The Bielmann spin: Sasha vs. Irina
- Thread starter yoy_mama
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- Aug 7, 2003
Actually Joe, that pic is from a sprial sequence. It was taken during practice at the 97 Goodwill Games (its from her Rach SP). I'm not so sure I'd like it as much with a coe though.
I've had that pic saved on my computer for quite sometime as it is one of my favorites.
um...number 1, we have seen it; number 2 why would you think that she couldn't do more than we've seen. Just because something isn't being done doesn't mean it can't be done.
I think there are very few who do a "true" Beillmann position. When I think of the spin/position, I think of torso straight, not turned to the side; chest held up, not down parallel (or close) to the ice; straight skating leg; arch in the back, and head held back, to form almost an oval with the Beillmann leg and back/neck/head. Very few do this particular position, and fewer do it well.
BTW, up to about 2 1/2 years ago, Griazev had a very nice Beillmann spin position, although the spin itself was a little slow...and could even do them on each leg. One of the better men to try the move.
BTW, up to about 2 1/2 years ago, Griazev had a very nice Beillmann spin position, although the spin itself was a little slow...and could even do them on each leg. One of the better men to try the move.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Some poster in this thread, I believe, mentioned something like that. I believe the poster quoted some choreographer. could have been TT. Apparently there are many elements and 'touches' she no longer uses, and still others that have not been seen in public.BravesSkateFan said:um...number 1, we have seen it; number 2 why would you think that she couldn't do more than we've seen. Just because something isn't being done doesn't mean it can't be done.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Kasey - Is there an official definition of the Bielman on the books? It's true I've now seen several variations.Kasey said:
This has to be Griazev's 'break-thru' year. I kind of got the feeling he will be pushed by the Federation over Klimkin. Dammmmm.
Joe
Joe,
I don't know if there is an official definition of body position during the Beillmann...I'm just kind of judging based on the originator of the spin, and the positions she could contort herself into! But I think I am a harder judge, in that the easier positions are "Cheating" in my opinion! 
From what I know of his programs for this year, I think Griazev can breakthrough this season, legitimately. I hope he can hold his head and nerves together. But I'll be :scowl: about Klimkin also....
I don't know if there is an official definition of body position during the Beillmann...I'm just kind of judging based on the originator of the spin, and the positions she could contort herself into!
But I think I am a harder judge, in that the easier positions are "Cheating" in my opinion! From what I know of his programs for this year, I think Griazev can breakthrough this season, legitimately. I hope he can hold his head and nerves together. But I'll be :scowl: about Klimkin also....
Joesitz said:
Kasey, I hope it's OK if I answer this question.
I came across the following definition of the Biellmann spin in Glossary of Skating Terms by Kay Nowak :
I guess it can be considered "official".
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Here is my one and only QUESTION.
I've wondered about this through 6 pages of this thread. If the Biellmann spin is in the "books" as the Biellmann spin that Denise made famous:
Q: Has anyone ever seen Sasha do a Biellmann spin?
Hence, I question the thread title. I have personally never seen Sasha do one (and my only views of all top skaters are on TV, video, internet), so I have no idea at all how to compare a "Sasha Biellmann" to an "Irina Biellmann." Call me confused - and that might be confusion over what exactly is a Biellmann position (spin or spiral).
Q: Maybe my confusion has everything to do with the lack of a true Biellmann description. Are certain types of catch foot spins / spirals considered partial Biellmann's or something like that, even if they are not in the classic Biellmann position I think of (based on Denise's pictures of the Biellmann spin)? IS there such a thing as a "half Biellmann?" I saw that term used somewhere for the first time recently - summer off season discussion and all. More confused. And if many different catch foot types positions are Biellmann's, or partial Biellmann's, then how does that all fit in with the 2005/2006 ISU rules about foot over the head for X spins, X seconds, etc.?
At this point, I'd love clarification on what a Biellmann position is as far as the ISU (judging) is concerned.
Bottom line - if the topic of this thread is "who's got the better Biellmann" - Irina v. Sasha - then let's see some pictures of BOTH of them actually doing it.
DG
I've wondered about this through 6 pages of this thread. If the Biellmann spin is in the "books" as the Biellmann spin that Denise made famous:
Q: Has anyone ever seen Sasha do a Biellmann spin?
Hence, I question the thread title. I have personally never seen Sasha do one (and my only views of all top skaters are on TV, video, internet), so I have no idea at all how to compare a "Sasha Biellmann" to an "Irina Biellmann." Call me confused - and that might be confusion over what exactly is a Biellmann position (spin or spiral).
Q: Maybe my confusion has everything to do with the lack of a true Biellmann description. Are certain types of catch foot spins / spirals considered partial Biellmann's or something like that, even if they are not in the classic Biellmann position I think of (based on Denise's pictures of the Biellmann spin)? IS there such a thing as a "half Biellmann?" I saw that term used somewhere for the first time recently - summer off season discussion and all. More confused. And if many different catch foot types positions are Biellmann's, or partial Biellmann's, then how does that all fit in with the 2005/2006 ISU rules about foot over the head for X spins, X seconds, etc.?
At this point, I'd love clarification on what a Biellmann position is as far as the ISU (judging) is concerned.
Bottom line - if the topic of this thread is "who's got the better Biellmann" - Irina v. Sasha - then let's see some pictures of BOTH of them actually doing it.
DG
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Hi, Doggygirl. About the title of this thread, new GS member Yoy-mama (a young Sasha fan, I bet! ) saw this picture from Sasha's photoshoot for Seventeen magazine. Even though this is not really a skating picture, it led Yoy to speculate about whether Sasha's extaordinary flexibility might allow her to do a great Bielmann spin -- maybe better than Irina's.
From here the thread took on a life of its own, as threads do, LOL.
Anyway, you hit the jackpot with your $64,000 question. In the coming season, what exactly will the judges be looking for in this move? How will they evaluate all the various catch-foot moves within the evolving rules of the NJS?
About Irina's, she does not achieve an upright body position and she does not hold the skate with both hands. Will the judges give her a level four anyway? I guess we'll have to stay tuned.
MM
PS. Hey, look! Here's Sasha doing something-or-other:
http://tvp.pl/tvppl/images/2005/03/16/202190/img85.jpg
) saw this picture from Sasha's photoshoot for Seventeen magazine. Even though this is not really a skating picture, it led Yoy to speculate about whether Sasha's extaordinary flexibility might allow her to do a great Bielmann spin -- maybe better than Irina's.From here the thread took on a life of its own, as threads do, LOL.
Anyway, you hit the jackpot with your $64,000 question. In the coming season, what exactly will the judges be looking for in this move? How will they evaluate all the various catch-foot moves within the evolving rules of the NJS?
About Irina's, she does not achieve an upright body position and she does not hold the skate with both hands. Will the judges give her a level four anyway? I guess we'll have to stay tuned.
MM
PS. Hey, look! Here's Sasha doing something-or-other:
http://tvp.pl/tvppl/images/2005/03/16/202190/img85.jpg
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- Joined
- Sep 23, 2004
Mathman said:Hi, Doggygirl. About the title of this thread, new GS member Yoy-mama (a young Sasha fan, I bet!
From here the thread took on a life of its own, as threads do, LOL.
Anyway, you hit the jackpot with your $64,000 question. In the coming season, what exactly will the judges be looking for in this move? How will they evaluate all the various catch-foot moves within the evolving rules of the NJS?
About Irina's, she does not achieve an upright body position and she does not hold the skate with both hands. Will the judges give her a level four anyway? I guess we'll have to stay tuned.
MM
PS. Hey, look! Here's Sasha doing something-or-other:
http://tvp.pl/tvppl/images/2005/03/16/202190/img85.jpg
Great pictures MM! OK, so I don't think we have seen Sasha doing the Bielmann Spin. However, looking at the pictures of Denise, there are some point that could tell us if Sasha, given her flexibility, could perform the spin. Denise kept a very upright back, with a good arch, while the free leg was in a very straight position, almost split-like. Her head was also puller back, and her foot over the head.
Now, in the picture, Sasha does have a good arch on the back, although her torso is not as upright as Denise (from what I've seen in other pictures). However, the arch on her back is good for her to keep her head just beneath the foot. The leg position is not as straight as Denise's in the picture, but I get the feeling (and I might be a tad biased here) that Sasha could pull her leg a bit higher. I think that actually it is easier to hit the Bielmann position when the skater is actually spinning.
MM, I love the second picture. I would call it a catch-foot, and to be honest, I like it better than the bielmann
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Hikaru said:MM, I love the second picture. I would call it a catch-foot, and to be honest, I like it better than the bielmann
I too love that position. Since the season is drawing closer, it's probably time to get the new rule document out again, dust it off and read it. MM, I do recall the new rules to be specific about the Biellmann position as it pertains to when the "counting begins" (seconds for spirals, revolutions for spins) as being when the foot is all the way over the head. Do you remember if the new rules pertaining to Biellmann's said anything about both hands being on the blade v the way Irina does it with one hand on the wrist?
It's interesting that SO much detail was included specific to the Biellmann in this round of rule changes, but not so much detail (that I recall) about other catch foot type positions that as far as I know, are something else but not Biellmann positions. (I'll say again that I LOVE that position of Sasha's!)
DG
ISU requirements reg. Biellmann position
ISU's requirement to the Biellmann stated in Instructions for Technical Specialists - Singles is "The Biellmann position is considered when the boot of the leg is above head-level". Nothing is said about upright body position or holding the blade with one/both hands.
Doggygirl said:
ISU's requirement to the Biellmann stated in Instructions for Technical Specialists - Singles is "The Biellmann position is considered when the boot of the leg is above head-level". Nothing is said about upright body position or holding the blade with one/both hands.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I presume then, that the catch foot camel which Butryskaya did so mangnificently, would now be called a Bielman?Shanti said:
Joe
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Shanti said:
Interesting. I've always thought of the Biellmann as, well, the position Denise made famous. Maybe I've always misunderstood, or maybe the ISU is re-defining that (or defining it in writing for the first time??) as any position where the boot is over the head?
I wonder how much confusion this will cause in the coming season as skaters / coaches try to "go" for various levels of spins and sprirals.....
DG
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Maria:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/wi...ure_skating_worlds_ap/t1_butyrskaya_ap_01.jpg
Question: Do skaters ever cut their hands on their edges when they reach back to grab the blade behind them?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/wi...ure_skating_worlds_ap/t1_butyrskaya_ap_01.jpg
Question: Do skaters ever cut their hands on their edges when they reach back to grab the blade behind them?
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Mathman said:
I like Maria's even better than Sasha's!! I know I've said it before - but I still miss Maria. She added something really interesting to the competitions for me.
LOL on the edges - I have this vision of space aliens landing on earth, going to a skating rink, and saying "WOW. These Earthlings hide their weapons on the bottom of their shoes!"
DG
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Shanti - That's a nice pic of Elena L. Her boot is above her head, however, with one hand on the blade and the other on the shin, it does not look like classic Denise!!!
If you look at Irina's it's one hand on the blade the other on the wrist. Also not classic Denise.
If you look at the acrobats in cirque du soleil you will see both hands on the heel and the free foot is not only above the head but coming down to the face.
Wonder why they didn't accept Denise's spin for the definition?
Joe
If you look at Irina's it's one hand on the blade the other on the wrist. Also not classic Denise.
If you look at the acrobats in cirque du soleil you will see both hands on the heel and the free foot is not only above the head but coming down to the face.
Wonder why they didn't accept Denise's spin for the definition?
Joe
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2003
Joesitz said:
Denise's spin is much more difficult than the ones that those girls or Pluschenko, for that matter, perform. While everyone else bends their spinning leg until they achieve the position, Denise begins with a straight spinning leg. The result is much more beautiful than the bent knee that starts to straighten as the skater wrestles with stretching the free leg over the head.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Mathman said:
MM, http://eastonice.free.fr/Olia/skating/Spartak/0302IS.jpg I think Irina just opts to hold the skate with only one hand. click on the link above and look how close her hand is to the blade, while the other hand holds the blade.
ISU rule on the Biellman is its only considered a biellman if the skaters leg is pulled above his/her head.
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