cool combos at oly with NJS

gkelly said:

Why don't you try it with a waltz jump, see how that works before asking anyone to try it with more revolutions.

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Technically that's a jumped rocker...personally my edging is awful and the only way i can do that turn is to "jump" it!!!

I think most elite skater can land single jumps on either foot because for single they stay open and floaty. Its the fact taht you train multi revolution jumps in the backspin position that causes problems for the landings of LBI edge landed jumps. And turning that into LBO edge....ouch! Though if there's one person in the world who i suspect could have a good go at trying...Rohene Ward!

Ant

Thanks gkelly and Antmanb for your takes on the 'One foot Axel' and the 'Inside Axel'. I certainly can understand landing on a back inside edge as being difficult and if that axel were permitted it should get high base value if done as a double axel. I still don't see the 'inside axel' as difficult.

I also don't understand the rationale for prohibiting these jumps. All jumps are dangerous, and these should at least be permitted at the option of the skater.

Is the back inside take off for the Wally, make it too difficult for mutiple rotations? Again, I think the skater should be the judge of that.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Thanks gkelly and Antmanb for your takes on the 'One foot Axel' and the 'Inside Axel'. I certainly can understand landing on a back inside edge as being difficult and if that axel were permitted it should get high base value if done as a double axel. I still don't see the 'inside axel' as difficult.

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I think the inside axel is a much easier jump than the axel - try it on the floor - its easier to get the rotation than for a regular axel. It can look messy though and sometimes people don't catch what you did and think you flubbed a double loop...it just looks funny because of the way your free leg ends up looking. But to try and get a double would be tough because its very difficult to get any height on the inside axel. In a regular axel you use your free leg like a pendulum to get height on the jump - the higher you get your free leg through, the higher the jump, then the skater "wraps into the free leg. For the inside axel - kicking your free leg through to get the height effectively blocks your rotation.

Joesitz said:

I also don't understand the rationale for prohibiting these jumps. All jumps are dangerous, and these should at least be permitted at the option of the skater.

Is the back inside take off for the Wally, make it too difficult for mutiple rotations? Again, I think the skater should be the judge of that.

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I dont' think the jump are "prohibited" as such...the one foot axel is just a variation of a single axel and no-one at the elite level is intentionally doing a jump as easy as a single axel. Thanks to Gkelly's explanation an inside axel could be used a transition move, but this jump went the way of the dodo in programs long before CoP was introduced.

As to the whalley - the single is difficult enough that kids at my rink don't start doing it until they have the three easier double jumps in their repetoire. Its a tough one because the inherent rotation on teh take off edge is counter ot he way you need to rotate (like the lutz, but with the lutz you have the toe pick assist which hugely helps). I love it when elite skaters go down the rink in warm ups popping huge whalleys from edge work. Looking at the size of them its a wonder a few can't do doubles.

Ant

Thanks for the clarifications!!

A double half loop, who did it?

gio said:

Thanks for the clarifications!!

A double half loop, who did it?

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I can'trememebr the skater's name but recently i read a commentary by Sandra Loosemore on her website of US nationals 1961 and she noted that a skater (maybe it was the bronze medal winner) did a double half loop.

Ant

VINLUVSKWAN said:

[Yoshi and Yukari, but both won't be going to Torino, either one could have easily ranked higher than Miki at Torino]

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just let it go...stop being so mean to Miki, and hope for her to deliver a great performance instead..

antmanb said:

I think the inside axel is a much easier jump than the axel - try it on the floor - its easier to get the rotation than for a regular axel.

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I was taught the inside axel before the regular axel, but I never mastered it. Hard to get enough power even for a single.

Mishin's skaters tend to use them as warmups. If you get a chance to see Plyushenko when he first gets on the ice for practice, look for it before he starts in on the triples. (At least, he used to -- I haven't seen his practices lately.)

antmanb said:

As to the whalley - the single is difficult enough that kids at my rink don't start doing it until they have the three easier double jumps in their repetoire. Its a tough one because the inherent rotation on teh take off edge is counter ot he way you need to rotate (like the lutz, but with the lutz you have the toe pick assist which hugely helps). I love it when elite skaters go down the rink in warm ups popping huge whalleys from edge work. Looking at the size of them its a wonder a few can't do doubles.Ant

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Is that the rationale? It's just too dificult? and the Quad is considered pie?

The days of yore. I used to see guys going down centre ice doing jump step left land on inside edge then jump step right land on inside edge then take off in a Whalley land it on bo, then change back to inside edge and repeat and often repeat again. Exciting moves and very rhythmical.

Joesitz said:

Is that the rationale? It's just too dificult? and the Quad is considered pie?

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No i don't think its too difficult i think its a physical impossibility, i can't see how you could generate the rotation to get a triple whalley done. Honestly i don't think a double is that likely given the rotational difficulty.

Ant

I'm not so sure about difficult. True, the jump begins from a back inside edge but it does jump into the normal rotation of things, and that is the same as the lutz which leans into the nformal rotation of things.

I can understand the bi edge as being more difficult making it more difficult than the lutz but skaters do not do as much on the bi edge as they do on the bo edge. If they skated more on a bi edge in general, the edge would be less difficult.

Consider if the whalley jump was given a level other than footwork and considerably higher for doubles and triples air turns, I am sure skaters would try to learn them and eventually take the difficulty out of them. Accidents? Of course! I just saw Oda go into the boards from a 'normal' jump and was dazed for quite a while after it. Who knows what the long term reactions will be on his future health?

I'm just thinking the option should be there and the jump should be level rated and not just for footwork'

Joesitz said:

I'm not so sure about difficult. True, the jump begins from a back inside edge but it does jump into the normal rotation of things, and that is the same as the lutz which leans into the nformal rotation of things.

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I dont' the think the Lutz is comparable because of the toe assist, now the toeless lutz is comparable and the fact its not been seen ni practice or competition for several years explins why.

Joesitz said:

I can understand the bi edge as being more difficult making it more difficult than the lutz but skaters do not do as much on the bi edge as they do on the bo edge. If they skated more on a bi edge in general, the edge would be less difficult.

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The skaters don't skate on their BI edges? Really? Whenever a skater does cross overs backwards or forward - one skate is on an inside edge while the other is on an outside edge. Footwork and turns...both edges are used by the skaters all the time. Spirals - the aldeis get higher marks for displaying use of every edge. Spins - especailyl now with CoP they're using every edge. Salchow - takes off from an inside edge. I don't think its the bI edge that 's the porblem its the rotatioanl difficulty.

Joesitz said:

Consider if the whalley jump was given a level other than footwork and considerably higher for doubles and triples air turns, I am sure skaters would try to learn them and eventually take the difficulty out of them. Accidents? Of course! I just saw Oda go into the boards from a 'normal' jump and was dazed for quite a while after it. Who knows what the long term reactions will be on his future health?

I'm just thinking the option should be there and the jump should be level rated and not just for footwork'

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I'm all for giving the whalley a proper rating like all the other jumps and seeing how it develops. I relly do believe that the free side impedes the height and rotation of the whalley and that you couldn't generate the airspin to get the roatations...i think you'd end up with skaters switching edges at the last minute to generate some torque to get the rotation...in effect turning the whalley into a loop...now what would we call that...how about severely whooping!!!
Or maybe a whallop!

Ant