Kwan WD's from Nat.

slutskayafan21 · Jan 5, 2006

I dont think Michelle has been so obviously over Sasha the last few years that there will be any asterisk next to Sasha's near-certain U.S title. Yes Sasha has never beaten Michelle at the U.S Nationals, but Sasha has beaten her at the last 2 Worlds, taking silvers to Michelle's 3rd and 4th, and counting cheesefests I believe their head to head is 4-4 the last 3 seasons(they have not met this season), discounting cheesefests it is 2-2. Not to mention the kind of readiness Kwan would have had for Nationals, even had she deemed herself healthy and ready enough to compete, is certainly questionable enough it would be no sure thing she would have beaten Sasha.

slutskayafan21 · Jan 5, 2006

JonnyCoop said:
My thoughts exactly, slutskayafan. If this was a Nats field like the one we could have CONCEIVABLY had in 1992, with Yamaguchi, Harding, Kerrigan PLUS Jill Trenary and Holly Cook (who were supposed to be there but weren't due to injuries), it might be a different story.

Unfortunately for Sasha, if she wins, there's going to be an invisible asterisk next to her name on the champions list (*Kwan was injured) in the minds of many people, which is unfortunate, because there's a fair to good chance that she might have won it anyway.

You are right, unfortunately Sasha's win will be diminished in many peoples eyes, although she might change that if she really does a k$ck-*** performance, but given her inability to skate clean long programs in major events I would be surprised if she pulls that off.

Also the current U.S ladies field is not where it was in 90-92 by any means in that they have alot of young developing skaters, who could be elite seniors in the future(although perhaps none at the Asada level if she stays healthy and on course), but are just not there yet, outside of Kwan and Cohen of coruse.

show 42 · Jan 5, 2006

Not to take anything away from Sasha's skates, but Michelle has not ever skated clean when Sasha placed above her in any competition that I can think of. We've never really had a situation where a clean Sasha beat a clean Michelle.....42

Tonichelle · Jan 5, 2006

kyla2 said:
Tonichelle, I KNOW what Dr. Yu said and I also know better. You absolutely can sustain an injury close to another injured part of the body. They can be related and frankly I would bet there is some relationship.

hey, I was just passing along what was said at the press conference, I'm not trying to sound hopeful or anything.

Mathman · Jan 5, 2006

IMHO all this asterisk talk, and what will mean what if who isn't there, is based on a misconception as to what a National Championship means.

If you win the National Championship, that does not mean that you are the best skater in the nation. That can still be debated endlessly. Rather, it means you won that competition.

If you win an Olympic gold medal, that does not mean that you are the best skater in the world for that four year period. It means that you performed the best among the competitors at that contest.

MM

mzheng · Jan 5, 2006

Mathman said:
IMHO all this asterisk talk, and what will mean what if who isn't there, is based on a misconception as to what a National Championship means.

If you win the National Championship, that does not mean that you are the best skater in the nation. That can still be debated endlessly. Rather, it means you won that competition.

If you win an Olympic gold medal, that does not mean that you are the best skater in the world for that four year period. It means that you performed the best among those competitors at that contest.

MM

Agreed. All those asterisk talk is non sense. The ones who win the competetion just means he/she is the best in that competetion and that field. no less no more. no whatif.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 5, 2006

Well, there just might be an asterisk (invisible, of course) for the winner of the Olys (Mao not there). I know I know its a rule. I was just thinking about a Federation sending their BEST team which is an Olympic requirement. It's not in this case.

The Bye, the bye, the bye is the question and nothing much more matters at this point in time.

If I recall correctly, Kwan was 2nd at 96 Nats? She got bumped by the USFS to put in Kerrigan who was injured. Maybe the USFS will remember that they owe her something in return.

Joe

attyfan · Jan 5, 2006

Joesitz said:
...
If I recall correctly, Kwan was 2nd at 96 Nats? She got bumped by the USFS to put in Kerrigan who was injured. Maybe the USFS will remember that they owe her something in return.

Joe

It was '94 Nats.

mememe · Jan 5, 2006

show 42 said:
Not to take anything away from Sasha's skates, but Michelle has not ever skated clean when Sasha placed above her in any competition that I can think of. We've never really had a situation where a clean Sasha beat a clean Michelle.....42

I haven't followed Michelle-Sasha closely enough to be able to answer this myself, but ... has there ever been a situation where a "clean" Michelle beat a "clean" Sasha? And if so, has it ever happened under the rules of today, with CoP? I can't recall ever hearing of a time the two of them both went clean in two programs at the same competition.

I think talk of an asterisk by anyone's name for any championship they won is ludicrous. You compete against the field that shows up, under the judging system that is in place at the time. If you win, you're champion -- that's the end of it. I don't put an asterisk by any of Michelle's nine national titles and five world title, figuring it might have been different if so-and-so had been there, or such-and-such judging system had been in place. She won them, she's champion of those years. Ditto for this year -- whoever wins at nationals is champion, no asterisk needed. Whoever wins at Olympics is champion, whether Michelle or Mao or Irina or Sasha or Alyssa or Carolina or Silvia or whoever else is there or not.

flowjo35 · Jan 5, 2006

Joesitz said:
If I recall correctly, Kwan was 2nd at 96 Nats? She got bumped by the USFS to put in Kerrigan who was injured. Maybe the USFS will remember that they owe her something in return.

Joe

It was 1994 I think. I remember watching this on tape. Michelle showed class even then.

Mathman · Jan 5, 2006

USFS owes Michelle nothing. Michelle owes USFS nothing.

Michelle has greatly benefitted figure skating in the United States. Figure skating has greatly rewarded Michelle. That's even-Steven.

The sport of figure skating is bigger than any one person. Michelle as a person transcends her sport. Even-up again.

I think the bye talk will fizzle out. I do not expect Michelle to be able to skate at any kind of a competive level by February.

Go Sasha! Maybe when she wins a medal at Torino, Sasha will announce from the podium, "I humbly accept this award in the name of the Kween!"

MM

PS. Go Bebe!

slutskayafan21 · Jan 5, 2006

show 42 said:
Not to take anything away from Sasha's skates, but Michelle has not ever skated clean when Sasha placed above her in any competition that I can think of. We've never really had a situation where a clean Sasha beat a clean Michelle.....42

You could say that in the reverse though. Has Michelle ever beaten a clean Sasha? Maybe her 2002 U.S Nationals competition was considered "clean"? Even if it was 2002 cant be considered to be meaningful relative to anything that happens in 2003-2005.

show 42 · Jan 5, 2006

Point well taken, 21..................42

sk8addict · Jan 5, 2006

interest?

kyla2 said:
I totally disagree with the comment that Sasha will win by default and not be legitimate. On the contrary, she had a very good chance of winning this year with a highly competitive program. Come on, let's not be mean to Sasha because Michelle is out of Nationals. I do agree that CoP will cause people to lose interest. If viewers can't figure out the scoring system, they will leave the sport. I will always be a Michelle fan. She's the greatest figure skater of all time in my book.

You are right about Sasha but about interest in skating? Wrong. It has been the slanted judges & skaters being help up when they skated poorly that has driven the pedestrian skating watcher away. Look how after SLC the skating has already gone to ESPN. No money for cable...no skating for you. COP should have started to clean that up but I still see cheating. Shasa getting only 2 points over Mao on her component scores was unjust. She is skating more beautiful than ever & had been getting 70s now 50s? More judges cheating. Turn off the tv!

sk8addict · Jan 5, 2006

watch out

rain said:
I must completely disagree with this comment. Cohen had an extremely good chance of winning the national title even had Kwan skated. She has been looking far better than Kwan so far this season. Personally, I think Kwan was the underdog in the national's scenario. I could have seen her finishing third, or even off the podium given the kind of skates some of the other young skaters are capable of. Cohen, should she win, will deserve her title every bit as much as if Kwan had skated and it is extremely unfair to suggest otherwise. There's no need to put down another, very good skater, just because Kwan is unfortunately uable to compete.
I have to say, I'm Canadian, and the fact that at our upcoming nationals Joannie Rochette is virtually a lock for the gold and has realistically little to no competition, doesn't negate her win any more than Cohen skating in a field of competitors who aren't as strong as she is would negate hers. Another point - Czisny and Meissner are nothing to sneeze at competition-wise.

Be careful, you have just become a target. Stating the obvious & being truthful will get you attacked by those in love with the skater & not with the sport. How nice it must be to be from a country that values figure skating. I envy you.:agree:

sk8addict · Jan 5, 2006

millie said:
I have no problem with Michelle's fans loving her(but some of you guys are obsessed). Honestly, she's only a figure skater, and we all know how much she is LOVED by her fans, but you expect the fans of skaters and figure skating to sit back and let some of you guys malign the other skaters that are still able to skate. Some of the comments about Sasha on another thread are unbelievable, that's hate.

Thanks Millie!! :clap:

hockeyfan228 · Jan 5, 2006

Mathman said:
USFS owes Michelle nothing. Michelle owes USFS nothing.

Michelle has greatly benefitted figure skating in the United States. Figure skating has greatly rewarded Michelle. That's even-Steven.

The sport of figure skating is bigger than any one person. Michelle as a person transcends her sport. Even-up again.

MM

kyla2 · Jan 5, 2006

More

My point is forget about the issue of judges still cheating (which I agree with you about), but what about the fact that the average viewer is clueless about how to follow the scoring. It is too contrived and complex for them to get it. I see the sport dying if they don't make some changes. Sasha stood a very good chance of beating Michelle this year because she is on a roll, she has gained confidence and her programs are first rate. I am not sure Mathman is wrong that Michelle won't be at the Olympics. It will be a rough road back to be able to skate at the level she needs to be at. Personally, I don't see it happening either, which is breaking my heart.

slutskayafan21 · Jan 5, 2006

mememe said:
I haven't followed Michelle-Sasha closely enough to be able to answer this myself, but ... has there ever been a situation where a "clean" Michelle beat a "clean" Sasha? And if so, has it ever happened under the rules of today, with CoP? I can't recall ever hearing of a time the two of them both went clean in two programs at the same competition.

I think talk of an asterisk by anyone's name for any championship they won is ludicrous. You compete against the field that shows up, under the judging system that is in place at the time. If you win, you're champion -- that's the end of it. I don't put an asterisk by any of Michelle's nine national titles and five world title, figuring it might have been different if so-and-so had been there, or such-and-such judging system had been in place. She won them, she's champion of those years. Ditto for this year -- whoever wins at nationals is champion, no asterisk needed. Whoever wins at Olympics is champion, whether Michelle or Mao or Irina or Sasha or Alyssa or Carolina or Silvia or whoever else is there or not.

I cant recall a competition, other than perhaps the 2002 U.S Nationals(which Michelle won handily)where both Michelle and Sasha skated cleanly. In fact very rarely are there competitions between two Champions were both skate a clean short and clean long(even if we exclude the qualifying round, assuming both skaters are near the very top after it).

Yagudin vs Plushenko-Only competition both skated cleanly was the 98 Europeans, when both were still in their developing stages, especially Plushenko. At the 2002 GP final Plushenko actualy could be considered to have had a clean competition, if you discount his three turn in the middle of his quad-triple-double combo as not being a mistake; Yagudin actually had two mistakes in his final long, 2 in his first long, and 1 in his short, but still won the final long in a split to win.

Kwan vs Slutskaya-At the 96 GP final Slutskaya actually had a clean short and clean long, while Kwan fell on her triple toe in the short, came out of her second triple lutz halfway through, and Kwan still won handily with straight 1st place votes in the long, and being only 4th in the short to Slutskaya's 3rd. I should point out Kwan, even with missing her second triple lutz in the long, still had completed 6 triples, including a triple-triple, and a triple lutz, and atleast 1 of each triple cleanly; while Slutskaya only attempted 6 triples, 1 triple lutz, repeated a triple salchow twice, and no triple-triples, and the two tied on tech. marks with a 5.7, 5. 5.8s, and a 5.9 each, with Kwan crushing Slutskaya on presentation marks. I cant recall any other competition where both skated two clean programs, or where one was clean and lost to the other. At the 2002 Worlds both had clean longs and Slutskaya won a 6-3 split, but Kwan had a mistake in the short, and could not have won even had she won the long anyway.

Berezhnaya/Sikharldidze vs Sale/Pelletier-At the 2001 Worlds Berezhnaya/
Sikharlidze actually skated a clean short and long, and still lost to Sale/Pelletier when Jamie missed a side-by-side jump, the triple toe in the short, the double axel in the long. At the 2001 GP final in the first two programs, Jamie missed a side-by-side in both, stepping out of her triple toe in the short, and doubling her triple toe in the first long, and still beat Berezhnaya/Sikharlidze in this hypothetical 1 short/1 long combined format even though Berezhnaya/
Sikharlidze were again clean in both. In this event the deciding program was an additional long in the "super final" where both had mistakes though.

Orser vs Boitano-I cant remember a single event both were totally clean in the final long, let alone for both a short and long. Even at the 88 Olympics, Orser had some mistakes in the final long-doubling her second triple axel, stepping out of his triple flip. At Skate Canada that year both had some minor stumbles. Boitano had alot of mistakes in the final long at the 87 Worlds. Orser had a disaester at the 86 Worlds, and alot of mistakes at 86 NHK. Boitano had some mistakes at the 85 Worlds and came 3rd, Orser was pretty clean but flat and still lost easily to red-hot and erratic Fadeev.

Yamaguchi vs Ito-Looking only at amateur meetings, even if one was to exclude from their minds the compulsory figures of 89-90, and only look at the shorts and longs, neither have ever had a competition where both were clean together. In fact the only time I even remember both having a clean short was the 1990 Worlds. Never have both had a clean long in the same competition.
Pro competitions between them were better in 94-95, there were actually a couple both were clean at, a refreshing change.

Kwan vs Lipinski-It is interesting while the perception was always a clean Lipinski had no chance against a clean Kwan, and I agree to a large extent, and even a flawed Kwan had a reasonable chance to beat a clean Lipinski, and again I concur to a point; the actual fact is the only competition both were clean in, the 98 Olympics, Lipinski was picked the winner. Every other competion 1 or the other had mistakes, and neither have beaten the other skating cleanly with mistakes.

Competions between the big guns is rarely mistake free. You have only 1 time between Plushenko-Yagudin, and it was before their 99-2002 dominating rivalry started. None between Kwan-Slutskaya. None between Sale/
Pelletier and Berezhnaya/Sikharlidze. Only 1 time between Kwan-Lipinski.
None between Yamguchi-Ito, nor any between Orser-Boitano.

Mathman · Jan 5, 2006

Sk8addict, why are you being so nasty to people who like Michelle? You like Sasha. That's cool. Why try to start a fight?

Mathman

Kwan WD's from Nat.

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Mathman

mzheng

Joesitz (RIP)

attyfan

Custom Title

mememe

flowjo35

Mathman

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan

sk8addict

sk8addict

sk8addict

hockeyfan228

kyla2

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

Mathman

Similar threads

Connect with us