World title, Sarah Hughes?

Re: Sarah a legend?

Tenorguy - I think tossing around the legend word is done so as a publicity thing. It's like the use of "Diva" which is solely for a limited number of Opera singers but now has been transcended to the Pop singers and picked up by Katerina Witt for publicity purposes.

In figure skating, there is no question that Sonia Henie is legendary as is Dick Button.

Joe

Re: Sarah a legend?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In figure skating, there is no question that Sonia Henie is legendary as is Dick Button.[/quote]

No doubt. For current eligible skaters, Legend or not, we should wait 20 years let the history speek itself.

How you defined the word 'Legend'?
I think a more proper word might be 'Great'? That definitely not.

Re: Sarah a legend?

Sonja Henia definetely is a universal legend, but Dick Button? I don´t think that he is any legend for e.g. Europeans? What about Asia? Actually I had never even heard of him before I got Internet and read skating fans´ comments about his commentary, LOL. His Olympic gold medals he won before I started to watch figure skating (the same with Sonja Henie of course, LOL), and besides I only got interested in men´s skating when John Curry appeared on the scene...

Marjaana

Re: Sarah a legend?

Dick Button not a legend? Here is a little history on Mr Button.
Born in 1930 his first skating teacher told him that "hell would freeze over" before he bacame a real skater. He went on to become U.S., World and Olympic Champion working with Gustav Lussi who was a disciplinary in school figures. Mr Button performed the first flying camel and for many years it was called the Button Camel.

He won a European gold medal in Prague, Czechoslovakia in 1948. After that year skaters only form European counties were allowed to compete at this event.

In 1949 Button became the first figure skater to receive the James E Sullivan Award, he most prestigious honor in amateur U.S. sports.

At the 1951 World Championships he became the first skater to perform a double axel and a double loop combination jump. At the 1952 Olympics he performed a triple loop.

He was one of the youngest Olympic Champions at the age of 18.

He has seven national titles
He has 6 world medals (5 gold one silver)
He has won 2 Olympic gold medals


He was inducted into the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame in 1976

Re: Sarah a legend?

Then could we say that Sonja Henia is known by general US public only because of Her advantures in Hoolywood?

I was from China, I heard nothing about Sonja Henia, but I knew Pegy Fleming before I came to state. And I heard nothing about John Curry before I came to internet.

IMO, the Legend dose not decided by where general fan live, heard. It is skating history decide who is the legend or not. Dick B. certainly IS. So is Sonja Henia.

Re: Sarah a legend?

i think sarah will be remembered for that miraculous performance in SLC. i don't know about legend.... yet, her comeback routine from 4th to 1st is definitely one for the ages as far as a competitions are concerned.

her legendary status will only be secured through more such performances and if she should win another olympic title it won't really matter how many national or world titles she has to be blunt...:lol:

her heart doesn't seem to be into skating though at this moment. she's all eager to start school full-time. i harbor large doubts on her ability to be able to train adequately. certainly not to be a champion. even going part-time is kind of difficult while at the same time training up to par

Dick and Sonia

ITA Dick Button and Sonia are both legends. Not to take anything away from them, I felt it might be easier for great skaters to achieve multiple worlds/Oly titles back then compared to today. This could be my mis-perception, but it just seems impossible for any skater to win 3 Oly golds and 10 worlds' titles these days, no matter how great you are.

In the past, if you were strong in figure, you can win the competition even with a mediocre FS. E.g. Scott Hamilton lost both short and long to Brian O at the Oly but still won gold. I wonder how many of worlds titles he would have won without figure. And the same question for Sonia and Dick.

Net net, I think 3 worlds titles in the post school figure era = at least 5 worlds titles in the past

Re: Sarah a legend?

I think the term legend is about stories which accompany the true story. There have been so many stories about Sonia and Dick - many coming from the old Ice Shows. Some nice, some not so nice.

When I call MK a living legend I am just overemphasizing my zeal for her as skater and personality. She's not a legend until some strange stories come about. Skating to subversive music could be the start of her legendary status.

As to never hearing about certain skaters of the past - well, communications weren't like they are today. If your grandparents were not interested in figure skating then you probably never heard of Sonia; and Dick only because he is still around. Sonia, of course, is the Mother of Us All.

Hey, Russian Fans. We know little about the skaters in the Soviet Union from 1930-1965? Anyone have some history?

Joe

Re: Sarah a legend?

I think that at least the difference for me between Henie and Button is that Henie was famous because of her skating and movies, which were shown all over the world, I would think. Button on the other hand, after having gotten all those medals, I would say that he stopped to exist for Europeans.

Anyway, Button is a legend in USA, but not a universal legend all over the world, I would say. Also I think that just the number of medals does not make one a universal legend. Generally speaking, I also think that the expression of being a legend has suffered a huge inflation, LOL.

Marjaana

Re: Sarah a legend?

I think Dick Button is more than a legend in the USA. I think he is a legend in the skating community, which to me holds more merit than popularity of fans.

Re: Sarah a legend?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think he is a legend in the skating community, which to me holds more merit than popularity of fans. [/quote]

Well said. May I add more Dick is a legend in WORLD skating community. Though personaly I don't like his commentary nowadays.

Re: Sarah a legend?

<span style="color:green;font-family:georgia;font-size:small;">Anyone who has two Olympic gold medals and 5 World titles will go down in skating history as a legend. By anyone's standards, that is an amazing feat. It would be absurd to think otherwise. Just because the medals were achieved before all the media hype doesn't detract from the impressiveness of the achievement. Irina Rodnina with 3 Oly golds and (I think) 10 World titles is also a legend--even though all her medals were also achieved pre-media hype.

Michelle has stated over and over how she wants to be a legend. I don't think Sarah has ever stated such a thing (at least not to my knowledge). My impression is that she doesn't care. It seems that she feels she has more to contribute to society in other venues. She got what she wanted out of the sport--that's probably enough for her.</span>

Re: Sarah a legend?

Jaana - Dick will always be remembered in Europe as the non-European skater who won the Euros way back when and the rules for the Euros were changed to disallow anyone who is not a European to compete in those exercises.

It is no longer the European Open because of Dick Button. It's written in stone. The Europeans know him unless they choose to forget. He's a legend.

Joe

Re: Sarah a legend?

Well, I have been a fan of figure skating and followed it since early sixties on TV and the name Dick Button has never come up in any connection on newspapers or on TV. Of course it is different for those people who remember figure skating from late fourties and early fifties (I remember Heiss from fifties though, from the non-stops) and who were involved with skating as officials, etc. Only on Internet in 1996 I read how many people don´t like Button´s commentary, LOL. Gradually I understood that he has been a skater. And later seen his name on the skating statistics also. Quite different than Sonia Henie, who got mentioned sometimes on newspapers and of whom I first learned from my parents.

And as I look the results from Europeans at

www.eskatefans.com/skatab...romen.html

I don´t see from those statistics that there has been competitors from any countries outside Europe in men´s event since that competiton started to exist, and not in 1947 either (there was a war in Europe in fourties). So, the 1948 one where Dick Button participated seems to be the only expection in men´s event with a competitor outside the Europe.

With ladies the matter is different. There has been a winner from Canada, Barbara Ann Scott in 1947 (USA won sliver) and 1948, and participants from USA also in thirties. So, I very much doubt that Button´s win in 1948 men´s event was the reason to limit the competition for the European countries only. One can see in 1949 ladies competitions six participants from GBR, also the number of participants from each country has been changed later. Maybe the reason to limit the competition for Europeans only was the growing number of European participants in ladies event? The number of the participating countries was also growing there. The men´s events were a lot smaller. In 1947 6 participants, 1948 / 9 (with two participants from USA) and 1949 / 6 again. The ladies event had 20 participants in 1947.

About skating legends, LOL, everyone has the right to different opinions of course... I personally think that there is only one skating legend, and that is Sonja Henie. To win e.g. two Olympic gold medals does not automatically make one a skating legend (a universal one), there needs to be much more. In my opinion there is a huge difference between being a skating legend, a skating icon and a very popular skater. I understand about Button that he has taught to Americans about figure skating, has been on American TV a long time. I can understand him being a huge local icon, but in Europe the matters are different. We have not seen those broadcasts. He also did arrange pro competitions in USA, which we did not get to see on our TV in Europe.

Marjaana

Re: World title, Sarah Hughes?

With the questioning of Dick Button's popularity throughout the world, is MK popular around the world?

Re: World title, Sarah Hughes?

Hi, Ritymeez. Thanks for posting, and welcome to the forum.

You just opened Pandora's box with that one. We have been going on and on about that question for some time on other threads. You can check out the last couple of pages from the thread "Are You a Michelle Kwan fan?" in the "Voting Booth" folder for the latest.

The consensus from the people on this board who responded seems to be that Michelle is wildly popular in the U.S. Very popular indeed in Canada and many parts of Asia. Less popular in Europe and especially not so popular in Eastern Europe. (Although I saw recently a quote from the Russian triple Lutz gal, Ludmilla Nelidina, that she was thrilled to compete in the world championships with such legendary skaters as Michelle Kwan.)

Mathman

Re: World title, Sarah Hughes?

Mathman,

And there was comment from Elena Soklova (Russian) after 2003 worlds that she was hornered to finished second to Michelle. Her coach or choreographer (?) told her that in basketball there is Micheal Jorden then NBA, in figure skating there is Michelle Kwan then the rest.

Fans don't have to like MK, but her competitors always recognize her and respect her. I'd take words from peers millions time more.

Re: World title, Sarah Hughes?

Jaana - I hope I am wrong in assuming that if you do not know the history of a figure skater, he doesn't exist? If you ask Jacqueline Dubieq (SP) a French World Champion and a good friend of Dick's, she would know and she is a Eureopean.

I think like so many of the young posters that anything before Oksana Baiul and Ilia Kulic is extremely vague especially for those who did not get very much information during the Cold War. It's ok.

Joe

Re: World title, Sarah Hughes?

>Jaana - I hope I am wrong in assuming that if you do not know the history of a figure skater, he doesn't exist? If you ask Jacqueline Dubieq (SP) a French World Champion and a good friend of Dick's, she would know and she is a Eureopean.>

Well, isn´t a big legend supposed to be known to everyone, LOL? I mentioned earlier that of course those in the skating world would know..., but I personally did not recognize Button´s name. His eligible skating was kind of before my era, and apparently he has not been mentioned in connection of later competitions either by commentators or in newspapers here. Sonja Henie was looong before my era, LOL, but her name is very familiar. I just stated my opinion as an ordinary fan of figure skating who though has followed figure skating a long time.

Anyway, for Europeans when skaters turned pro, they kind of stopped existing, unless of course in these days as one knows other skating fans in NA. Before the Internet it was impossible to hear anything about the skaters after they turned pro.

Marjaana

Re: World title, Sarah Hughes?

Jaana - Quote: <em>Anyway, for Europeans when skaters turned pro, they kind of stopped existing</em>

I really don't think you are speaking about ALL Europeans. I'm certainly not speaking for ALL N.Americans.

But that's ok.

Joe