Ladies Gpf
- Thread starter CDMM1991
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
To me, only the top 4 of those ladies really deserve to be in the GPF, as they medaled at both their events. For Sokolova especially this is pure luck - she makes it into GPF over a bunch of skaters who placed way way way way higher than she did in France.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
It was that win in skate America that got Sokolova into the Finals, and it put her ahead of all those skaters who total 14.
Joe
Joe
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2005
COP scores
1. Irina Slutskyaya 394.18 #l either way
2. Mao Asada 359.02 #2 either way
3. Shizuka Arakawa 346.90 #8 using placements
4. Alissa Czisny 327,62 #3 using placements
5. Miki Ando 326,64 #6 using placements
6. Joannie Rochette 325.52 #7 using placements
7. Elena Liashenko 317,22 #10 Using placements
8. Elena Sokolova 315.54 #5 using placements
9. Yukari Nakano 308.20 #4 using placements
10. Yoshie Onda 293,08 #9 using placements
It would be quite a different contest if they were using the COP scores instead of placements.
1. Irina Slutskyaya 394.18 #l either way
2. Mao Asada 359.02 #2 either way
3. Shizuka Arakawa 346.90 #8 using placements
4. Alissa Czisny 327,62 #3 using placements
5. Miki Ando 326,64 #6 using placements
6. Joannie Rochette 325.52 #7 using placements
7. Elena Liashenko 317,22 #10 Using placements
8. Elena Sokolova 315.54 #5 using placements
9. Yukari Nakano 308.20 #4 using placements
10. Yoshie Onda 293,08 #9 using placements
It would be quite a different contest if they were using the COP scores instead of placements.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
MM - How does the tie breaker work? There were 4 Ladies with 14 points:Mathman said:
Ando
Rochette
Arakawa
Onda
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
The first tie breaker is highest placement in an individual event.
So among the four ladies with fourteen points, Ando and Rochette have a second and a fourth, so they beat Arakawa and Onda, who have a third and a third.
The second tie breaker is total CoP points. Ando has 326.64 to edge out Rochette's 325.52.
It looks like the men are going to come down to the same thing between Oda and Lysacek.
MM
So among the four ladies with fourteen points, Ando and Rochette have a second and a fourth, so they beat Arakawa and Onda, who have a third and a third.
The second tie breaker is total CoP points. Ando has 326.64 to edge out Rochette's 325.52.
It looks like the men are going to come down to the same thing between Oda and Lysacek.
MM
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Arguments both ways....
I'm not sure I'd like to see a change for total COP scores determining the GPF participants. There are lots of variables.
Under the current process, "in theory" competitions should be relatively even because the top skaters are spread across the competitions in terms of invitiations based on their rank. This "theory" became skewed this year primarily due to withdrawls (SA, Kwan and Cohen withdrawls, TEB, Kwan withdrawl). But things also skew due to a skater having an AWESOME world's competition when maybe that's way better (or worse) than their average performance (i.e. Kostner). To me, that doesn't take anything away from the skaters who did the best at these events, and qualified under the current method.
Under a process that determined the GPF by top COP point scorers only, - "in theory" this would disadvantage skaters earlier in the season where "in theory" their programs are not as finished as they might be, "in theory" later in the season. That would be the main theoretical argument that I can see with this alternative suggested process. (although in practice it can turn out different, just like with the current process that is intended to balance the competitive field across competions.)
So to me, the current method rewards those who bring whatever they need to bring to the ice on their event dates to beat other competitors. The people who made the GPF successfully accomplished that. So congratulations from me to all of the finalists!!
DG
I'm not sure I'd like to see a change for total COP scores determining the GPF participants. There are lots of variables.
Under the current process, "in theory" competitions should be relatively even because the top skaters are spread across the competitions in terms of invitiations based on their rank. This "theory" became skewed this year primarily due to withdrawls (SA, Kwan and Cohen withdrawls, TEB, Kwan withdrawl). But things also skew due to a skater having an AWESOME world's competition when maybe that's way better (or worse) than their average performance (i.e. Kostner). To me, that doesn't take anything away from the skaters who did the best at these events, and qualified under the current method.
Under a process that determined the GPF by top COP point scorers only, - "in theory" this would disadvantage skaters earlier in the season where "in theory" their programs are not as finished as they might be, "in theory" later in the season. That would be the main theoretical argument that I can see with this alternative suggested process. (although in practice it can turn out different, just like with the current process that is intended to balance the competitive field across competions.)
So to me, the current method rewards those who bring whatever they need to bring to the ice on their event dates to beat other competitors. The people who made the GPF successfully accomplished that. So congratulations from me to all of the finalists!!
DG
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Yeah, this final isn't really the list of top ladies, is it? It will be interesting to see what happens - it could play out to the benefit of those not going, as they'll have more time to buckle down and prepare for the Olympics....I mean, who doesn't think Arakawa, Kwan, and Cohen will all have something to say about the podium in Torino? Skaters such as Liashenko, Sokolova and Nakano - not so much. It's not going to be much of a competition - they might as well just mail the gold to Slutskaya now if the judges continue true to form this season in awarding her (undeserved) astronomical marks (not saying she didn't deserve her victories, just that her scores and how much she won by was inflated, IMO). I'd say Asada probably has the silver sewn up as well. Sigh. Oh well, the mens should be interesting (though without Plushenko, the man to beat, it won't be a true reflection of the world's top contenders). And I'm actually looking forward to the dance. Pairs....blah. None of the top teams do much for me and the programs are largely a mess of blatant point grabbing at the expense of musicality, expression, clean pairs skating - but that's another post.
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2005
Ptichka said:
Maybe we could also ask, "What's the point holding this series at all?"
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I think we are taking the wrong perspective if we try to think of the Grand Prix series as some kind of pre-Olympics Olympics. IMHO it should be taken as a fun and interesting contest in its own right.
If some of the best skaters choose not to participate, OK, goodby and good luck -- see you in Turino.
I still think the idea of a GP final that matches the winners of the several events, irrespective of point totals, is the right way to go. A win is a win (a loss is a loss, and it's 90 feet to first..., LOL).
Plus, look what a thrill it must be for a skater like Alissa who began the season with no greater hope than maybe somebody will drop out of something and she will get to skate.
Or what about Mao. She could win it all, especially if it is really true that the ISU uses the GP final as the consolation prize for skaters that they have already decided not to give World and Olympic medals to. (I don't believe this, but it's an entertaining speculation.)
MM
If some of the best skaters choose not to participate, OK, goodby and good luck -- see you in Turino.
I still think the idea of a GP final that matches the winners of the several events, irrespective of point totals, is the right way to go. A win is a win (a loss is a loss, and it's 90 feet to first..., LOL).
Plus, look what a thrill it must be for a skater like Alissa who began the season with no greater hope than maybe somebody will drop out of something and she will get to skate.
Or what about Mao. She could win it all, especially if it is really true that the ISU uses the GP final as the consolation prize for skaters that they have already decided not to give World and Olympic medals to. (I don't believe this, but it's an entertaining speculation.)
MM
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
mm - Great analysis of the GP Series! or should I say The Crying Game?
Joe
Joe
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2003
...We need to get rid of the inaccurate placings system, a hjoldover from 6.0, and use the COP total points to decide these things.
... Any system that puts Sokolova and Nakano on top of Shizuka and Joannie is just plain stupid.
...Hasn't figure skating had enough stupidity. Will we ever have someone besides $peedy and his group of brain dead followers to decide these things.
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...If COP points were used, it wouldn't matter where or against who a skater competed and all the events would be equally attractive from the competitive point of view.
...And just having the gold medalists in the final is just as silly, because that would still have Sokolova and Nakano in there.
...If they keep it the way it is now, then no matter how hard they try to spread the talent, there will always be injuries and dropouts and some skaters will have it easy while others have it tough, but if they use the points then it will always be fair to everyone.
... Any system that puts Sokolova and Nakano on top of Shizuka and Joannie is just plain stupid.
...Hasn't figure skating had enough stupidity. Will we ever have someone besides $peedy and his group of brain dead followers to decide these things.
.
.
...If COP points were used, it wouldn't matter where or against who a skater competed and all the events would be equally attractive from the competitive point of view.
...And just having the gold medalists in the final is just as silly, because that would still have Sokolova and Nakano in there.
...If they keep it the way it is now, then no matter how hard they try to spread the talent, there will always be injuries and dropouts and some skaters will have it easy while others have it tough, but if they use the points then it will always be fair to everyone.
tripleflutz said:
See, the problem with just using point totals is that point totals trend upwards as the season goes on, in other words, those who skate at later competitions tend to have higher point totals. This gives a clear and unfair advantage to those who happen to draw GP assignments later in the year.
That's not to say I don't agree with you that it's ridiculous that skaters like Arakawa and Rochette miss out because of tough assignments while others skate, literally, into the final with ease because of weak fields. I'm just not sure what the solution is. One of the best solutions I've read, I think, is to look at increasing the number of skaters who go to the final to eight. That would pretty much incorporate all of the top scorers and the "lucky" few who win in weak fields. Then in the final it could all come out in the wash, so to speak.
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2005
rain said:
This is another problem with way judges are doing the judging under COP. There should NOT be any trends. If an element was executed the same way in two events, the performance should receive the same score in event 1 and event 2 -- it shouldn't be going up during event 2.
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