree with you regarding judges neglecting to treat skaters performances as absolutes. We score down to the 100th of a point. I thought that when we changed to the current scoring system that we were supposed to have said goodbye to things like judges allowing skate order and "leaving room" for skaters who might be better. That drives me crazy. I've learned to just relax and deal with it, I kind of ignore it, because there's no other choice if I still want to watch skating, but I still think it's absolutely wrong. That was the whole reason the system changed. They're so bloody lazy!
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
What do you mean by respecting Zhilina's gold being the only break team Russia got"? I don't follow junior pairs, I barely follow senior pairs. Perhaps you could tell me what it is you're referring to. Just a note. Russia has, as I have it on my list, four girls going to the final, three ice dance couples going, and four boys going. They're dominating. Where/why is it that they need a break?
Because Russia was not allowed to send skaters to two stages and the criteria is a gold medal. So the Russian women who were assigned to these stages missed their chance to go there and ended up clock-blocking each other, instead of collecting all seven gold medals and having all-Russian final.

They also found out too late that Akatyeva qualified, so had no opportunity to give another woman a chance to win gold in Gdansk without Akatyeva blocking.

The pairs’ event was inexplicably cut from 6 pairs to 4, eliminating one Russian pair who would otherwise had qualified to the final.

The criteria clearly states that all gold medalists would go into final. Zhilina won a gold medal. Hence Zhilina qualified.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I totally agree with you regarding judges neglecting to treat skaters performances as absolutes. We score down to the 100th of a point. I thought that when we changed to the current scoring system that we were supposed to have said goodbye to things like judges allowing skate order and "leaving room" for skaters who might be better. That drives me crazy. I've learned to just relax and deal with it, I kind of ignore it, because there's no other choice if I still want to watch skating, but I still think it's absolutely wrong. That was the whole reason the system changed. They're so bloody lazy!

I get that judges are human so naturally they will compare a skater before to a skater after. But skaters should be judged by what they do in the moment as that is most fair. That Finlandia judge who gave Valieva +5s across the board (other than the fall) is ridiculous - essentially saying she was perfect and hit all GOE criteria on every element. The Linz judge who gave Zinina the same performance score as Levito when she fell twice and Levito was clean was out to lunch too.
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
I get that judges are human so naturally they will compare a skater before to a skater after. But skaters should be judged by what they do in the moment as that is most fair. That judge who gave Valieva +5s across the board is ridiculous - essentially saying she was perfect and hit all GOE criteria on every element. The judge who gave Zinina the same performance score as Levito when she fell twice and Levito was clean was out to lunch too.
So, after Ilia's win this week, has he earned his spot in JGPF?
 

GretchenG

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
Look, the criteria was published, and Zhilina’s name was on the screen as qualifying finalist during the women’s skate in Linz. The selection criteria says everyone who won a gold medal, period. They were even willing to have 8 skaters in the final with gold medals to honour gold medals (7+1 wild card)—though, no, it wasn’t going to happen at the time the criteria was published.

So, yes, Zhilina has gold, and it is backed up by one of the top 6 scores (just like they are selecting the non-gold medalists) so it the criteria this year is not combined two events, it is the highest achievement, which is either being a champion or outscoring the next best guy.

Zhilina is in.

And, lol, calls for her to WD if she is able to skate are as unacceptable as the calls for Thorngren to WD
Okay, I didn't see that, and nobody else here has mentioned it, so I am clueless about it. If she's in, she's in. The US isn't losing anybody, and I didn't expect us to be on the podium anyway. I don't like it, but they've already made the decision, so I'm not going to sit here and throw a temper tantrum. And calling for her to withdraw is ridiculous, I agree. That reminds me of back in the day when Mirai Nagasu got the bronze at Nationals, and they still sent Ashley Wagner to the Olympics. There were people online who said, despite the fact that it wasn't Ashley who made that decision, she should have the honor to go to the US Olympic Committee and withdraw. Like that wouldn't have hurt her career. LOL. Really.
 

GretchenG

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
Because Russia was not allowed to send skaters to two stages and the criteria is a gold medal. So the Russian women who were assigned to these stages missed their chance to go there and ended up clock-blocking each other, instead of collecting all seven gold medals and having all-Russian final.

They also found out too late that Akatyeva qualified, so had no opportunity to give another woman a chance to win gold in Gdansk without Akatyeva blocking.

The pairs’ event was inexplicably cut from 6 pairs to 4, eliminating one Russian pair who would otherwise had qualified to the final.

The criteria clearly states that all gold medalists would go into final. Zhilina won a gold medal. Hence Zhilina qualified.
That's what you call giving the Russians a break? Allowing them to manipulate the system so that they can win every gold medal and then sweep the final? You should look up the definition of "giving someone a break". I've already heard that they said during the ladies FS that Zhilina was going to the final. As to the rest of what you said about using opportunities 2 pull girls out if they won their first assignment so that you can place somebody else in their second assignment, I feel like that's cheating. I think it would be ignoring the spirit of the Grand Prix series. I'm really not thrilled with the idea of skaters going to the final who haven't skated two competitions. That's just my opinion.
 

Jontor

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Country
Sweden
So, after Ilia's win this week, has he earned his spot in JGPF?
Well, with the new rules that ISU published this week, he already qualified as he had won a previous JGP. All the winners got through to JGPF.
Which makes it a bit irritating that the ISU revealed the rules this late. Ilia could have stayed at home and another American skater could have gotten the chance instead.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
So, after Ilia's win this week, has he earned his spot in JGPF?
To be fair nobody questioned Malinin’s aptitude. Chiu got a mention in another thread, Thorngren got the most and a couple of posters thought Levito wouldn’t score as high second time, as she did in France. Malinin, no. Everyone loves Malinin.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
That's what you call giving the Russians a break? Allowing them to manipulate the system so that they can win every gold medal and then sweep the final? You should look up the definition of "giving someone a break". I've already heard that they said during the ladies FS that Zhilina was going to the final. As to the rest of what you said about using opportunities 2 pull girls out if they won their first assignment so that you can place somebody else in their second assignment, I feel like that's cheating. I think it would be ignoring the spirit of the Grand Prix series. I'm really not thrilled with the idea of skaters going to the final who haven't skated two competitions. That's just my opinion.

So long as Russians didn’t exceed cap on participation, there is no manipulation of sending a skater to each event in the series. Initially they assigned 2 skaters to each event and obeyed all the rules of the assignments. If a Russian skater won each event in the series… they still didn’t break any rules. GP series is specifically designed to let more skaters to skater internationally than normal quotas in the second half of the season allow. Russians have endless supply of junior women who are insanely good (because they kept like 5 or so back from the JGP who are pretty darn awesome) 🤷‍♀️ Sucks to be them, I guess? Doesn’t help that Japanese are ignoring the event altogether.

I mean, I wish the States sent Annis to Courchevel 2 instead of the two men who scored in 170s…

Cracking down on pairs to allow Japanese wild cards in singles in, was unfair to the whole discipline.

I feel that the criteria shouldn’t be bend one way or another. If all gold medalists go, all gold medalists go, including Zhilina. If there was kicking out of gold medalists, sure, sieve her out. But since the second stage performance has zero impact on other medalists’ qualifications, theoretically, score or medals, why is her zero is any worse than Japanese 0-0?

What I personally consider fair is all 2 gold medal winners go, then the highest ranked by total combined score to make up 6 including pairs, and the Japanese can add one entry into each discipline, fine, but they must post a score higher or equal to the lowest combined from two internal events.

That would exclude Zhilina, yes.
 
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GretchenG

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
I get that judges are human so naturally they will compare a skater before to a skater after. But skaters should be judged by what they do in the moment as that is most fair. That Finlandia judge who gave Valieva +5s across the board (other than the fall) is ridiculous - essentially saying she was perfect and hit all GOE criteria on every element. The Linz judge who gave Zinina the same performance score as Levito when she fell twice and Levito was clean was out to lunch too.
Oh yeah, judge number eight. I saw that. Someone did that to Hubbell/Donohue at the US International Classic. The Russians are getting serious. I just can't believe that people are okay with cheating. How can you be proud of yourself for your country, or whatever, if you did not compete honestly. It's not real. What kind of people does that make them? Obviously it's not everybody, it's the people at the top. I didn't know that happened with the junior girls. I just looked up the judges on the girls Austrian free skate, and the Austrian judge is number seven, and I saw higher PCS numbers for Isabeau. What is it you're referring to?
 

GretchenG

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
So long as Russians didn’t exceed cap on participation, there is no manipulation of sending a skater to each event in the series. Initially they assigned 2 skaters to each event and obeyed all the rules of the assignments. If a Russian skater won each event in the series… they still didn’t break any rules. GP series is specifically designed to let more skaters to skater internationally than normal quotas in the second half of the season allow. Russians have endless supply of junior women who are insanely good (because they kept like 5 or so back from the JGP who are pretty darn awesome) 🤷‍♀️ Sucks to be them, I guess? Doesn’t help that Japanese are ignoring the event altogether.

I mean, I wish the States sent Annis to Courchevel 2 instead of the two men who scored in 170s…

Cracking down on pairs to allow Japanese wild cards in singles in, was unfair to the whole discipline.

I feel that the criteria shouldn’t be bend one way or another. If all gold medalists go, all gold medalists go, including Zhilina. If there was kicking out of gold medalists, sure, sieve her out. But since the second stage performance has zero impact on other medalists’ qualifications, theoretically, score or medals, why is her zero is any worse than Japanese 0-0?

What I personally consider fair is all 2 gold medal winners go, then the highest ranked by total combined score to make up 6 including pairs, and the Japanese can add one entry into each discipline, fine, but they must post a score higher or equal to the lowest combined from two internal events.

That would exclude Zhilina, yes.
Actually, I'm not okay with the Japanese being able to add someone to the final. It's just wrong. People from other countries got their shots and took the chance and went to compete. Japan just said no, we're not going, but you're going to allow one of us into your final. I'm not okay with that and I'm not okay with anyone in the final who hasn't competed twice. Call it what you will, it's just my opinion. I hope this never happens again. It all started when France decided that they don't recognize Russia's internal covid vaccine, so they wouldn't allow any of them into the French JGPs. Oh, and it didn't help that there were two JGPs in France because Canada decided they didn't want to have one there.
 
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