TT choreographed both MK's LP and a new SP

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 17, 2005

registered said:
OK, so what are MK's new programs, exactlly? Since amongst complementary quotes from Tatiana (and it's been known for a while that TT worked on Michellels programs) no actual announcement of the choice of music was made, should the article be considered a non news, but rather a PR spin of a mighty Kwan handlers? I haven't found out anything I didn't know already (for the MK's part).

(Sarcasm off. I've been writing it along the lines of Cohen haters, who're quick to condemn any piece of news, coming from her journals.)

It took awhile for an announcement of Swan Lake for Cohen. Before that, the announcement that Cohen would be working with TT brought a full rash of glee for her fans. I think TT is known for creating choreo for the style of the skater she is working with. After one dark piece of music in Dortmund; and one over repititive piece in Moscow, what can TT bring to the Mighty Kwan? Hopefully, we will see the outline in the Cheesfest.

In the meantime we have to put up with the glee that they are working together.

There are a few Cohen 'haters' in GS, but not to the extent you seem to believe. Cohen is well respected in GS if not adored. (My consensus from reading all those posts everyday.)

Joe

R.D. · Aug 17, 2005

After one dark piece of music in Dortmund; and one over repititive piece in Moscow, what can TT bring to the Mighty Kwan? Hopefully, we will see the outline in the Cheesfest.

The other thing one has to keep in mind is that she and/or her crew might change it down the road (remember "Robin Lake"?). That said, let's see at Campbell's, and possibly SA if she happens to appear there.

In the meantime though, yes, Kwan fans should be overjoyed.

mzheng · Aug 17, 2005

Red Dog said:
In the meantime though, yes, Kwan fans should be overjoyed.

Well, this Kwan fan is not that overjoyed...nonthless it is very nice of TT praising of Kwan.

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 17, 2005

waxel said:
Thanks MM. Now I understand that Mrvica is the artist (musician) and not the composer. I listened to the (very) brief clips on amazon.com that include 2 of Johnny's selections. Hmmm. I refuse to be negative about Johnny's program--- so I'll just hope that the edit will be spectacular.

Hi Waxel - I wouldn't worry about Johnny's cut of the music. TT knows what she is doing.

Everyone: I think I'm correct in saying that The Swan Song is part of Saint Saens "Carnival of the Animals". He did not call it the Dying Swan. He did not say it was a female Swan.

All that came from Pavolva's insistence to Fokine that she needed a small piece for special showing for the Tsar. The performance was to be the following night. It was Fokine who created The Dying Swan for Pavlova and used Saint Saens music. The audience was overwhelmed, and she took it on tour with her own company. For those interested I would suggest Maya Plitsetskaya's and Alicia Makova's versions to compare. They have the same choreography but one can see what I mean when I talk about style - so different yet both valid.

Joe

PrincessLeppard · Aug 17, 2005

Mathman said:
Maybe it is so easy for her to tack an extra double on the end that she can do it just for show, even though in doesn't earn her any extra points on the tech side. Doing an extra double does show off how secure your landing edge was on the second triple, so it might impress the judges in COE or PCS.

MM

but.....that's what cursed Evgeni at GPF 2003. Because he did the extra jump after the 3A, they nullified all of it. Has that been fixed yet or does that rule still stand? (don't get me started on phantom combos...) I would hate to see her lose on a technicality if she did do both 3 jump combos.

flowjo35 · Aug 17, 2005

Michelle seems to trying something different. Hopefully working with TT will be successful. I think we will see a good program at Campbell's, which hopefully by SA will be even greater. MK fans have something to look forward too. I just like to part about TT working with Michelle to tweak the programs as the season rolls along

I hope this is a great season for Michelle.

mzheng · Aug 17, 2005

PrincessLeppard said:
but.....that's what cursed Evgeni at GPF 2003. Because he did the extra jump after the 3A, they nullified all of it. Has that been fixed yet or does that rule still stand? (don't get me started on phantom combos...) I would hate to see her lose on a technicality if she did do both 3 jump combos.

I guess by the time competetion around, TT will have her trim one of her 3/3/2 down to 3/3. TT said in a interview that she like her skater skated to more difficult program at the beginning than trim it down when big comp around, this way her skater has better chance to skate clean and more emote.

Mathman · Aug 17, 2005

PrincessLeppard said:
but.....that's what cursed Evgeni at GPF 2003. Because he did the extra jump after the 3A, they nullified all of it. Has that been fixed yet or does that rule still stand? (don't get me started on phantom combos...) I would hate to see her lose on a technicality if she did do both 3 jump combos.

I just checked the rules again. As I understand it, Evgeni's mistake was that he had already done 3 combos, so when he did a fourth combo, the whole thing was taken off the board. I think that rule is still the same.

But as far as I can tell (it's a little bit harder to read the rules on the ISU site now, because they are all collected together in one document), if you do a three-jump combo and then another one, you still get credit for the first two jumps of the combo. (?)

Irina's mistake at worlds was different. She had already done two triple loops (one in combination), so when she did a triple loop / double loop, that was a Zayak violation (three triple loops in all). So only the double loop counted, as a solo jump.

Mathman

Mathman · Aug 17, 2005

mzheng said:
I guess by the time competetion around, TT will have her trim one of her 3/3/2 down to 3/3. TT said in a interview that she like her skater skated to more difficult program at the beginning than trim it down when big comp around, this way her skater has better chance to skate clean and more emote.

IMHO this is good advice for Michelle, too. The opposite -- starting with a bare-bones version and adding to it -- this strategy seems a lot more risky to me. It might not be so easy to come up with a triple triple when you need it, if you have been doing a watered down version of the program all season.

MM

skatingfan5 · Aug 17, 2005

registered said:
OK, so what are MK's new programs, exactlly? Since amongst complementary quotes from Tatiana (and it's been known for a while that TT worked on Michellels programs) no actual announcement of the choice of music was made, should the article be considered a non news, but rather a PR spin of a mighty Kwan handlers? I haven't found out anything I didn't know already (for the MK's part).

(Sarcasm off. I've been writing it along the lines of Cohen haters, who're quick to condemn any piece of news, coming from her journals.)

Glad to know that you are being sarcastic, because I don't really understand why you expected to find Michelle's programs announced in a story that was about Tarasova. It was Tarasova returning to Russia, Tarasova choreographing for Kwan ... and Weir, Goebel, etc., Tarasova coaching Arakawa and Weir, ... The "news" related to Kwan for most people was that TT had choreographed both a SP and LP for Michelle -- many were still wondering if she would be keeping her "Spartacus" program from last season. It's nice that some (including you) had more of an inside scoop on this, but for most of us, this really was news. For those who think is was "PR spin" -- how much do you wager they mighty handlers had to pay TT to say what she did? All the expense of shipping her belongings back to Moscow? All her travel expenses for the coming year? A new apartment in Moscow? How much do you reckon it cost them? I thought so. (Sarcasm off -- I've been writing this using the stylistic guidelines of your own post.)

skatingfan5 · Aug 17, 2005

Mathman said:
I just checked the rules again. As I understand it, Evgeni's mistake was that he had already done 3 combos, so when he did a fourth combo, the whole thing was taken off the board. I think that rule is still the same.

But as far as I can tell (it's a little bit harder to read the rules on the ISU site now, because they are all collected together in one document), if you do a three-jump combo and then another one, you still get credit for the first two jumps of the combo. (?)

Irina's mistake at worlds was different. She had already done two triple loops (one in combination), so when she did a triple loop / double loop, that was a Zayak violation (three triple loops in all). So only the double loop counted, as a solo jump.

Mathman

Actually, when Evengy was penalized, the maximum was only TWO jump combos or sequences, so his third combination didn't count -- the entire combo was considered an "additional element" and didn't count. That maximum was increased to three jump combos or sequences last season. I am really not sure, but I think that you are correct about the situation if a skater were to attempt two three-jump combos -- the first two jumps of the second combination would count, but the last jump would not -- otherwise it would be ridiculously punitive. [Edited to add -- Just read hockeyfan's post and checked Tim's NHK score sheets to make sure and my guess was wrong. It IS the harshly punitive situation -- the entire second three-jump combo/sequence will not count.]

The situation with Irina last year would not be scored the same way this season. The new rules mean that a Zayak rule violation would negate the entire combination/sequence that included a jump for the third time -- the entire combo/sequence would be considered as an "additional element" -- nothing would count.

hockeyfan228 · Aug 17, 2005

The first year of CoP, only two jump combinations/sequences were allowed for Men. Plushenko performed three, the third spontaneous and unplanned, and that's why he received no credit for the third combo.

Last season, three combinations/sequences were allowed, but only one consisting of three jumps. At NHK Goebel performed two three-jump combos and received no credit for the second.

Last season, as Mathman points out, Slutskaya received credit for the 2Lo in combo with the 3Lo, because the 3Lo was the third time she used the jump in the program.

The only rule change listed in communication 1319 that affects these three situations is that "f a third repeated jump is executed in a combination or sequence, the entire combination or sequence will be treated as an additional element and therefore not considered." (p.5)

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-168609-185827-89562-0-file,00.pdf

Mathman · Aug 17, 2005

Thanks, Skatingfan5. To me, all of this says that you should have your program down from the beginning of the season, and not get caught having to improvise something on the fly. In Irina's case, I think she was just so over-the-moon during that performance that she didn't know or care what she was doing.

MM

skatingfan5 · Aug 17, 2005

hockeyfan228 said:
Last season, three combinations/sequences were allowed, but only one consisting of three jumps. At NHK Goebel performed two three-jump combos and received no credit for the second.

Thanks for that info -- I didn't see the GP events last season or closely look at the detailed judges sheets so I didn't realize that Tim's 2nd three jump combo got zilch! That IS a severe penalty -- and could be very costly is a skater doesn't keep his/her wits about them. Potentially losing two triples would be a huge loss for their TES.

mzheng · Aug 17, 2005

skatingfan5 said:
Thanks for that info -- I didn't see the GP events last season or closely look at the detailed judges sheets so I didn't realize that Tim's 2nd three jump combo got zilch! That IS a severe penalty -- and could be very costly is a skater doesn't keep his/her wits about them. Potentially losing two triples would be a huge loss for their TES.

But I think it is easy for skater to keep his/her wits about the number of comb of 3 that he/she had performed. Had you did a 3 jump comb already, this is easy enough to judge by skater him/herself, don't do a 2nd one. Stopped right after 2nd jump in next comb. It is more difficult for a skater to judge on spot for violating Zayak rules, if he/she did not plan his/her jump contents (single jump passes and comb jump passes) carefully. He/she would having a confusing time if he/she thought some of her quad/triple being downgraded, they made up another one on spot.

Mathman · Aug 17, 2005

Thanks for the corrected info, Hockeyfan.

About improvising and the Zayak rule, I think it will affect the men who attempt quads the most. If you plan a quad, but triple it, then you might have to drop that planned triple out of your program later on.

I remember some years Michelle practiced two separate endings for her prgrams. One (usually featuring a split jump at the end) if she hit all her triples, and one with an extra triple toe in case she had missed simething earlier. In those days I don't think there was a limit on the overall number of jumping passes.

Mathman

skatingfan5 · Aug 17, 2005

Mathman said:
I remember some years Michelle practiced two separate endings for her prgrams. One (usually featuring a split jump at the end) if she hit all her triples, and one with an extra triple toe in case she had missed simething earlier. In those days I don't think there was a limit on the overall number of jumping passes.

Before CoP there was no limit on overall number of jumping passes (just the number of triples that could be repeated and the number of combos/sequences). In earlier years Michelle's "Plan A" featured a double axel at the end -- which could become a triple toe if she missed the triple-triple. At least that's how "Salome" was choreographed.

kyla2 · Aug 17, 2005

TT and Michelle

TT is one of the most amazing people to have ever inhabited the world of figure skating. She is literally a legend in her own time-like Michelle. I hope and pray she will be able to give Michelle something super to skate to because this is her Olympic swan song. I know TT will do her best if for no other reason than to maintain her own deservedly sterling reputation as a choreographer. Here's hoping for a program for the ages.Joe Sitz I totally agree with what you said about TT in the beginning of this thread.

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 18, 2005

Mathman said:
Irina's mistake at worlds was different. She had already done two triple loops (one in combination), so when she did a triple loop / double loop, that was a Zayak violation (three triple loops in all). So only the double loop counted, as a solo jump.Mathman

True, but how impressive is that to the judges in terms of PCS scores? She lost a few points for something she really didn't need but I believe she got higher presentation scores for stamina, for covering the ice, for music interpretation, as well as the roar of the crowd etc.etc

Joe.

antmanb · Aug 18, 2005

mzheng said:
But I think it is easy for skater to keep his/her wits about the number of comb of 3 that he/she had performed. Had you did a 3 jump comb already, this is easy enough to judge by skater him/herself, don't do a 2nd one. Stopped right after 2nd jump in next comb. It is more difficult for a skater to judge on spot for violating Zayak rules, if he/she did not plan his/her jump contents (single jump passes and comb jump passes) carefully. He/she would having a confusing time if he/she thought some of her quad/triple being downgraded, they made up another one on spot.

I don't know how easy it is to remember whether you did a combo or not, or how difficult it is to stop yourself from doing one if it is a variation to the prgram you always do in practice. This is why skating plan A and plan B programs is so important but with muscle memory kicking in in can be hard to overide it - that's why my concern would be for Shizuka practising the two 3/3/2s in the same program. If the second 3/3/2 is just in case the first goees goes wrong and she doesn't do it then she should only practice one or the other in one program on the basis that if she's used to doing them both in practice it my be difficult to stop herself from doing it in competition. When you're executing a jump you only havea split second to think of your key word to get the jump - you'd want to be focussing on whatever you do to get that jump done and not "don't do the third jump".

Ant

TT choreographed both MK's LP and a new SP

Joesitz (RIP)

R.D.

mzheng

Joesitz (RIP)

PrincessLeppard

~ Evgeni's Sex Bomb ~

flowjo35

mzheng

Mathman

Mathman

skatingfan5

skatingfan5

hockeyfan228

Mathman

skatingfan5

mzheng

Mathman

skatingfan5

kyla2

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

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