Signature historic moves-how would they fare..

under COP? I was thinking about some of my favorite moves from skaters of the past and wondering if they would get plaudits or short shrift in the new system? Toller Cranston had a "arabesque" type spin where his leg was practically wrapped around his head. He also did distinctive "running steps" footwork and the position on his camel was really beautiful. Paul Wylie had great Ina Bauers and Russian splits. Would the Browning or Hamilton footwork pay off for them? Dorothy Hamill's layback is still better to me than most of the current ones we see.

Other than the ubiquitous Bielmans, I am still a bit puzzled as to what is deemed superior or transcendently difficult under the new system. I am suspecting that some of my favorite moves would not fare well. (Ah well, I can enjoy them in impunity since at least some of my favorites are retired!)

I'm not sure about this issue, either. I love all of these moves (and I would guess they are considered MITF). Now, you see many skaters using them as difficult set ups for jumping passes.

I think many of those moves would be considered "transitions", and would possibly bring that mark, and the choreography mark, up a bit. I think the same thing of Klimkin's cantilever, which I love, and I hate to think it really earns him nothing under CoP but bumping the transitions mark.

Kasey said:

I think many of those moves would be considered "transitions", and would possibly bring that mark, and the choreography mark, up a bit. I think the same thing of Klimkin's cantilever, which I love, and I hate to think it really earns him nothing under CoP but bumping the transitions mark.

Click to expand...

He does it very well but it is nothing more than a spread eagle and layback combined. On could see it in every ice show from time immemorial.

Joe

Joesitz said:

He does it very well but it is nothing more than a spread eagle and layback combined. On could see it in every ice show from time immemorial.

Joe

Click to expand...

Oh, I know it's not unique (and I actually liked it better from Doug Mattis, who just about dragged his head on the ground! ) I just like that in the senior eligible category, for some years now, it's something unusual enough that I can't recall another high-profile skater doing it in recent years....but, being American with only learning about skating video downloads in the last year, I know there are a lot of "obscure Euro skaters" I haven't seen.

I'm not sure about how moves of the past might fare today, but my main axe to grind is how limiting some of the requirements can be. For instance, if you have a modern day Cranston who tosses in something new, that hasn't been seen before, how does it get scored? Or WOULD it? Many judges might not know what to make of it. I know the Deuschesneys (sp???) suffered from this even before COP. I know that some of Lucinda Rue's spins get short shrift, because officials can't fairly judge their difficulty.

Having so many mandatory requirements stifles innovation IMO.

Okay, rant off.

Hey, DJ, glad to see you back! :agree:

Mathman

DJStuCrew said:

I'm not sure about how moves of the past might fare today, but my main axe to grind is how limiting some of the requirements can be. For instance, if you have a modern day Cranston who tosses in something new, that hasn't been seen before, how does it get scored? Or WOULD it? Many judges might not know what to make of it. I know the Deuschesneys (sp???) suffered from this even before COP. I know that some of Lucinda Rue's spins get short shrift, because officials can't fairly judge their difficulty.

Having so many mandatory requirements stifles innovation IMO.

Okay, rant off.

Click to expand...

I believe every element in the CoP has been acknowledged, classified and rated. I believe some moves of the past such as the Wally have been designated as footwork, and One Foot Axels as forbidden. The Cop has made figure skating a 'finite' sport.

Innovation seems to me to be one of body position where arms and legs are shown differently than the standard element for single skaters; for Pairs, I believe special credit would be given to a new convoluted lift, and in Dance, extra credit would be given to moves that approximate Pairs.

Sad about The Wally. A triiple would really be something to see.

Joe

Joesitz said:

I believe every element in the CoP has been acknowledged, classified and rated. I believe some moves of the past such as the Wally have been designated as footwork, and One Foot Axels as forbidden.

Click to expand...

One-foot axels are not forbidden, but they count the same as regular single axel (and it would have to be really clear that you landed on the "wrong" foot on purpose and not as a mistake, to get a 0 or positive GOE). So it's not worthwhile for skaters who can do double or triple axels to include a single jump.

Inside axels, like walleys, count as transitions.

The Cop has made figure skating a 'finite' sport.

Click to expand...

In some ways, yes. I think the system should be made more flexible for the freeskate.

Sad about The Wally. A triiple would really be something to see.

Click to expand...

Well, if anyone had already been doing triple walleys, I'm sure it would have made it into the scale of values.

I have, on videos of skating going back over 30 years, seen double walleys and double inside axels once or twice each. Never triples.

Maybe if those doubles were given point values approximately equal to the easier triples, we would see more skaters choosing to learn them.

As for the singles, including one-foot axel and split single jumps and 1.5 jumps, maybe give them point values or maybe not, but specifically rule that they will not block a jump box that could be filled with triples. (I'm sure the reason that that hasn't been done is because they do want popped attempts at doubles or triples that turn into singles to block a box.)

And if jumps performed as the second or third jump in a combination received a bonus, as I think they should, then it would be more attractive to include the one-foot axel - triple salchow combination.

I think the ISU needs to redo the difficulty of all the elements.

And, to test the difficulty, we will have speedy perform all the moves. Easy moves to him are level 1, moderate, level 2, moderately difficult, level three, difficult, level 4, and impossible, level 5.