People trying to oppose Tanith Belbin's U.S. citizenship

heyang · Nov 29, 2005

I don't particularly support nor oppose the 'special' legislation.

For me, a supportive reason is that this legislation corrects a bureaucratic error. As many others have pointed out, Tanith would have had her citizenship by now if she had waited another a couple of months before filing. The only reason that it's obtained media attention is because Tanith is involved - if this were a non-Olympic year, I don't think this would have gotten as much attention.

Also, I have many friends and acquaintances who have struggled with the INS. One of my friends went without seeing her parents for 2 1/2 years because she wanted them to get tourist visas from China to see her home in the US. The INS considered her parents to be high risk to stay in the US; so, they were denied visitation twice - even when only her mother applied. She also started her citizenship process in the hopes that it might be easier as a US citizen to get things done. Right now, my friend finally just went to visit her parents in China, instead. My sister-in-law was also trying to bring one of her brother's and his family to the US - she and my brother hired a lawyer and provided all supporting documents - papers were lost and had to be re-filed - now, 6 1/2 years later, they are still not here and have decided to try to pursue life in Singapore, which is easier to enter than the US.

The reason for my indifference is that there are so many other more urgent matters that require legislation, but how much money gets spent picking out state mottos, too?

I agree that the 'Mitchell's' problem isn't with B&A, but with their competition for the 3rd spot. Tanith is just a bigger target in the media. It certainly their right as citizens to write this letter - just as it was Senator Clinton's right to not follow through on the letter (well, I'm not sure if she voted against, but I doubt this was her sole concern.)

Excidra2001 · Nov 29, 2005

realistic51 said:
I would certainly hope that the majority of figure skating fans at Nationals will NOT be like the ones who would "boo" skaters at an event, sent them nasty emails, etc. That's just outrageous.

B/A have been my favorite ice dance team for awhile. I knew they couldn't go to the Olympics because of her citizenship. I also know that she got lost in the 9/11 shuffle when new rules were instituted AFTER 9/11 and that she probably would have had her citizenship by now. She still has to pass the citizenship test, doesn't she? (I don't think she's taken it yet)

What I don't understand here is the animosity directed towards another set of skaters for the "alleged" actions of their parents? Did anyone see an actual signature or just the typed names on this letter? As I understand it, the signatures were blacked out. Did ESPN provide information that they had compared the signatures to others? I mean, really.

And so what if a parent wants to write to a Senator for assistance? It's legal. At least she didn't get some hired gun to hurt B/A. It's not a slimeball tactic and it's not unfair of anyone to do this. If you're not in agreement with the bill, write your Senator. I would if I trusted my Senator NOT to do the right thing.

Personally I was not in favor of this in the first place until I went and researched what the entire bill was about. It's not about JUST Tanith but about other immigrants as well who got shafted with the rule change. Maybe if someone sat down and explained the entire bill to these parents, they would have stepped back and let it go. Maybe not. But they are certainly within their rights to complain to their senator without the whole figure skating fandom world getting their panties in wads over it. And since none of us have walked a mile in their shoes, how do we know they really did it, that the skaters knew about it and/or that someone else isn't doing something pointing the finger at them?

And how would you like to be this team who steps out on the ice at Nationals just to have no one applaud you? Or silence after you finish your skate? Or even the crassest fan thing of all-boo'ing? How would YOU feel if it was you? Whether you like the tactic or not, it is legal and it doesn't hurt anyone.

ITA. I don't really care much for David Mitchell and his partner, I would take B&A over them anyday. But at the same time, i'm not going to dismiss them or predict their fall, simply because they are stopping a favorite of mine from skating at the Olympics. As long as they are doing it legally i'm all for it, let the courts handle it.
Contrary to popular belief, I hope the Mitchell's understand that they have done nothing wrong but exercise their basic rights.

KwanFan1212 · Nov 29, 2005

Posts have been edited in this thread because people have forgotten that CoR has NOT aired in the USA yet and have posted spoilers from that event. PLEASE remember the spoiler policy for The Edge and refrain from posting results that have not aired yet. Thank you. Carry on with the discussion now.

soogar · Nov 30, 2005

*~RussianBleux~* said:
What I don't understand is why they would want to go to the Olympics anyway without truly feeling that they had earned the spot as one of the top 3 teams in the US. What exactly would they have to show for that anyway? I just can't see how anyone can be truly fulfilled knowing that if they didn't pull outside strings it never would have happened anyway since they don't seem to be able to earn the spot based on their own ability.

Maybe because they worked and sacrificed all these years and hope to experience an Olympics. Maybe they feel frustrated that M&Z and other newly formed partnerships are passing them by when they did "the right thing" and stayed together and persevered. Maybe they feel slighted that Igor Sphilband is politicking for his teams and other teams are being sacrificed for his teams. They might be worried about Stiegler and Magerovsky getting a nod as well.

They're not a bad team. I don't care for them but they've been through a lot due to injury.

Euterpe: As for snarking on GR&M's, why don't you cut them the same slack you do Johnny? They were out for at least a season due to Mitchell's serious injury. They will probably get better as the season progresses.

pennyfromheaven · Nov 30, 2005

RussianBleux, my, my I just can't get over how naive skating fans seem to be! 'How could they feel fulfilled knowing they had to pull outside strings to make the team??' Where have all of you been these past several years? Believe it or not that is how most all of the dancers make it to the top, exactly BY pulling the outside strings and politicking. Mostly it''s done by their coaches with the judges but parents get involved as well! Don't any of you fans know this or do you really think that the best skater wins in ice dance? OK, do any of you know that $90,000 was paid for Bourne and Kraatz to win the World title that year? Well that is exactly what happened and that is just one instance of the corruption that is in the skating world, HAS BEEN in the skating world for as long as I remember, and I have been involved in skating since the early '90s..... I could tell you so many more incidences of corrupt goings on but what I have found is that many skating fans don't want to believe the truth when it is told to them!

Excidra2001 · Nov 30, 2005

pennyfromheaven said:
Don't any of you fans know this or do you really think that the best skater wins in ice dance? OK, do any of you know that $90,000 was paid for Bourne and Kraatz to win the World title that year? Well that is exactly what happened and that is just one instance of the corruption that is in the skating world, HAS BEEN in the skating world for as long as I !

Who paid the money? Put the money aside, I thought B&K out-performed the Russians and the other top ice-dancers.

But I am very interested in knowing what really went down. I know people here probably don't want to read stuff like that, but PM me, I want to talk. :biggrin:

boggartlaura · Nov 30, 2005

soogar said:
Maybe they feel frustrated that M&Z and other newly formed partnerships are passing them by when they did "the right thing" and stayed together and persevered. .

M/Z are by no means a new partnership. They;ve been together since they were novices.

Mathman · Nov 30, 2005

pennyfromheaven said:
OK, do any of you know that $90,000 was paid for Bourne and Kraatz to win the World title that year?

I heard it was $9,000,000 (Canadian).

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 30, 2005

pennyfromheaven said:
I completely understand where the Mitchells are coming from. There is so much of politics involved in figure skating, we would like to think it's all about who is the best being able to go to the Olympics but there is so much more involved than that. That is naive and simplistic. It is not about that at all. It is about who was able to get lessons from the coaches with the political power to push their skaters forward. It is about skaters whose families are willing to support them at whatever the cost including moving across the country, etc. It is about money and power. Please tell me how many African American kids from the inner city ever even think of becoming skaters. In their culture that is not one of the sports they follow too much. But many of them may have the ability to become the greatest skaters of all if they were pushed in that direction as upper/middle class white kids are. Or they may want to but not have the support financially or otherwise from their families and that goes for white or Asian or whatever kids as well. The Mitchells allegedly did what they felt was necessary for their child to go to the Olympics; the same as the Belbins and the Agostos are doing. I see nothing wrong with that, what is ok for one should be ok for the other. Personally I hope Tanith and Ben do not get the special approval/treatment. I hope Tanith is not granted special citizenship in time for the Olys. Everything is not about who can get a friggin medal for their country, there should be much more to it than that.

Very interesting post and your other one on Borne and Krantz.

Much of what you say about money required for figure skating is absolutely true. It is an elite sport in the FINANCIAL sense. Unless a skater of humble means shows something special in the beginner's class at the local rink, and has an interested coach in giving private lessons, there is no way that skater will ever progress in competitive figure skating. (and momma has to sew those costumes) Inner city kids were first blocked from even entering a rink and now they realize that money will keep them from attaining dreams of competitive skating. Not unlike the community's private clubs.

But what got me is your take on B&K. Can you back that up with some sort of proof. If it is true, then C&G's payment for the SLC bronze becomes more believeable, and then who else won their medals by this means?

How much was Gailhaguet offered to ensure the Pairs result and by whom?

Joe

soogar · Nov 30, 2005

pennyfromheaven said:
OK, do any of you know that $90,000 was paid for Bourne and Kraatz to win the World title that year? Well that is exactly what happened and that is just one instance of the corruption that is in the skating world, HAS BEEN in the skating world for as long as I remember, and I have been involved in skating since the early '90s..... I could tell you so many more incidences of corrupt goings on but what I have found is that many skating fans don't want to believe the truth when it is told to them!

I wonder how much the Canadian Fed is paying to push Jeff this year?

Linny · Nov 30, 2005

Complete misunderstanding

No one in this thread has yet suggested what I believe: Mrs. Mitchell completely misunderstands the legislation. She thinks (and her letter bears this out) that a special exception is being sought to give people citizenship ahead of their proper place in the queue. She simply doesn't understand that there are a group of individuals who got caught between policies.

If someone explains it to her, methinks she'd write a retraction fast.

Linny

Jill · Nov 30, 2005

You hit the nail on the head, Linny. Also, if G-R/M practice hard, watch their diet, get enough rest and all that happy stuff, who knows? They might even EARN a spot on their own, without mommy dearest going to bat for them. It's one thing to go to the Olympics, and another to actually have a shot at winning. Sorry, but that's how it goes.

As far as inner city African American kids and skating, I think if that's their dream, they'll find a way. Look how far the Chinese have come? And they have hardships that we can't even imagine.

Now on to the international aspect of sport. How many skaters/dancers are coached by foriegners? Hmm? But that's okay.

swannanoa54 · Nov 30, 2005

Linny said:
No one in this thread has yet suggested what I believe: Mrs. Mitchell completely misunderstands the legislation. She thinks (and her letter bears this out) that a special exception is being sought to give people citizenship ahead of their proper place in the queue. She simply doesn't understand that there are a group of individuals who got caught between policies.

If someone explains it to her, methinks she'd write a retraction fast.

Linny

I did suggest that in my first post, Linny.

[Maybe if someone sat down and explained the entire bill to these parents, they would have stepped back and let it go. Maybe not. But they are certainly within their rights to complain to their senator without the whole figure skating fandom world getting their panties in wads over it./QUOTE]

But others are so willing to believe the negative first because it makes for great press or a scandal or drama that any suggestion that someone sit down and explain anything to anyone is scoffed at. And I'm not saying on here. I've been reading all about this at other places.

The fact remains that this bill isn't "special". It's a bill to help a number of immigrants who've gotten caught in the quagmire that is our government. If the true intent of the bill is to help more than just those with "extraordinary abilities", then I'm for that. If it's to push certain people through to citizenship ahead of others caught in the same quagmire, then that I am not in favor of.

And what is with people paying for World Titles? Is that true?

pennyfromheaven · Nov 30, 2005

Jill may I ask you this without you getting insulted? Do you actually know any inner city kids? Have you ever BEEN to the inner city? Because I find your statement preposterous that if inner city kids want to do it they will find a way. Have you ever met a crackhead? Have you ever met a ganster or a hustler or a child who sells drugs at age 9 to help support his family? That is the reality of the inner city. Dreams die there, dreams never even get started. That is just such ivory tower thinking you are speaking that I think you must certainly be a Republican who also believed there were WMD in Iraq. There, I got that off of my chest! Well all I can say about the price paid to buy the World title for Bourne and K is that it is true and I know personally about it. However I cannot of course reveal my sources online or they will never speak to me again! There is such a small circle of people who actually knew about it they would not have a hard time figuring out who leaked it. And I am not interested in making those people my enemies. My purpose in posting that information is hopefully to open some fans' eyes to the corruption that goes on in our beloved sport, to make you see that no, the best skater doesnt' always win, in some instances the best skaters never even get the lessons from the needed politically saavy coaches to begin with for a variety of reasons. Skating is about so much more than the best skaters working hard and winning a gold medal based on that, I wish people could know what really goes on.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 30, 2005

JillLaQ said:
.

As far as inner city African American kids and skating, I think if that's their dream, they'll find a way. Look how far the Chinese have come? And they have hardships that we can't even imagine.

There were no Asian skaters back in Dorothy's time. While they were permitted to enter the rinks, we didn't see an Asian competitive skaters until Tiffany (as far as I know) and I believe her parents could afford to let her take lessons. The Chinese Federation is government run; and there is a history of the Japanese Federation promoting the sport.

But aside from all this. If there is no Government subsidy, parents have got to fork out big bucks for all the to do's connected with figure skating. Not easy even for the middle class.

Joe

slutskayafan21 · Nov 30, 2005

I believe the career of this team is over anyway(and you know who I am referring to, not Belbin/Agosto that is for sure). They have already been passed by teams younger and the same age as them. I doubt you will ever seen them on a U.S World team no matter who does or doesnt have citizenship.

dfj · Nov 30, 2005

pennyfromheaven said:
Well all I can say about the price paid to buy the World title for Bourne and K is that it is true and I know personally about it. However I cannot of course reveal my sources online or they will never speak to me again!

With all due respect, then, you should keep your mouth shut.

gkelly · Nov 30, 2005

Joesitz said:
There were no Asian skaters back in Dorothy's time.

No elite Asian-American skaters, perhaps. Japan was fielding world competitors since the 1950s.

While they were permitted to enter the rinks, we didn't see an Asian competitive skaters until Tiffany (as far as I know) and I believe her parents could afford to let her take lessons.

Tiffany Chin and other young Asian Americans would have been just starting their preliminary skating training at about the time that Dorothy Hamill was winning her titles.

Of course, when Chin won her US title and world medals in the mid-80s, she became a role model for other young Asian Americans who were already skaters and even younger ones who were inspired by her example to take up skating.

Yes, having the money to pay for ice time, skates, and lessons is crucial. It's one thing for a family of modest means to pay for some recreational skating that turns into a dream for the child and having to scrimp, save, borrow, and look for sponsorship or donations to support that dream. It's another thing for a family that can barely afford basic food or shelter to even consider one-time recreational skating, much less competitive training.

Ptichka · Nov 30, 2005

Joesitz said:
Can you back that up with some sort of proof. If it is true, then C&G's payment for the SLC bronze becomes more believeable, and then who else won their medals by this means?

Do you mean C&S's bronze at Nagano? Because FP-M got bronze in SLC.

Mathman · Nov 30, 2005

Ptichka said:
FP-M got bronze in SLC.

And they were mad about it, too. They thought there was some kind of Franco-Russian conspiracy to put the French/Russian team first and the Russian team second, with perhaps some kind of a side deal on the outcome of the pairs contest.

People trying to oppose Tanith Belbin's U.S. citizenship

heyang

Excidra2001

KwanFan1212

Joey Votto Fangirl

soogar

pennyfromheaven

Excidra2001

boggartlaura

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

soogar

Linny

Jill

swannanoa54

pennyfromheaven

Joesitz (RIP)

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

dfj

gkelly

Ptichka

Forum translator

Mathman

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