Torvill/Dean's programs

Spirit · Sep 7, 2005

At the risk of getting off topic, I'm curious: do you think that the top three teams at 2005 Worlds (Navka / Kostomarov, Belbin / Agosto, Grushina / Goncharov) are people who express with their entire body? If there was a Torvill-and-Dean scale of 1-10, where would today's current top teams rate on it?

I guess I'm just wondering how far up the totem pole you think the Ex-Lax problem exists.

Piel · Sep 7, 2005

I still cannot enjoy T&D because IMO they look bored. JT is yet to show ANY facial expression other than at times looking like her eyes are going to pop out of her head. Most of their skating reminds me of someone dragging a rag doll around on the ice. I just don't get this pair.

tdnuva · Sep 7, 2005

Piel said:
I still cannot enjoy T&D because IMO they look bored. JT is yet to show ANY facial expression other than at times looking like her eyes are going to pop out of her head. Most of their skating reminds me of someone dragging a rag doll around on the ice. I just don't get this pair.

May I ask which dance pair you prefer? Only to know what you really miss.

Spirit · Sep 7, 2005

One of the best programs I ever saw -- of any kind -- was T&D at a professional competition (probably the 1995 World Team Championships). It brought a smile to my face and to the crowd's faces. The opposing teams stood up and cheered when it was over, grinning all the way. The program was Cecilia.

It started with Jayne standing on the ice looking glamorous, and Christopher looking like a nerd, complete with taped glasses. Before the music started, Christopher, too shy to look directly at Jayne, quietly edged toward her, looking awkward. Jayne kept edging away, giving him leery looks. Finally Christopher came right up to her side and awkwardly put his arm around her, looking as geeky as ever. Jayne frowned at the hand on her shoulder and then gave a deadpan look to the audience, which died laughing.

Then that fast drumbeat of Simon & Garfunkel started up, and the show just got better from there. Christopher did some kind of move where he slapped his own forehead in amazement, and the slap caused his entire body to spin all the way around (upside-down and back again) while on one leg. I don't quite know how he did that; I was having too much fun to watch closely.

Boring?

Not these two.

Piel · Sep 7, 2005

tdnuva said:
May I ask which dance pair you prefer? Only to know what you really miss.

Klimova / Ponamerenko, and Bourne/Kraatz are my all time favorites. I know that Marina is accused of "over emoting" but I really enjoy watching them. Also loved Roca/ Sur, Usova/ Platov, Anissina/ Peizerat and now enjoy Chait and Sakhnovskiy, and Belbin and Agosto. Hated Grishuk, Zhulin, and could not enjoy Punsalan/ Swallow's skating because of the way they treated Roca/Sur over Gorsha's citizenship. Also don't enjoy Lobacheva/Averbuk, Drobiasko/Vanagos, or Denkova/Stavinski.

Did not like the Cecelia or Red Hat programs, but then I don't enjoy humor on ice other than an occasional Lloyd Eisler in drag. :biggrin:

I like what I like and follow skating for fun...not a reason to live. I am not AT ALL educated about ice dance so whether or not I like a particular skater or team is no reflection on the skaters just what I personally like to watch.

tdnuva · Sep 7, 2005

Piel said:
I like what I like and follow skating for fun...not a reason to live. I am not AT ALL educated about ice dance so whether or not I like a particular skater or team is no reflection on the skaters just what I personally like to watch.

Perfectly ok in my book. You seem to like the more spectacular things, sometimes frantic movements. Your taste has no more or less right to exist than mine

For me it's just the more subtle approach. I don't like people who overdo in performance. And maybe my taste also comes from the background of being a singer for about all my life plus a conductor now. I like fine music interpretation. All this makes me like T&D most. Plus - they had superb technique which allowed them not to distract from what they wanted to portray. With many dancers I have the problem that they are so lucky having managed a difficult move that they "fall out of role". That way I can't enjoy the routine. Sorry guys - try harder

anniemg · Sep 7, 2005

tdnuva said:
Perfectly ok in my book. You seem to like the more spectacular things, sometimes frantic movements. Your taste has no more or less right to exist than mine

For me it's just the more subtle approach. I don't like people who overdo in performance. And maybe my taste also comes from the background of being a singer for about all my life plus a conductor now. I like fine music interpretation. All this makes me like T&D most. Plus - they had superb technique which allowed them not to distract from what they wanted to portray. With many dancers I have the problem that they are so lucky having managed a difficult move that they "fall out of role". That way I can't enjoy the routine. Sorry guys - try harder

I understand what you mean. I also like 'fine music interpetetion' as you phrased it, and that's what most dancers lack. But, IMO, it should be the only thing that they shouldn't be lacking, as it's one of the most important things about ice-dance. I guess lots of people have a different opinion.

Piel · Sep 7, 2005

Perfectly ok in my book. You seem to like the more spectacular things, sometimes frantic movements.

Let me add that B&B scared me at times :rofl:

.

tdnuva · Sep 7, 2005

Piel said:
Let me add that B&B scared me at times .

Maybe in some cases our taste meets :laugh:

JonnyCoop · Sep 7, 2005

Piel said:
Let me add that B&B scared me at times .

They were a BIT MUCH on occasion, weren't they? :biggrin:

But I always enjoyed their sense of drama; I'd rather have "overly dramatic" than "overly perky" personally. Unless it descends into complete and total ICE DRAMA, which is the only term I can use to describe the "Carmen" free dance of Krylova & Ovsiannakov in Nagano. I seriously thought someone had dropped some LSD into my drink; I had no idea WHAT on earth I was supposed to be watching there. A major disappointment for a couple who had been so brilliant with their terrific "Masquerade Waltz" of the previous season.

heyang · Sep 8, 2005

I think there is some cultural bias. I generally prefer light & fun and/or very ballroom style ice dance. I am not a fan of overacted (IMO) drama.

I've also enjoyed Bourne & Kratzz (before they went dramatic), Gorsha & Sur, Punsalen and Swallow (more on the pro side), Lang and Tchern..... and Belbin/Agosto. Notice, that none of these teams have a habit of grimacing a lot.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 9, 2005

Spirit said:
At the risk of getting off topic, I'm curious: do you think that the top three teams at 2005 Worlds (Navka / Kostomarov, Belbin / Agosto, Grushina / Goncharov) are people who express with their entire body? If there was a Torvill-and-Dean scale of 1-10, where would today's current top teams rate on it?

I guess I'm just wondering how far up the totem pole you think the Ex-Lax problem exists.

There is really nothing wrong with facial expressions if one understands what the team is all about. What is not so good is that the body language is not tied in with that facial expression.

IMO, it's body language that is missing in most of figure skating. The skaters are just not really feeling the music and try to hide it with dumb facial expressions.

Joe

anniemg · Sep 9, 2005

I think that facial expression should be there to compliment the 'body expression'. Both are needed, if one thing lacks something doesn't seem right. I'd love it if Denkova for example was a bit more expressive. But I still love the Bulgarians for their style

nuge · Sep 9, 2005

anniemg said:
I think that facial expression should be there to compliment the 'body expression'. Both are needed, if one thing lacks something doesn't seem right. I'd love it if Denkova for example was a bit more expressive. But I still love the Bulgarians for their style

I agree it would be great if they were more expressive ' but I still love them .They are an exciting couple certainly not boring.
I 've always enjoyed more dramatic dancers eg K/P A/P G/P L/A etc.I liked B/K more in their last year when they changed to a more dramatic style with their Adagio FD.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 9, 2005

anniemg said:
I think that facial expression should be there to compliment the 'body expression'. Both are needed, if one thing lacks something doesn't seem right. I'd love it if Denkova for example was a bit more expressive. But I still love the Bulgarians for their style

There will be no facial expression complimenting the body expression without the skaters feeling the music. I see that as the problem. They are skating from the neck up and not synchronizing their body muscles to the music. It appears to many that they have passion (in the face). Yeah, some people are easily fooled with grimacing.

I see Denkova as quite an expressive skater. She has a joy in skating.

Joe

Mathman · Sep 9, 2005

I will have to run and hide after this post, but I didn't like the Red Hat program. I kept thinking, what will they do next, see how many plates they can keep twirling on poles while they skate?

But at least they could get through the performance without dropping the hat. Unlike Ilia Kulik and Kurt Browning, when they skated to Chris Dean "hat" programs.

MM

heyang · Sep 9, 2005

When T&D toured with SOI, they re-vamped that hat number for the final cast. They had a pool - whoever dropped that hat had to put $2 into a pool. I don't remember how the money was used - cast party or donation to sponsor charity.

tdnuva · Sep 10, 2005

Mathman said:
I will have to run and hide after this post, but I didn't like the Red Hat program. I kept thinking, what will they do next, see how many plates they can keep twirling on poles while they skate?

But at least they could get through the performance without dropping the hat. Unlike Ilia Kulik and Kurt Browning, when they skated to Chris Dean "hat" programs.

MM

No need to hide. I also have other favorites. This routine is understandable when you imagine they did many big parts of the show in their tours. Something lightheearted was needed there, too, after all.

To clarify - the routine T&D did since 1987 was called Hat trick. Then in the SOI 96/97 they only took the hat idea for a big ensemble routine called the Red hat. The theme was much expanded. In Hat trick T&D tried to snatch the hat from each other. In Red hat, Kurt Browning discovers the Red hat and wants to keep it as his own while all others try to get it. And in this case no-one has it in the end

Red hat is divided into several parts and Kurt has one part which is mostly a solo, but during SOI including some interaction with the other skaters. He used the routine though once or twice before the tour at some pro comps. Where his performances were less than stellar due to the difficulties with the hat AND boot problems. If you want a good version of the Red hat - try the CSOI 97 broadcast. Awesome. And the best performance of Hat trick (imho) was the World team challenge 1996 where T&D used the routine as artistic program. Maximum points.

gkelly · Sep 11, 2005

Mathman said:
But at least they could get through the performance without dropping the hat. Unlike Ilia Kulik and Kurt Browning, when they skated to Chris Dean "hat" programs.

And Paul Duchesnay. (1989 Worlds OD)

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 11, 2005

With due respect to Dean, I think we should give a nod to Bob Fosse for making a thing out of wearing a hat.

Joe

Torvill/Dean's programs

Spirit

Piel

On Edge

tdnuva

Spirit

Piel

On Edge

tdnuva

anniemg

Piel

On Edge

tdnuva

JonnyCoop

heyang

Joesitz (RIP)

anniemg

nuge

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

heyang

tdnuva

gkelly

Joesitz (RIP)

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