Slutskaya, Witt and Henie

This post probably belongs in the Ladies Free Skate thread. But I think Irina's achievement in winning her seventh European championship, surpassing the record held jointly by Sonia Henie and Katarina Witt, deserves a special note.

Sonia Henie was the dominant ladies' figure skater of the first half of the twentieth century, and brought the performance aspect of the sport to the attention of the general public.

Katarina Witt, with six national championships, six European championships, four World Championships, and two Olympic gold medals, set the standard for the second half of the twentieth century.

Irina just beat them both.

MM

Yeah yeah Irina, you go girl.

Skaters who hang around for a long time have a better chance to break records.

I'm just not impressed with Irina and Michelle's multiple triumphs.

Joe

I don't know Joe, isn't it thought to be more difficult to defend a title than to win one? I think both ladies'streaks are impressive. When you look at the record books these streaks are very rare,

Piel said:

I don't know Joe, isn't it thought to be more difficult to defend a title than to win one? I think both ladies'streaks are impressive. When you look at the record books these streaks are very rare,

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Agree wholeheartedly Piel. But most skaters take the Oly gold and run and so there just isn't that drive to keep doing it. I do admit that skaters without the gold oly do stay on for at least two Olys, that's another 4 Worlds for bringing up their medal statistics. While she is not my favorite, I have to admit, Witt hung out for two Olys and won both. That to me is more impressive, and had Coca Cola not given her a contract, she may have stayed in the game and won more medals.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Skaters who hang around for a long time have a better chance to break records.

I'm just not impressed with Irina and Michelle's multiple triumphs.

Joe

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Doesn't longevity count for something? These two (Kwan, Slutskaya) have hung around and competed at the top level when most skaters with less success (bar the OGM) have moved on to the pros or other things. I am impressed by Irina and Michelle's triumphs because there are new challengers each year, and they have performed at the top level all these years.

Vash

Also- if you consider the amount of skaters that stay in it for a long time and DON'T win any medals at events, I believe it's no small feat. There's definitely something in the comment "Skaters who hang around for a long time have a better chance to break records," but I don't think it's quite accurate. First off, you have to STAY at the top of your game for as long as you're around. The average top skater seems to have one or two real successful years where they win at least one or two major titles or medals (call it their "peak" if you will). At least now that seems to be the case- I don't know if it was like that 20-40 years ago.

I also think it depends on how much competition you have. I find myself less impressed with MK's 9 national titles than I am with her 5 world championships. I mean, she rarely had any competition at Nationals. Most of them were a cake-walk for her. But at Worlds she rose to the occasion when it counted, and that's more impressive to me.

I know a win is a win, but it's a more impressive win IMO when you beat a favorite, or if you face off against stiff competition and pull off the performance of your life. If you just kind of "coast" to a victory, it's not all that IMO. That's why I see Irina's 7th Euros win and Sasha's first Nats title as non-impressive. Very predictable results. But hey, they were still the best of the lot at a major comp, and that's something to be proud of. I'm just speaking from my POV.

Irina just beat them both.

MM [/QUOTE]

As much as I admire Irina, I bet 50 years from now Sonia Henie and Kat Witt's names will come up in figure skating history conversation before Irina's will. Although, saying Irina beat both of them...it's like comparing apples and oranges considering the time frame when these ladies were at their peak.

I for one am tremendously impressed by winning streaks.

Joe Dimaggio hit safely in 56 straight games. So what? Well, suppose you are a .300 hitter and you get 4 at bats per game. This gives you a 76% chance to get at least one hit in any paricular game.

The probability of doing this 56 times in a row is about 1 in 5 hundred million. (That's why baseball folks call this the record that will never be broken.)

Michelle Kwan won 8 National Championships in a row. What if a baseball team won 8 national championships (World Series) in a row? What if a football team won 8 national championships (Super Bowls) in a row?

As for the argument that the reason she won was because she was so much better than everyone else that there was no competition -- that just adds to the lustre of her accomplishment. What if you were so much better than everyone else (better at anything at all) that no one in this county of 300,000,000 people could touch you -- eight years in a row!

I, for one, would take my hat off to you.

MM

Well said, Mathman.

No superbowl team has ever won 3 superbowls in a row. Winning 8 nationals in a row is no small feat. They were not just given to her. MK had strong challengers every year.

IMO the European ladies field tends to be weak. Still, it is no cake walk to win there either.

Vash

Slutskaya accomplished this in the post-figures era, mostly in the 6.0 era, where a fall in the SP can leave a skater mired. It takes great consistency to win that many titles, since other skaters have less to lose.

I agree Kwan and Slutskaya both accomplished incredable records at the U.S Natinonals and Europeans respectively. One thing that Vash says I take issue with though, are the U.S Nationals fields really stronger than the Europeans fields when excluding Irina and Michelle of course?

1996 Europeans vs 1996 U.S Nationals-Michelle faced Tonia(Kwiatkwoski), Tara, Nicole(who withdrew), and Vogel. Irina faced Maria, Tonia, and Surya. Maria, Tonia(Savchenko), and Surya went 4-5-6 at Worlds. Tonia(Kwiatkwoski) even with her best ever performances came only 8th, and Tara(who finished clearly behind Kwiatkwoski at Nationals) after a disaesterous short program and an inspired long was 15th. I would say the Europeans field that Irina faced was stronger this year than the U.S Nationals field Michelle faced.

2000 Europeans vs 2000 U.S Nationals-Irina faced Maria, Viktoria, and Vanessa at Europeans. At U.S National Michelle faced newcomer Sasha, Sarah, and Angela. At Worlds Maria contended for gold with Irina and Michelle(Maria actually won the short before faltering in the long and dropping to 3rd), Vanessa took 4th, and Viktoria 6th. Sarah took 5th, Angela 7th, and Sasha took 6th at World juniors right after U.S Nationals. I would again say the Europeans field Irina faced was stronger again.

2001 Europeans vs 2001 U.S Nationals-Irina faced Maria, Viktoria, and Elena
(Liashenko). Michelle at U.S Nationals faced Sarah, Angela, and Jenny. Sarah and Maria battled closely all year, with Sarah coming out ahead of Maria to take 3rd at the GP final and Worlds just in front of Maria(4th). Angela took
5th and contended for bronze, Victoria took 6th and also had an outside shot at bronze. Elena and Vanessa were stronger than Jenny or Amber Corwin at this point. I would say the fields were almost a tie, maybe slightest edge to the U.S field that Michelle faced.

2003 Europeans vs 2003 U.S Nationals-Irina faced Elena, Viktoria, Julia, and young Carolina. Michelle faced Sasha, Sarah, Anne Patrice, and Jenny. Elena took 2nd at Worlds, Viktoria 5th, Carolina was in the top 10. Sasha took
4th at Worlds, out of shape Sarah 6th. I believe the Europeans field that Irina faced was tougher this year as well.

2005 Europeans vs 2005 U.S Nationals-Irina faced Susanna, Julia, and Carolina.
Michelle faced Sasha, Kimmie, and Jenny. Sasha took 2nd at Worlds, Carolina barely took 3rd far behind Sasha. Susanna came in the top 10, Julia did not, Jenny did not, and Kimmie came 4th at World juniors. I would say the fields that Irina faced at Europeans vs Michelle at U.S Nationals this year were close with probably the slight edge going to U.S Nationals.

To me I don't care who they faced. They both raise to the challenge and won. These are two very impressive ladies and I hope they are both on the podium at the olympics 1 & 2.

Mathman said:

As for the argument that the reason she won was because she was so much better than everyone else that there was no competition -- that just adds to the lustre of her accomplishment. What if you were so much better than everyone else (better at anything at all) that no one in this county of 300,000,000 people could touch you -- eight years in a row!

I, for one, would take my hat off to you.

MM

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You've got a point there. But which win is more "thrilling"- a win where you make the game-winning shot at the buzzer or where you blow out the opponent by 30 points? A game where you are the clear-cut favorite or when you rise to the occasion as an underdog? I'm not an athlete, but I think I would know which one I would find more thrilling. But in the end, a win is a win, and it doesn't really matter that much when you realize the outcome is the same.

So MK was the best in the nation for 8 straight years. So she basically coasted to eight straight victories. No real challengers at hand.

MK was the best in the world five times. Now, I'd be curious to ask her which one means the most to her- whether one has any particular value over the other one (maybe an obstacle she had to face or adversity she had to overcome to get it?)...Maybe she would give the standard, blase answer of "they're all the same"- but I still would be curious. Same with Irina and her Euros titles.

Red Dog said:

But which win is more "thrilling"- a win where you make the game-winning shot at the buzzer or where you blow out the opponent by 30 points?

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I don't know about thrilling, but crushing the opposition by 30 points -- ah, there's nothing like it!

Red Dog said:

I know a win is a win, but it's a more impressive win IMO when you beat a favorite,

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IMO, a favorite is in the mind of a beholder.

Joesitz said:

Agree wholeheartedly Piel. But most skaters take the Oly gold and run and so there just isn't that drive to keep doing it. I do admit that skaters without the gold oly do stay on for at least two Olys, that's another 4 Worlds for bringing up their medal statistics. While she is not my favorite, I have to admit, Witt hung out for two Olys and won both. That to me is more impressive, and had Coca Cola not given her a contract, she may have stayed in the game and won more medals.

Joe

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I thought it was documented that Witt wanted to leave skating after the first medal but was forced to continue by the state?

Ant

Joesitz said:

Skaters who hang around for a long time have a better chance to break records.

I'm just not impressed with Irina and Michelle's multiple triumphs.

Joe

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Tell that to Ivan Dinev, Elena Liashenko or Steven cousins who all spent/have spent near on ten years on the Senior circuit and won no championships dispute hanging around for a long time.

The key thing is not only to hang around but have the skill/talents to keep winning for the whole period.

Ant

they've all won their respective Nationals. Why not think this year I will win Euros.

Okay, no one else has asked the big question that's been burning in my mind.

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT HENIE WON _ONLY_ 7 (SEVEN) EUROPEAN TITLES?????

Did she not compete, was she beaten a couple of times? Was Europeans not a big deal back then? I though she had ten or so World titles? Why so few Europeans?