CoP Scores at 9! Is that same as 6.0
- Thread starter Joesitz (RIP)
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Here are the official criteria for “Performance/Execution”:
*Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement.
In all skating disciplines each skater must be physically committed, sincere in emotion, and equal in comprehension of the music and in execution of all movement
*Carriage.
Carriage is a trained inner strength of the body that makes possible ease of movement from the center of the body. Alignment is the fluid change from one movement to the next.
*Style and individuality/personality
Style is the distinctive use of line and movement as inspired by the music.
Individuality/personality is a combination of personal and artistic preferences that a skater/pair/couple brings to the concept, manner, and content of the program.
*Variety and contrast.
Varied use of tempo, rhythm, force, size, level, movement shapes, angles, and body parts as well as the use of contrast.
*Projection.
The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience.
May the Force be with them!
But I have to give Nicole Bobek the nod for "varied use of body parts."
MM
*Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement.
In all skating disciplines each skater must be physically committed, sincere in emotion, and equal in comprehension of the music and in execution of all movement
*Carriage.
Carriage is a trained inner strength of the body that makes possible ease of movement from the center of the body. Alignment is the fluid change from one movement to the next.
*Style and individuality/personality
Style is the distinctive use of line and movement as inspired by the music.
Individuality/personality is a combination of personal and artistic preferences that a skater/pair/couple brings to the concept, manner, and content of the program.
*Variety and contrast.
Varied use of tempo, rhythm, force, size, level, movement shapes, angles, and body parts as well as the use of contrast.
*Projection.
The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience.
May the Force be with them!
But I have to give Nicole Bobek the nod for "varied use of body parts."
MM
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
....I'm not so sure I want to be part of that audience....sounds too much like a nuclear meltdown! I don't have a problem with the criteria, either....but it sounds just as general as the old system in this department.
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
Mathman said:
I have no problem with these rules. FS is a subjective sport- it's sport and art together. There are other disciplines (sports and non-sports) that have some subjectivity, and I am OK with it. Everything does not have to be robotic, or with just one possible answer.
I do believe some of the hostility is coming from the fact that Russians have won more times than others.
Vash
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I agree.Vash01 said:
Still, it's easy to make fun of a judging system in which the winner is determined by invisible qualities. That invisible outside take-off edge on my triple Lutz ought to be worth a good +2 on GOE, not to mention the invisible connecting steps that I did leading up to it.
MM
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Mathman said:
The qualities are well taken but they should be a given - not scored.
Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement All this from a teenager who hasn't much knowledge about commeraderie, scholastics, philosophy.
I can just hear a judge saying that Kimmie has no friends outside skating; her misunderstanding of the Pythagorian Theorem, and her inability to fathom the emotional void in having a private tutor were the main reasons for so many deductions in her scores. At 16 a girl should be aware of the meaning of life and show it in her program or get another choreographer to show her how to fake it.
Joe
Vash01 said:
This could be the case but I would also add that it could be said the same for Kwan who has won more times than others as well.
Piel said:
Ain't that the truth.
gkelly said:
Michelle's appeal isn't ONLY confined to the N.American continent and if I hear one more person say otherwise, I'm gonna scream. As mentioned already of course by chuckm, Dortmund would go against your point but also Lausanne and Nice as well and probably others not mentioned. However, I do agree with your last point that if she is healthy and does do her best, she could get 8s and 9s.
As for the invisible bond?????
How ludicious can the ISU be? So help me if a scandal occurs in Turin *knock on wood* I'm gonna be laughing when it blows in the ISU's face.
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gkelly said:
Up to this point we have not seen Kwan skate yet this season, so fans can only spectulate that she will be able to get 8s and maybe 9s. But with Irina it's a different story, she has skated and we know for sure that she can get those scores and probably better scores. At this point, with regards to Kwan, we don't even know what her music is or what she is poing to be doing in her programs. It's only wishful thinking for Kwan fans up to this point that she will get those 8s and 9s.
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This was the second post after Joe's yet most people--the exceptions know who they areScreech said:
--are focusing on how this one criterion out of five for Performance/Execution will ensure that the Russians will get all the OGM medals.Yet Chuckm tells us:
Assuming both Screech and Chuckm are correct, then IMO the COP is doing exactly what it was intended to do; that is, allow some judges to give high scores to skaters they think are deserving in areas that are impossible to quantify. Previously, "some posters" complained that the COP would not reward a skater such as Michelle for what she does best, one of which being her connection with the audience. Well, here it is.
Looking at the top six LP finishers at the '05 Worlds in Dortmund, Irina received an average P/E score of 8.43 from all 11 judges, with the two highs being 9.00 and 9.00 and the two lows being 8.25 and 8.00, all of which would have been thrown out, along with two random P/E scores.
Sasha received an average P/E score of 7.50 from all 11 judges, with the two highs being 8.25 and 8.00 and the two lows being 7.25 and 7.50, all of which would have been thrown out, along with two random P/E scores.
Michelle received an average Performance/Execution score of 7.39 with the two highs being 7.75 and the two lows being 6.25 and 6.50, all of which would have been thrown out, along with two random P/E scores.
The next three skaters in terms of average P/E scores were:
Kostner 7.43
Suguri 7.36
Poykio/Ando tied at 6.79
I realize the Russians won three out of the four gold medals, but I can't argue Totmianina/Marinin; can't argue Slutskaya; and at least I can't argue N/K, but I realize in ice dance people tend to argue outcomes more often than other disciplines unless it's an absolute kill, but then ice dancing is the most difficult discipline to quantify. Then we have Lambiel of Switzerland and I don't know whose "bloc" he comes under.
Speaking of blocs, how about the North American/Asian bloc?
It's one thing to say who got the highest component score in any of the categories, but it's quite another to own up to the fact that the two highest and two lowest component scores get THROWN OUT. They don't go into the average that counts towards the placements. It's as if they don't even exist. The highs and lows are the truly invisible scores. They don't count.
As for the wording for the "Projection" element of Performance/Execution, again, just 1/5th of the P/E category: "The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience," I have absolutely no problem with it. If such wording were not included, people would be complaining, "But what about the skater who bonds with the audience? Who radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection the audience? THAT'S why I watch and love figure skating!"
I think the arguments about the wording of the "Projection" element of the P/E component is much ado about 1/5th of a component out of five total components. Mathman, how much is that out of the total component scores, assuming each element of a component is judged equally?
Rgirl
PS Hey, Screech. Say hi to Stan, Kyle, and Cartman for me.
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Mathman said:
Now, Piel. You know Martha would never do anything so crass as to "fire" someone. She would just tell Mathman, "It's time for you to go," and then write him a pleasant note with criticisms between the lines.Piel said:Martha will fire you for that
<-- Martha smile.Rgirl smile
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
What's all this hullaballoo about the invisible connection? (I didn't click on this thread at first because it sounded boring. Shows what I know.)
People, people, people....it's quite simple. Simmer down. Don't have a cow, and untwist your undergarments.
Here is how judges will view the invisible connection with the audience:
See? This has already been field tested by the ISU.
So be at peace, grasshoppers. There's nothing wrong with this picture.
I repeat: There is nothing...
...wrong...
....with this...
...picture.
Love,
Ottavio Cinquanta
People, people, people....it's quite simple. Simmer down. Don't have a cow, and untwist your undergarments.
Here is how judges will view the invisible connection with the audience:
See? This has already been field tested by the ISU.
So be at peace, grasshoppers. There's nothing wrong with this picture.
I repeat: There is nothing...
...wrong...
....with this...
...picture.
Love,
Ottavio Cinquanta
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
.....loving the post and the visual representations, Spirit!
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Rgirl - You are joking. I can just imagine the bloc blocking out Miki and Joannie in favor of Sasha. or blocking out Daisake and Li in favor of Johnny. Where oh where are the Taiwanese on this issue.:scratch:Rgirl said:
Oh dear, if I only knew which 4 were thrown out:banging:[/QUOTE]
Mme Curie was like that, too.
I guess a standing ovation will clear up this radiating crowd for Carolina.'s one fifth of the score.
Joe
Rgirl said:
I meant the North American and Asian judges working together as a bloc the way the Russians and Eastern European judges are said to do. Thus the NA/Asian bloc could conceivably, if you believe they can work in the NJS, block out a Russian or Eastern European skater or team.Joesitz said:
Oh, now you're pulling my leg.Joesitz said:
Seriously, the only thing in terms of scores we can't tell is which random scores are thrown out, which could make the difference in a close contest. Then, of course, there's that little question of which scores belong to which judges--Speedy's favorite "deal." (Can we get a barfing emoticon, please?)
Assuming each component category is defined by five elements (just to make it easier for me to try to calculate), if there are 11 judges, each element is 1/275th of what goes into the total component scores, which, after the two high, two low, and two random are thrown out, leaving the scores of five judges, becomes 1/25th of what goes into the component scores that go into determining placement.Joesitz said:Mme Curie was like that, too.
Of course that's not counting the 13 technical elements (for ladies) in the LP evaluated by the 11 judges, which gets us 143 different scores before the highs, lows, and randoms are thrown out. And here I'll leave it to Mathman to figure out the final contribution in the final scheme of the five-judge COP panel as to what percentage the skater's "invisible connection" to the audience ends up as--if any of us still care.
Rgirl
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Now in all seriousness, bloc judging can only be of value for a renowned top skater who is competing against another renowned top skater and the pending results appear to be close. e.g.:Rgirl said:
Sasha v. Irina. Do you really think Shizuka's homeland is going to jump on Sasha's bandwagon to satisfy the requirements of the N.A./Asian bloc? If it were Shizuka v. Irina, I am quite sure that the Americans or Canadians would probably be quite honest in their decision. (No Joannie; No Sasha involved) However, there is always cultural bias and E.Europeans have close ties in that area. I might add, that there may be personal antagonisms between certain judges, but that we don't know unless someone speaks out.
Joe
