Ladies SP from TV - COC | Golden Skate

Ladies SP from TV - COC

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Joesitz said:
What did you think?

Joe

Even though the TV picture is clearer than the internet feeds, my thoughts didn't change.

Irina - Wow. This SP already seems in top form.
Mao - Wow for a young up and coming talent. Will be interesting to see her again at TEB. IMO she is not yet on par presentation wise with some of the veterans, but she is doing extremely (!!) for her age and situation - Sr. GP debut.
Shiz - :( I hope she can bring this program along to a higher level as the season progresses. I LOVE to see her when she is ON.

I've commented elsewhere on these before, so I'll stick to the top 3 here.
 

gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
I think Irina's athleticism and her unitard would make Tomaso de Celano turn in his grave shouting bravo!!! She won hands down. Musically, it is boring, how many Dies Irae repeats can her choreographer feed into those 2 minutes.

Mao is awesome, her Carmen is one of the best in recent years. She too is extremely athletic, just wait for her to gain more power.

Arakawa deserved to be third. I am grateful to TT for choosing variation #18 and not variation # 7, 10 or 22 from the rhapsody, therefore sparing me from listening any further abuse of Celano's Dies Irae.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
What Irina has in addition to a packed program is her style of skating which has changed over the years from dead serious to a joie de patinage. This is what gave Tara the gold medal in 98.:)

We've already seen the 2010 Oly Champ - Mao Asada:thumbsup:

If Shizuka could just get a bit of pizzaz, she could be competitive for the gold.

Why can't Yan Liu get higher scores. :love: Is lyrical skating gone forever?

I'm getting used to Elena L's entrance into the lutz and I like it.:cool:


Joe
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Joesitz said:
I'm getting used to Elena L's entrance into the lutz and I like it.:cool:


Joe

I think Elena deserves to have that lutz entrance official named after her.... :)

I had a hard time getting past the shrieky chirping birds at the start of the program. I knew to "get read for it" for the TV broadcast, and I think they might have done some sound editing or something. But when I didn't know to expect it, and it was the raw feed over the internet, OH MY!!!! Made my ears hurt and sadly, I think that initial reaction may have ruined this program for me forever.
 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Irina had lots of energy and her jumps were so on. But that program choreographicaly and muscally was so boring. I still think she's much more of an athlete than an artist. She just doesn't feel it. But you really can't argue with the elements.
Mao has unbelievable ease in everything she does. But her presentation is just "too light" for my taste and I didn't really like the cutesey things she's doing in her program. An amazing skater nevertheless.
 

equestrianguy

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Yes, we have always known that Irina is more of the athelete than an artist.. but that short program was on fire! I haven't seen her LP yet, but if she keeps up steam like like till the Oly..I believe she will have the gold medal.. and if she does it will be well deserved..
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
shine said:
Irina had lots of energy and her jumps were so on. But that program choreographicaly and muscally was so boring. I still think she's much more of an athlete than an artist. She just doesn't feel it. But you really can't argue with the elements.
Mao has unbelievable ease in everything she does. But her presentation is just "too light" for my taste and I didn't really like the cutesey things she's doing in her program. An amazing skater nevertheless.
While Irina's SP is not the best choreography I've ever seen for an SP, it is close to being the best performed SP I've ever seen. If she turns her combo into a 3L/2lo or 3L/3t and skates everything else as well as she did here, then I'd probably crown it as best performed SP I'd ever seen, unless somebody else outdoes her this year.

Ironically, the best choreography I've ever seen for an SP was also for Irina at the '98 Olympics, "Piano Waltz" choreographed, IIRC, by Peter Oppregard. It suited her stylistically so well, too. But she totally bombed it. That was during the "I grew five inches and gained 20 lbs. in one year. Skating, BLUK!" phase Irina went through. But the choreography was brilliant. Like Chen Lu's "Take Five" SP was brilliant but the performance was not.

As for all the flutter about "They've already decided Irina is going to win the OGM! Oh, noooooo!" Okay, even I believed you guys and did not check for myself that Irina's SP score was some statospheric number; "the highest in the history of skating" said Mathman (and I'll never let you forget it); higher even than the men, someone said. So poo on me for not checking. Irina's SP score is second to Sasha Cohen's SP score of 71.12 at Skate Canada '03, which I realize doesn't really count because she earned it before the ISU came down on the judges for the high PCS scores. OTOH, there were only 3 levels to spins, FW, and spirals in '03 instead of the 4 levels we have now. So choose your quibbles.

I also saw Irina's LP online and though it's difficult to tell on my 56k dial-up, her LP didn't seem to have the fuel injection of Moscow Worlds, which I'm glad it didn't. IMO, Irina's big albatross is that she comes out all fireworks at the beginning of the season and gradually wears herself down. Prior to being diagnosed with the vasculitis, that could have played a role in her poor endurance over the season. Or else maybe she really did blow all her gaskets before the '02 Olympics and many Worlds. I hope Irina keeps the lid on while still showing her stuff--I mean, it's not like she's not used to big-time competition--but not tearing herself up either physically or mentally for the Olympics and Worlds.


Mao Asada.
Interviewer: "Well, Mean Ol' Rgirl! How could you NOT like a beautiful, precocious 15-year-old who can skate like heck?":)
Mean Ol' Rgirl: "She's beautiful and has excellent skating skills for any age. And even though I too find her 'light,' this is not a criticism, just my preference for more powerful, deep-into-the-ice skaters. What I don't like is her cloying persona while performing. Everything is done with a 'wink and a wiggle,' which to me is like a comedian ending every joke with a 'Get it! Get it!.'"
Interviewer: "Okay, Mean Ol' Rgirl! You certainly live up to the 'MEAN' in your name, ha ha! We'll be taking you out to be shot now, on camera! Wanna blindfold? Any last words?":)
MOR: "I think Mao Asada will do extremely well in figure skating and will probably upset Sasha Cohen's hopes for a World Champi..mmh!...pff!!!...MMM!!!!"
Interviewer: "Thank you, Mean Ol' Rgirl. BANG! I'm sure we'll all *cough*miss*cough* your opinions about skaters in years to come. Are we still on? Is the b**** dead yet? Gimme that cigarette. Yeah, I know. But at $8 bucks a pack, you think I'm gonna offer one to a goner?"

Okay, seriously. I won't say, "Great for her senior debut at 15!" because nerves put some athletes in their senior-debut-at-15 zone and kicks others out of theirs. I won't mention any names, but there are enough skaters who had great senior debuts or seasons and that was all to form a baseball league. I think there will be a lot more "it" from Asada and personally I look forward to her losing the cutesy approach and maturing into a sophisticated 19-year-old.;)

I agree with Shine that her style is light for my taste, but that doesn't prevent me from appreciating her technical and "component" skills (might as well use the lingo). The tough thing about evaluating someone so small and young is the same problem there was with Cohen at 15. You don't know how much is due to being a tiny, "bendy" girl at 15 and how much will hold up once she grows taller and heavier and, more importantly, the growth plates stiffen into cartilage and bone, the latter making injury more likely, not to mention just skating at more events for more years.

What I wonder most about Asada, who I'm sure I would grow to like in any case, has much more to do with the Japanese Skating Federation than Mao herself. Every year since the last Olympics, there has been the steady beat of prediction: "The Japanese ladies will sweep in '06!" Fumie has won two World bronze and Shizuka the World Title in '04, which is nothing to sneeze at. But even as much as I LOVE Shizza, I have to admit it was a funky win. Not that she didn't skate brilliantly and completely deserved the title, but in '05 she dropped to 11th at Worlds and overall, except for '04 Worlds, she has not skated like a World Champion before or since. (Great time to skate like a champ, though!)

So now Fumie is stymied by a groin injury after changing from a Russian to a Japanese coach before an Olympic season (wha?). Onda shows nothing today of the espirit de glacee she had a few years ago. And even though I've heard people say Shizuka has been skating all summer with joy back in her skating, I've seen her in three events now and haven't seen anything close to World Champion form or joy. I do not expect Shizza to be doing 3/3/2s at this time of year, but even in '03 when Shizza was coming in 2nd at her GP events, she looked stronger.

So my question is, "Why didn't these incredibly beautiful and promising Japanese skaters make more of an impact?" A few years ago ABC did a piece on the changes the Japanese Federation had made to get their ladies back into world class form. Maybe it's a case of learning from the mistakes of the first try for the next set of changes. In any case, I hope they are changes Mao Asado benefits from because she certainly has the technique and form to go far.

Mean Ol' Rgirl, R..I.P.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Rgirl - I love your 'wink and a wiggle' remark and I agree with your description. She's young. However, that wink and wiggle got Tara a gold medal, imo.

Anyone: Does she have another GP? If so, I think she'll be in the Final.

Joe
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Joesitz said:
Rgirl - I love your 'wink and a wiggle' remark and I agree with your description. She's young. However, that wink and wiggle got Tara a gold medal, imo.

Anyone: Does she have another GP? If so, I think she'll be in the Final.

Joe

Mao is scheduled to compete at TEB this coming weekend. It will be interesting to see her and Kimmie in the same comp - first time since Jr. World's last season.

R-Girl - the "youngster" I'm waiting for is Yu-Na Kim. From what little I've seen (internet only - no TV) I like her style a lot better than Mao's (I think it's more mature than Mao's at this stage). But of course lots will change for these young ladies in the coming years. Yu-Na is heading into the JGP final (Thanksgiving weekend) with a commanding lead. I hope somebody somewhere is "covering" it so we get to see some performances via the skating video site.

DG
 

Linny

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Young skating young

While, yes, the 'wink and wiggle' is a very apt comment, hafta say that I much prefer a youngster skating light than a youngster pretending to be a heavyweight by slapping a bunch of makeup on and trying to emote.
Linny
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Rgirl said:
Okay, even I believed you guys and did not check for myself that Irina's SP score was some stratospheric number; "the highest in the history of skating" said Mathman (and I'll never let you forget it); higher even than the men, someone said....So choose your quibbles.
Quibbles? I'll show ya' quibbles!

#1. OK, Irina's stratospheric score is the highest in the modern history of skating.

#2. Better than the men? If Irina had skated in the men's division she would have won the bronze in the SP competition at Cup of China:

Griazev 71.00
Li 70.25
Slute 70.22
Lambiel 70.20
Sandhu 65.10.

Eliminate the 20% "woman's penalty" in the PCS, and Irina wins the gold with 78.15 points.

(The ladies' PCSs are "factored" by .8. To see what Irina would have got if she had skated in pants -- wait, she did :) -- multiply the PCS by 1.25 and add it on to the TES.)

Still not impressed? That SP performance would have put her in the final group to skate at Worlds:

Lambiel 80.28
Joubert 79.66
Slutskaya 78.15
Buttle 77.39
Lysacek 73.42
Plushenko 73.28

If only she had a quad! Despite her desicive victory over Evgeni, we have to take into account that he was injured. As it is, in the men's division I'm afraid Irina will be on the bubble for a podium placement at Torino, in the same plight as Buttle, Weir and Lysacek.

That having been said...

What is the argument about? We are all agreed -- friends of Irina and foes alike -- that this was the most outstanding short program performance in the (modern :) ) history of skating. Why shouldn't she get scores that match?

Mathman
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Rgirl said:
Ironically, the best choreography I've ever seen for an SP was also for Irina at the '98 Olympics, "Piano Waltz" choreographed, IIRC, by Peter Oppregard. It suited her stylistically so well, too. But she totally bombed it.
Does anyone know what the intent of the CoP score for "choreography" is in cases like this? Peter Oppegard deserves a prize for choreography, but does Irina deserve high marks in this program component?

Great choreography, stinko execution. Should she get 4.25 in "perfomance/execution" and 9.0 in "choreography"?

MM
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Composition/Choreography Criteria:

* Purpose (idea, concept, vision)
* Proportion (equal weight of pats)
* Unity (purposeful threading)
* Utilization of personal and public space
* Pattern and ice coverage
* Phrasing and form (movvements and parts stuctured to match the phasing of the music)
* Originality of purpose, movement and design

Performance/Execution Criteria:
* Physical, emotional, and intellectual involvement
* Carriage
* Style and individuality/personality
* Clarity of movement
* Variety and contrast
* Projection

Slutskaya at the 98 Olympics? I don't remember her "totally bombing" her short program. She doubled the lutz in the combination, probably had less energy throughout than at her best, and her carriage and body line were definite weaknesses then, compared to today or to some of her competitors then. But I thought she did pretty well with individuality/personality, clarity of movement, variety and contrast, and projection.
 
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chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Shizuka didn't finish 11th at 2005 Worlds---that was Joannie Rochette.

Shizuka was 9th--a big drop, and even lower than the 8th she finished in 2003. But if she went from 8th to 1st, she could recoup and go back up this year.

Back in 2004, the one expected to make the biggest splash was Miki Ando. She won 2004 Junior Worlds and finished 4th at 2004 Worlds, almost pushing Kwan off the podium.

But last year, Miki seemed to have lost her focus. Shizuka stole Miki's thunder in 2004, but Miki wasn't able to distinguish herself in her first season on the GP, even while Shizuka herself seemed to be going through a post-championship letdown. Maybe that's why the JF put Mao in the GP a season before she was eligible for ISU championships, so she could make adjustments to Seniors before the pressure was on to deliver results.
 
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Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
chuckm said:
Shizuka didn't finish 11th at 2005 Worlds---that was Joannie Rochette.

Shizuka was 9th--a big drop, and even lower than the 8th she finished in 2003. But if she went from 8th to 1st, she could recoup and go back up this year.

Back in 2004, the one expected to make the biggest splash was Miki Ando. She won 2004 Junior Worlds and finished 4th at 2004 Worlds, almost pushing Kwan off the podium.

But last year, Miki seemed to have lost her focus. Shizuka stole Miki's thunder in 2004, but Miki wasn't able to distinguish herself in her first season on the GP, even while Shizuka herself seemed to be going through a post-championship letdown. Maybe that's why the JF put Mao in the GP a season before she was eligible for ISU championships, so she could make adjustments to Seniors before the pressure was on to deliver results.

This all makes perfect sense in terms of why the JF may have decided to move Mao up to seniors this year, even though she is not Oly eligible. A good longer term plan, if that is indeed the plan. I can't imagine Shiz and Fumie staying in the game after this season (but of course that's up to them!!) And certainly at this point in time, Mao can absolutely hold her own among the "big girls."

This decision to move Mao to Seniors created an interesting opportunity for Yu-Na Kim, who thus far appears to be cleaning up in the JGP. Assuming she is able to keep that up through Jr. World's, what a nice confidence builder for her prior to her Sr. debut next season (I'm assuming).

I'm also really looking forward to seeing Miki at COR and NHK. I know there were mixed reactions to her FP at the Japan Invitational. I personally liked the "new look" but it might be too "soft" of music....I don't know other than I liked it. It will be interesting to see how the program has evolved during the long gap between the JI and COR. What did you think (assuming you saw it over the net or wherever)?

I love the drama of the Oly season, but I am equally looking forward to the start of the next 4 year cycle!!

DG
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Mathman said:
What is the argument about? We are all agreed -- friends of Irina and foes alike -- that this was the most outstanding short program performance in the (modern :) ) history of skating. Why shouldn't she get scores that match?
Mathman
Not quite 'ALL'. I'm still going with Kwan's East of Eden. I still like the classic spiral.

Joe
 

gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Mao has unbelievable ease in everything she does. But her presentation is just "too light" for my taste and I didn't really like the cutesey things she's doing in her program. An amazing skater nevertheless.

I like her light presentation, it seems like she can almost take flight, and there is nothing to weigh her down. I don't mind the cutesey, things she is doing. I think Mao has amazing musicality for her age. I think she interprets Carmen well. I agree with one of the moderators here who advocated that skaters should perform the essence of the opera, and not try to tell the story of the opera in four mins. Carmen is an archetye of a seductress. Kat Witt seduces with her winks and wiggles that oozes with sexual powers. Kat Witt's Carmen seduces and gets her way with big time flirt. I think Mao seduces and gets her way with cute wink, wiggles that oozes with wit, like e.g. Despina from Cosi fan tutte. I believe Despina was just a teenager like Mao. IMO 15 y/o Mao's Carmen is more interesting, compare to e.g the boring interpretation from a 17 y/oCohen.

I don't think 15 year old Mao is overdosing us on her cuteness, since she looks younger than 15, IMO she can still get away with it. Actually Irina's LP from 96 with those light blue feather on her costume was so sweet that I was afraid someone may go into a diabetic coma just by watching it. And a 16 year old Irina who weighed at least 20 lbs more than Mao was pushing it for playing the cute and sweetness.

It is quite a feat for Mao to beat a world champion on her first senior event. I hope she learns to control her nerves and places on top at worlds 07, in Japan
 
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Joined
Aug 3, 2003
gezando said:
I like her light presentation, it seems like she can almost take flight, and there is nothing to weigh her down. I don't mind the cutesey, things she is doing. I think Mao has amazing musicality for her age. I think she interprets Carmen well. Since the philosophy of GS is that skaters should skate to the essence of the music, not the story of the opera. Carmen is an archetye of a seductress. Kat Witt seduces with her winks and wiggles that oozes with sexual powers. Kat Witt's Carmen seduces and gets her way with big time flirt. I think Mao seduces and gets her way with cute wink, wiggles that oozes with wit, like e.g. Despina from Cosi fan tutte. I believe Despina was just a teenager like Mao. IMO 15 y/o Mao's Carmen is more interesting, compare to e.g the boring interpretation from a 17 y/oCohen.

I don't think 15 year old Mao is overdosing us on her cuteness, since she looks younger than 15, IMO she can still get away with it. Actually Irina's LP from 96 with those light blue feather on her costume was so sweet that I was afraid someone may go into a diabetic coma just by watching it. And a 16 year old Irina who weighed at least 20 lbs more than Mao was pushing it for playing the cute and sweetness.

It is quite a feat for Mao to beat a world champion on her first senior event. I hope she learns to control her nerves and places on top at worlds 07, in Japan
"Since the philosophy of GS is that skaters should skate to the essence of the music, not the story of the opera." Speak for yourself! If there's a "philosophy of GS" other than the rules set down by the administrator and mods, I want nooooo part of it. I'll decide for myself, thanks.:)

But as long as you brought it up, no I don't want the story of the opera in four minutes, but I do want some correlation between the skater and the "character" or "feel" of the opera. Witt was a mature sexual woman when she did "Carmen" and sexuality became part of her professional skating persona. Worked for me in '88. Debi Thomas was also a mature sexual woman in '88. She took a non-character driven athletic approach. Although it's difficult to speculate, even if Thomas had skated well, I think I would have preferred some essence of the character of "Carmen" in her skating. At any rate, at least they were matched in terms of age and "Carmen" as a subject also reflected their ages. I wouldn't know about experience.:love:

And yes, Gez, [EDIT] certain ones of us whom I have not asked if I may use their names [EDIT] have known for a long time that for you it wasn't, "The Olys are coming," to quote Joe, but that it was "Asada is coming!" :laugh: Of course you're entitled to your opinion, negative or positive. And I know more than a few of us have noticed, appreciatively so and to your credit, the restraint you've shown over the past couple of months from the constant Sasha bashing--unless the issue is Sasha, then IMO, have at her, if that's what floats your boat. Since Asada skated to "Carmen" I'd say that qualifies talk about anybody who ever skated to it. Now try to relax and I dare ya to go comment on my post in the "COC Ladies LP on TV" thread. IMO, what's bad for Mao's "Carmen" is good for her "Clara.":)

**************
Chuckm--thanks for the correction on Shizuka's placement at '05 Worlds. I dinked one of my faves three places!

***************
Gkelly--You are totally correct about what Irina did in her '98 Olympic SP and that she didn't "totally bomb it" as I said in a fit of bad wording. I'll reword that to "had a flub on her opening combo and didn't skate up to the level of the choreography."

**************
Linny--I agree. Given a choice between 15 yrs old, no make-up/cloying, which is not the same as cute, and gobs of make-up/vamping, I'll take the former. But my preference for 15 is no make-up, and genuine. Think gymnast Shannon Miller at 15 or, IMO, Irina at 16.

******************
Mathman--the question was the point total for Irina's SP and how you said in Post #54, p4 of "Cup of China Ladies SP":

"Irina did not just get the best short program score of this event. She got the highest short program score in the history of figure skating.

"I didn't look this up to see if it is literally true (but I think it is). However, if you look at the Code of Points in detail, Irina's point total is not only higher than anything Michelle, Sasha, Shizuka or anyone else has ever done (I don't count Sasha's string of 197s in the first experimental year of CoP scoring--Rgirl says, "Conveniently for your argument, even though I agree Sasha's '03 GP events were not judged by the same PCS standards the judges are using now. OTOH, the highest spin, FW, or spiral level you could get then was 3.") -- it is higher than anything Michelle, Sasha, Shizuka or anyone else can possibly get, no matter what they do." How do you know? I know, let me look into my crystal ball of what is possible:p and you'll say, "Because the judges will never give any of them anywhere near the PCS scores they gave Irina." Probably so, but that doesn't mean Irina can't pop a jump or fall.

"Comparing Irina's score to the men from last years Worlds, Irina beat Takahashi, Griazev, Weir, Sandhu, Van der Perren and Goebel (beautiful skaters, one and all)." Rgirl says, "Yes, all beautiful and inconsistent male skaters, with the possible exception of Weir, who is consistent when healthy, but does not have a quad.

So just what is the question? It seems to me to be why certain people are having a cow over Irina's COC SP score. Well, why shouldn't the reigning World Champion who has been on the World podium every year except during her "dark" phase in the late '90s and in '03 due to illness, has an Olympic silver medal, and has had two years to study, compete in, and incorporate the COP not receive the highest SP score since--and I think this is the correct wording--the ISU made changes to the way the component elements were judged, which began in the '04/05 season. Not "in the history of modern figure skating." When, precisiely, O man of irrefutable numbers, did modern figure skating start?:p

Irina doubled a flip (I think it was) in her LP at COC; we still don't know if her vasculitis and pericarditis may have effects on her overall endurance; and we won't know until the last skater of the ladies free skate skates what irina or anybody else will do or what exact scores they will get. The OGM could be decided by 1/10th of a point. Get excited; go, "Oh, wow!"; say, "Good for Irina!"; say, "Damn that Irina!"; grumble and investigate the judges' scores, but please, if you care to have me around at all, stop having cows. Watching Mathman give birth to a cow via midcow delivery is a beautiful thing if it's your cow. But it just makes me go "OWEE!" to watch.

Speaking of questions, I put this in another thread, but this seems to be where the action is:
During COC ladies LP, Peter Carruthers, while explaining the NJS, said there is "a technical panel and a program components panel." Later on, Susie Wynne referred to "the technical panel." I know separating the tech and PC judges into two panels was discussed last year, but has it been implemented? If so, how so?

Rgirl

Anything that can walk can be too cute.--Anonymous
 
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Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Joesitz said:
Rgirl - I love your 'wink and a wiggle' remark and I agree with your description. She's young. However, that wink and wiggle got Tara a gold medal, imo.

Anyone: Does she have another GP? If so, I think she'll be in the Final.
Several people agreed with my description, but, oh, sigh! Am I forever to be the lone GSer who gets called out by our Resident Cartman and #1 Rgirl Basher, the Great Gezando? Oh, I do hope so! Considering the source, I like it. Never give up on me, Gez! People love me for it! :rofl:

But I disagree with you, Joe, that the "wink and a wiggle" got Tara the OGM. IMO, what got her the OGM was the 3lo/3lo; skating with good speed, great verve, and energy; having a very well-choreographed program by Sandra Bezic (better than Lori's "Lyra" for a competitive program--again, JMO); a great total package (music, costume, very little make-up) appropriate to her age and demeanor (I'd bet my bottom dollar that the judges had no idea the music from "The Rainbow" was from the film of the DH Lawrence va-va-voom novel The Rainbow--one of the advantages of using non-warhorse music), a relatively weak performance by Michelle (I know, she'd had the toe injury and the cast on until just before Nats); and Tara coming in as the reigning World Champion.

"The Rainbow" doesn't lend itself to "winks and wiggles," not that that ever stops anybody who is determined to w&w, but I just don't think Tara ever did in that program, or as a competitor in general. She winked, wiggled, and a lot more once she got to SOI, but as a competitor, Tara was all business from what I saw.

Now the K&C scream heard 'round the world, that's another story.:laugh:

Rgirl
 
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