So where is the judges accountability?

antmanb · Jan 25, 2006

Just having a look at the protocols from Europeans and noticed that on Joubert's opening quad toe loop (by way of recap it was fully rotated, he held the landing for a split second but couldn't hold his weight which transfered back onto the heel, he slipped off the back and fell nearly doing the splits) one judge gave him +1 GOE and another gave him 0....

There is no way that you could possibly say that he landed the jump and had an unconnected fall. The jump was faulty - he didn't land it. Shen hung onto her throw quad sal at SLC for longer than joubert hung onto this quad attempt.

Why is no-one asking who these two judges are and if they are totally incompetant (which they must be) or totally crooked?

Ant

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 25, 2006

antmanb said:
Why is no-one asking who these two judges are and if they are totally incompetant (which they must be) or totally crooked?Ant

I go with the former. I hope they are not under orders. Any idea who these two blokes are?

Joe

Mathman · Jan 25, 2006

I wondr how many of these scores are just keyboarding errors#. Like the jugde who gave a 0.25 instead of 6.25 on one of the program componints last year.

The judges have a lot of kaystrokes to make in a few secconds. Look how many typos i have made on this very post.

MN

Mathman · Jan 25, 2006

BTW, Joubert did get a deduction for a fall. Usually a fall on a jump carries a mandatory minus three GOE. Four judges gave it a -3 and four gave it a -2.

Mafke · Jan 25, 2006

antmanb said:
Why is no-one asking who these two judges are and if they are totally incompetant (which they must be) or totally crooked?

1) We're dealing with the ISU here.
2) As someone once said, there's nothing an ISU judge can do to ensure their job security as much as get caught cheating. (that could probably be phrased better, but you get the idea)

antmanb · Jan 25, 2006

Joesitz said:
I go with the former. I hope they are not under orders. Any idea who these two blokes are?

Joe

In theory it could be blokes or ladies...unless the judging line up for the mens LP was all male?

Supposedly the marks on the protocols are in totally random order so no-one is allowed to know who gave which mark...i still haven't got my head round how the scores are worked out but isn't it the case that there are 14 judges on the panel, the high and low mark are thrown out and then the 12 marks that counted appear on the protocol. This must mean that at least one other judge gave a +1 or more which got thrown out in order for there to be one +1 still in the protocol!!! That's a suspciously high number of judges making typos. Smells too fishy to me to consider this accidnetal typo.

Ant <the king of typos!>

antmanb · Jan 25, 2006

Mathman said:
BTW, Joubert did get a deduction for a fall. Usually a fall on a jump carries a mandatory minus three GOE. Four judges gave it a -3 and four gave it a -2.

Which seems fair enough because you might give him some + points for the prep/entrance/flight part of the jump that mean the -3 was coming off a jump that if successful would have been +1 so the -2s i think are ok.

YEs he did get a deduction overall on the jump but that deduction was skewed by having the +1 and the 0 go into the calculation of averaging the GOEs. If they had been -2s or -3s the deduction woul dhave been greater...imagine if in Torino Joubert ends up with the bronze by 0.1 lead over the fourth place finisher and there are fishy looking GOEs from judges who's marks counted?

Ant

antmanb · Jan 25, 2006

Mafke said:
1) We're dealing with the ISU here.
2) As someone once said, there's nothing an ISU judge can do to ensure their job security as much as get caught cheating. (that could probably be phrased better, but you get the idea)

Sadly i do....sadly i do

Ant

Shanti · Jan 25, 2006

I was more than amazed by the judge who gave NavKos all -1 GOE for CD. Their tango was certainly not perfect but not to this extent

Mathman · Jan 25, 2006

antmanb said:
...i still haven't got my head round how the scores are worked out but isn't it the case that there are 14 judges on the panel, the high and low mark are thrown out and then the 12 marks that counted appear on the protocol. This must mean that at least one other judge gave a +1 or more which got thrown out in order for there to be one +1 still in the protocol!!!

I think it went like this. There are 12 judges on the panel. All 12 of the scores are printed in the protocols. The random draw eliminates three scores, leaving 9. Then the high and low are thrown out, and the remaining seven are averaged. (Note that all of the GOE numbers are decimal equivalents of sevenths: .14, .28, .43, etc.)

Often you can reconstuct what happen by the final number (but not always). In his case, the only way to come up with a GOE of -1.86 is like this:

The random draw eliminated one of the -3s and two of the -2s. Then the high of +1 and the low of -3 were thrown out.This left

-3 -3 -2 -2 -2 -1 0

as the scres that counted, averaging to -13/7, or -1.86.

Brian caught a little bit of a break because neither the +1 nor the 0 was eliminated in the random draw. It could have gone:

Eliminate +1, 0 and -1 in the random draw, throw out highest (-2) and lowest (-3) and average

-3 -3 -3 -2 -2 -2 -2

to get a GOE of -2.43.

MM

Mathman · Jan 25, 2006

Shanti said:
I was more than amazed by the judge who gave NavKos all -1 GOE for CD. Their tango was certainly not perfect but not to this extent

And not only that, but apparently N&K were unlucky on the random draw as well.

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11933

Shanti · Jan 25, 2006

MM, I read their comments about it in Russian media and there they didn't sound "angry", rather "disappointed" with their bad luck. Poor DivaNavka couldn't even sleep two nights because of it *drama*

antmanb · Jan 25, 2006

Mathman said:
I think it went like this. There are 12 judges on the panel. All 12 of the scores are printed in the protocols. The random draw eliminates three scores, leaving 9. Then the high and low are thrown out, and the remaining seven are averaged. (Note that all of the GOE numbers are decimal equivalents of sevenths: .14, .28, .43, etc.)

Often you can reconstuct what happen by the final number (but not always). In his case, the only way to come up with a GOE of -1.86 is like this:

The random draw eliminated one of the -3s and two of the -2s. Then the high of +1 and the low of -3 were thrown out.This left

-3 -3 -2 -2 -2 -1 0

as the scres that counted, averaging to -13/7, or -1.86.

Brian caught a little bit of a break because neither the +1 nor the 0 was eliminated in the random draw. It could have gone:

Eliminate +1, 0 and -1 in the random draw, throw out highest (-2) and lowest (-3) and average

-3 -3 -3 -2 -2 -2 -2

to get a GOE of -2.43.

MM

Thanks MM for your analysis above. I guess i'm even more shocked by how its actually calculated and that the difference we see splitting so many skaters after the SP (or overall) could be affected just by the random selection of one jumping pass.

This new system's a joke.

Ant

Vitacus · Jan 25, 2006

These were the judges at the Men's competition:

Mr. Alfred KORYTEK
Ms. Adriana DOMANSKA
Ms. Laura McNAIR
Ms. Inger ANDERSSON
Mr. Philippe MERIGUET
Mr. Pekka LESKINEN
Ms. Zsofia WAGNER
Ms. Hanna THEN
Ms. Guangying QIN
Ms. Christiane MÖRTH
Ms. Mieko FUJIMORI
Ms. Berit AARNES

These are the countries they're from, obviously not in that right order as listed above, but perhaps you can make it out?

Belgium
Belarus
Bulgaria
Canada
China
France
Germany
Italy
Japan
Romania
Sweden
USA

These were the

Referee Mr. Paolo PIZZOCARI
Technical Controller Ms. Sally REHORICK
Technical Specialist Mr. Scott DAVIS
Assistant Technical Specialist Ms. Zuzana ZACKOVA

Interesting with no Russian judge in the judging panel. BTW, when will Euro's be broadcasted in the US?

JonnyCoop · Jan 25, 2006

Vitacus said:
These were the judges at the Men's competition:

Mr. Alfred KORYTEK
Ms. Adriana DOMANSKA
Ms. Laura McNAIR
Ms. Inger ANDERSSON
Mr. Philippe MERIGUET
Mr. Pekka LESKINEN
Ms. Zsofia WAGNER
Ms. Hanna THEN
Ms. Guangying QIN
Ms. Christiane MÖRTH
Ms. Mieko FUJIMORI
Ms. Berit AARNES

These are the countries they're from, obviously not in that right order as listed above, but perhaps you can make it out?

Belgium
Belarus
Bulgaria
Canada
China
France
Germany
Italy
Japan
Romania
Sweden
USA

Are you sure that's entirely correct? I know for a fact that Pekka Leskinen was Finnish champ a few times during the 70s, but Finland isn't listed on the country list, unless he's moved elsewhere. Also, Korytek at one point was Ukrainian, but maybe he got shifted over to Belarus.

Vitacus · Jan 25, 2006

JonnyCoop said:
Are you sure that's entirely correct? I know for a fact that Pekka Leskinen was Finnish champ a few times during the 70s, but Finland isn't listed on the country list, unless he's moved elsewhere. Also, Korytek at one point was Ukrainian, but maybe he got shifted over to Belarus.

Hmm, now that you pointed it out...no, I'm not sure! Obviously the judges names are correct. I apologize for the screw up!

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 26, 2006

antmanb said:
Which seems fair enough because you might give him some + points for the prep/entrance/flight part of the jump that mean the -3 was coming off a jump that if successful would have been +1 so the -2s i think are ok.

Well, I'm of the school that a fall on a jump is a NO jump. I think credit for ATTEMPTS degrade the sport. I'm ok with a faulty jump which should be reflected in the GoEs. A fall, imo, is a mandatory deduction and no GoE should be given.

YEs he did get a deduction overall on the jump but that deduction was skewed by having the +1 and the 0 go into the calculation of averaging the GOEs. If they had been -2s or -3s the deduction woul dhave been greater...imagine if in Torino Joubert ends up with the bronze by 0.1 lead over the fourth place finisher and there are fishy looking GOEs from judges who's marks counted?Ant

Damn, you are scaring me with that Torino scenario. It could happen and it probably will in some discipline and all hell will break lose again. :eek:

Joe

antmanb · Jan 26, 2006

Joesitz said:
Well, I'm of the school that a fall on a jump is a NO jump. I think credit for ATTEMPTS degrade the sport. I'm ok with a faulty jump which should be reflected in the GoEs. A fall, imo, is a mandatory deduction and no GoE should be given.

I'm totally with you on that one - the only way in which i was "ok" was just within the meaning of these stupid rules!! I agree a fall on a jump should result in a score of 0. Just another idiotic comparison...was looking back to British nationals where one of the junior men performed two 3/2/2 combinations, as a result not one of the jumps in teh 2nd 3/2/2 counted. Because of the violation in the rules he received no points whatsoever for a clean fully rotated three jump combination. The same kind of way in which Pluschenko lost the GPF that year than sandhu won - getting no points for any part of an extraneous combination. CAll me stupid but wouldn't it be better to say ok - you get no points for the jump that broke the rule i.e. the 2nd or third jump in combination but you still get the points for the 1st jump? INstead the whole thign is discounted...if either skater had fallen on the first jump then they would have actually received marks because they wouldn't have violated the combination rule and would have been given marks for falling on a jump rather than completing teh cobinations and havign them given 0...that is a screwy system.

Joesitz said:
Damn, you are scaring me with that Torino scenario. It could happen and it probably will in some discipline and all hell will break lose again.

Joe

Well f the protocols don't come out til after the end of the whoel competition as the currently do now - we might not even know if something fishy has happened in the pairs til what a week or 10 days after the competition is over...the only competition proximate enough to the release of the protocols to cause a stink would be the ladies event.

Ant

So where is the judges accountability?

antmanb

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Mathman

Mafke

antmanb

antmanb

antmanb

Shanti

Mathman

Mathman

Shanti

antmanb

Vitacus

JonnyCoop

Vitacus

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

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