Irina Slutskaya will win in Torino

Red Dog said:

Y'all better knock yourselves out. If history is an indication, however, Irina may not quite have that gold medal in her pocket yet. (Although she is basically holding it and trying to run away with it now.)

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I tried so hard to get you to understand that Sasha's foremost competitor was Irina not Kwan months ago. But you continued with the Kwan stagnating, Kwan under greatest pressure etc. Now you are beginning to see the truth that it is Irina who is Sasha's biggest competition, and you are not liking it anymore than if it were Kwan. Sasha has a good shot at the Olys along with Shizuka. Irina has the best shot. Kwan is out injured. If a certain new lady wins the GP Finals, you will more than likely look for faults in her. Alissa may even win the Nats.
That's the way it is in skateland.

Soogar - I know how important it is for you to see Kwan debased but for many many fans, it doesn't gel especially before the 80s. those fans were waiting for a genuine great skater to come along. It was Kwan.

BTW, the golden era of Figure Skating was somewhere in the 30s through the early 50s and it was Sonia Henie who carried that era. There was no skating of any note before her, and if it weren't for Tenley Albright, skating would have died before Henie died.

Joe

I think a lot of people use the phrase "when Kwan retires" to refer to an event in the not-to-distant-future that will signal the end of an era of a certain style of skating. People who became skating fans because they liked seeing the "less is more" school of simple elegance (Fleming; Lynn; Kwan) instead of the "more-and-more Biellmans" will not stay fans, simply because they do not care to watch the programs that are now being performed.

Kwan will be talked about for many decades to come. when other skaters have been forgot, Kwan will still be hot.

Joe

Soogar - I know how important it is for you to see Kwan debased but for many many fans, it doesn't gel especially before the 80s. those fans were waiting for a genuine great skater to come along. It was Kwan.


Joe[/QUOTE]

So what were Brian Boitano and Katarina Witt? Chopped liver?

Joesitz said:

How much interest will there be in figure skating once Michelle leaves the sport? is a more apt question, imo than pro v. eligible.

Joe

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I have been interested in figure skating a long time before Kwan even was born, LOL, and will be watching the sport as eargerly after she has retired. Her presence or non-presence in eligible figure skating does not have any affect to me.

Joesitz said:

Kwan will be talked about for many decades to come. when other skaters have been forgot, Kwan will still be hot.

Joe

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In USA that might apply at least some time, until a new favourite comes, but in the rest of the world, LOL? You see there is plenty of world outside USA....

Do you get Blades on Ice? Check out the picture on page 12.

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I don't subscribe to any skating publications. Got a picture online?

Realistic- as I always say, to each his/her own. My view differs significantly from your view, and neither one IMO is wrong (or right). I'll leave it at that.

But you might be onto a trend that may just be beginning with this new system. It's all about tricks, points, and more tricks and more points.

There is an art element to all sports if you look closely. Some may like that element of sport or emphasize it more, and there's nothing wrong with that. But in the end, it's the athletics that make you good. When it comes to winning a basketball or football game, no one cares HOW you win the game. They just care THAT you win the game. If one wants artistry, there's always ballet, dance, music, etc. Just my humble opinion though.

slutskayafan- I was referring to recent history. But what you just said isn't very encouraging. I'm the type who doesn't usually cheer for the favorite, hence my bias here.

Here's the beef! If Kwan was on top with the new scoring system like she was with the 6.0's, nobody would have any qualms about it. I think that if she was out there skating and ahead of all of the other ladies, I think that everybody would be in their glee about the new scoring system and say that it was the best thing since sliced bread.

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Isn't it grand? BTW, ITA with this.

I tried so hard to get you to understand that Sasha's foremost competitor was Irina not Kwan months ago. But you continued with the Kwan stagnating, Kwan under greatest pressure etc. Now you are beginning to see the truth that it is Irina who is Sasha's biggest competition, and you are not liking it anymore than if it were Kwan. Sasha has a good shot at the Olys along with Shizuka. Irina has the best shot. Kwan is out injured. If a certain new lady wins the GP Finals, you will more than likely look for faults in her. Alissa may even win the Nats.
That's the way it is in skateland.

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Joe- I KNEW THAT. I KNOW very well Irina was Cohen's biggest competitor. But I must ask, what does Kwan have to do with this? That was a totally separate discussion. They're not related.

Lastly, I need to clarify that I don't view things in terms of who "is Sasha's competition". I call it as I see it, so to speak. The bottom line is Irina is EVERYONE's competition. She is Shizuka's competition just as much as she is Sasha's competition.

Cohen and Shiz are OK. They just need to do some more work at home to be able to compete with the OGM, that's all. Also, Cohen will be ANYTHING but an underdog at this OLYs. That is, unless she tanks Nats and places a distant 3rd.

Also- who said I would look for faults in a new lady? IIRC I haven't commented once on Mao Asada (except in scoring discussions). If anything I just said that she would be a formidable competitor if she were able to go to the OLYs.

Jaana said:

I have been interested in figure skating a long time before Kwan even was born, LOL, and will be watching the sport as eargerly after she has retired. Her presence or non-presence in eligible figure skating does not have any affect to me.



In USA that might apply at least some time, until a new favourite comes, but in the rest of the world, LOL? You see there is plenty of world outside USA....

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TA with the above. Though I live in US (and have lived here most of my life), my interest in figure skating was born in Russia where pairs and dance ruled the figure skating scene. I would put my interest in ladies field at the near bottom out of the 4, and I have been following the ladies only for the past 17 years or so. Michelle has nothing to do with my interest in figure skating ! Katarina caught my attention followed by Midori. I can also say that the figure skating boards with uber Michelle fans also do not represent a figure skating fan base in the US. Believe it or not, not everybody thinks of Michele as the queen. Not everybody has the time or desire to visit the boards. Most of my friends (all ethnicities, not just Russian speaking) love figure skating and follow all coverage - but you would never catch them on the net. Guess what?? They watch FS for the sport itself, not because of a single athlete who frankly, has been invisible for the last couple of seasons on teh GP sercuit - and that's where half the season of coverage come from. We only go to SOI, because COI never come to our cities orthey make an appearance every 4 years. Michelle does not skate for SOI and they do just fine without her. But I am sure they will do better if she skates with them following her retirement.

Yana

Yana

nymkfan51 said:

A slight bend at the waist? She nearly did a head banger into the ice.
That was her worst performance of Tosca, IMO. She had ZERO spark or presentation.
Not to worry though ... the gold is hers in Torino ... regardless of whether she is perfect or not. Short of her imitating a zamboni, she's already won.

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just got to agree...it was such a sloppy performance to me, as well...

Doggygirl said:

1) What's a "Faustian bargain?"

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*Ahem* In the medieval legend, Dr. Faustus sold his soul to the devil (in the person of the daemon Mephistopheles) in exchange for worldly power. (In the 16th century play by Christopher Marlowe, this took the form of material prosperity, while in the more profound version by Goerthe it was knowledge that Faust prized above all.)

According to legend, Mephistopheles went by the nickname "Speedy," because he was so quick to seduce his victims with CoP points, all the while reaping their artistic souls.

MM

attyfan said:

I think a lot of people use the phrase "when Kwan retires" to refer to an event in the not-to-distant-future that will signal the end of an era of a certain style of skating. People who became skating fans because they liked seeing the "less is more" school of simple elegance (Fleming; Lynn; Kwan).

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Well stated.

IMHO another factor is this. Interest in figure skating in the U.S. may not need Michelle Kwan, but it needs somebody. Over the years there has been one person who dominates the public consciousness as the "face of figure skating." Dorothy Hamill, Scott Hamilton, Brian Boitano and Kristi Yamaguchi filled that role in turn. Who will be next?

MM

kyla2 said:

MZHENG, interesting that when Irina did poorly at Euros she was taken off the steroids just prior to the competition. I would really hate to think that irina is getting a boost from the steroids, and therefore it is increasing her stamina/energy. That would be an unfair advantage. Typically, steroids make you feel miserable, so it is hard to know. As for skating once Michelle leaves, it will no longer be as interesting or as beautiful. I have always loved figure skating. But when Michelle transformed the sport with Salome, Taj Mahal, Rach and Lyra Angelica she ruined it for me in a way. When you have tasted champagne, it is hard to go back to grape juice. Sasha is the closest to her with a unique style all her own. But I suspect this might be her last year too.

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You have it exactly the opposite of what happened. Irina had been weaned off the steroids by the beginning of last season, and she was skating really well in her GP events and at the Marshall's cheesefest. But a week later, at the GPF, she wasn't skating as well and she had begun to feel ill. The doctors realized the symptoms of her vasculitis had returned, and they put her back on heavy doses of steroids. Prednisone tends to have a negative effect on performance, as it causes water retention, fatigue and weight gain. As a result, Irina didn't skate well at Russian Nationals or at Euros.

She got some rest after Euros and didn't have to travel for Worlds, so with her body readjusted to the medication, she skated well at Worlds.

soogar said:

So what were Brian Boitano and Katarina Witt? Chopped liver?

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Soogar - That was a good era of eligible skating not just for Boitano and Witt, but for their competitors too.

My point was that the Henie era was the golden era. There were newsreels about her, gossip columns about her, skating shows flourished in addition to her own Hollywood Ice Review, and their were several movies with her as a star. No skater has ever repeated that and no skater has lasted as long in the pulbic eye. It was an era we will never see again.

Kwan, however, comes close. She is constantly in the public eye, she's a huge medal winner, and her longevity is probably the most in figure skating and she has not yet lost her elegibility.

I agree, Kwan did not start a renewed 'golden era' but she started an interest in figure skating after the famous Harding/Kerrigan mess which was absolutely was needed for figure skating. She was a breath of fresh air and sportsmanship despite the idiotic attempt to have silly sunday afternoon competitions.

Kwan is undoubtedly not your favorite but neither was Henie everyone's favorite but they draw in the crowds.

Her life has always been 'out of the public eye' except for rabid fans who dig up stories about her. She's been ailing with pain for a number of years now and it looks like that this will be her last hurrah.

Hate the fans, not the skater.

Joe

millie said:

Here's the beef! If Kwan was on top with the new scoring system like she was with the 6.0's, nobody would have any qualms about it. I think that if she was out there skating and ahead of all of the other ladies, I think that everybody would be in their glee about the new scoring system and say that it was the best thing since sliced bread.

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Here MY beef! I don't like the new scoring system. If Kwan had never skated or set foot on the ice in competition, I wouldn't like the new scoring system. I understand it and I don't like it. I think the PCS part of the new scoring system (while it will always be subjective) is misused in part. I don't, as a figure skating fan, enjoy the relegation of the beauty of figure skating to a back burner on a cold stove. And if all that's needed are the "tricks" of figure skating, then it's fine by me. I'll watch some other sport.

RD, you and I'll never agree. I don't think about who wins and who loses. That's not why I watch sports. Yes, I cheer on my favorite teams, but I want to see HOW they play. Sports, regardless of what you may believe, have an innate beauty in them when performed well. Yeah, people get dirty and bloody and all that over stuff, but you can't tell me that it wasn't beautiful to watch Ali dance around the ring. You can't tell me it wasn't beautiful to watch a football soar through the air and land in Rice's hands. Of course, I'm female so I must be watching the wrong sports if all I see is the beauty in certain things.

wvgal57 said:

Actually, Irina never made any errors in her freeskate at Salt Lake City. She had a slight bend at the waist on her 3flip but otherwise her program had no errors. Her short program was absolutely flawless and was placed second to a flawed Kwan.

The 5.9's were not out of line at all, she didn't fall and she didn't underrotate any jumps.

She was actually held down in the freeskate for technical merit.

Edited to Add: I'm not counting anything before the final minute on the ice in Turino. Sarah and Tara both showed that anyone with a truly inspired performance can win.

The Olympics is not a crowning achievement award and in some ways the ones with the most pressure don't seem to fair so well. The ones with less pressure usually win. I'm personally happy to see Irina still out there competing and as I'm not as worried about her leaving her career with a gold Olympic medal as leaving with the satisfaction she is currently obtaining with her skating.

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Irina was VERY slow all through the first half of the program, and she literally stumbled out of the flip. All during the GP, Irina was acting out "Tosca" and showing all sorts of emotion, but at SLC she was flat--no interpretation, no theatrics. She skated so cautiously it made me wonder if that was Irina out there on the ice. SLC was the second-worst performance of "Tosca" she'd done all season (the worst being the GPF which she won with just 4 triples and lots of mistakes).

If Irina had skated "Tosca" the way she did at Worlds 2002 just a month later, she would have deservedly won the OGM. But she didn't, and her subpar performance at SLC was not deserving of an OGM.

realistic51 said:

RD, you and I'll never agree. I don't think about who wins and who loses. That's not why I watch sports. Yes, I cheer on my favorite teams, but I want to see HOW they play. Sports, regardless of what you may believe, have an innate beauty in them when performed well. Yeah, people get dirty and bloody and all that over stuff, but you can't tell me that it wasn't beautiful to watch Ali dance around the ring. You can't tell me it wasn't beautiful to watch a football soar through the air and land in Rice's hands. Of course, I'm female so I must be watching the wrong sports if all I see is the beauty in certain things.

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I suppose you're referring to what I like to call "smooth moves". Yes, certain moves have that "coolness" factor. (I hope you know what I mean, I'm being very general, non-descriptive here.) But in the end, I want to see my team win. Forget the how. On the other hand, the journey can be just as great as the destination. I will admit a close game is much more exciting to watch than a blowout (whether it's by my team or not). But that's getting a little OT...never mind

Red Dog said:

But in the end, I want to see my team win.

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Now that's what I'm talking about, RD. When you're an equal opportunity non-fan of all skaters, how can "your team" win?

MM

Mathman said:

*According to legend, Mephistopheles went by the nickname "Speedy," because he was so quick to seduce his victims with CoP points, all the while reaping their artistic souls.

MM

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Also, I never thought I could get so much "culture" on a FS board!!

Mathman said:

Now that's what I'm talking about, RD. When you're an equal opportunity non-fan of all skaters, how can "your team" win?

MM

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I'm referring to my NBA team, my NFL team, and my MLB team.

Just a slight misunderstanding...

euterpe said:

Irina was VERY slow all through the first half of the program, and she literally stumbled out of the flip. All during the GP, Irina was acting out "Tosca" and showing all sorts of emotion, but at SLC she was flat--no interpretation, no theatrics. She skated so cautiously it made me wonder if that was Irina out there on the ice. SLC was the second-worst performance of "Tosca" she'd done all season (the worst being the GPF which she won with just 4 triples and lots of mistakes).

If Irina had skated "Tosca" the way she did at Worlds 2002 just a month later, she would have deservedly won the OGM. But she didn't, and her subpar performance at SLC was not deserving of an OGM.

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Well skating cautiously does not qualify as an "error". She made NO technical errors such as cheated jumps or falls, she didn't about "bang her head" on the ice either on the 3flip ... under COP she would have received full credit for the jump with -GOE, it was not underrotated nor two footed. Irina had a much more difficult program with bigger and better jumps, better spins and yes better spirals. It's very telling in the quality of Irina's program when you look at the fact that Hughes won by such a teeny-tiny margin and Hughes being credited with two 3/3's.

On the other hand, Kwan skated a true"error filled" program. She two-footed the triple toe and fell on something else, other triples were underrotated. Her spins have never been up to the par of Irina or Sasha and her speed was nothing to right home about. IMO that program didn't deserve to win the bronze medal. Cohen deserved the bronze and Kwan fourth. Kwan's win in the short program was a gift to the hometown girl and so was her bronze.

wvgal57 said:

Cohen deserved the bronze and Kwan fourth. Kwan's win in the short program was a gift to the hometown girl and so was her bronze.

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IMO Sarah, Irina and Kwan were all given the proper marks. OTOH, Cohen should be behind Fumie, Sasha Cohen did not even deserve the 4th place, you have to use a microscope to find an edge in Cohen's program, and she was so SLOWWWWWW, Fumie had much more speed .