A sad skate of affairs...

I am fairly new here to this forum. Even though my favorite skater is Michelle and I wish her the best, I do enjoy other skaters. I post at another forum and I happened to mention an observation that I made about Michelle's injury and it was like I opened a can of worms. It wasn't as if I said anything bad about Michelle, but I was being realistic about her injury and saying that it might not be a groin pull. Well, I was publically ripped by this particular poster and said that we should not speculate on her injury and so forth and so forth. That they trust her doctor and what he says is true. Now the best of doctors make mistakes. Some seem to worship her to the point that is all they live for. They seem to be in denial about her injury. Now, I hope I am wrong about her injury and I wish Michelle to be happy and healthy. But, first and foremost I wish myself to be happy and healthy, if you get my gist.:yes:

I have posted on here under under two names with time between and really like that this board does dsicuss multiple skaters and topics. But some skaters will always come up because of accomplishements, timeliness or simply interest.

Any thread about great pairs skating will invariably mention G&G, threads about wild interviews will get Johnny or Rudy mentions and threads about women skaters over the last decade will have Kwan references (and hopefully Irina, Maria, Fumie, Sash, etc as well). It's just a reality.

Sashasplat is a reference to early in her career when Cohen & Nicks renamed every move with a Sasha-mention. It became humorous (and quite similar to the Mike Pike comments many of us brought to task here.)

I think problems arise not because of comments but general tone. Some posts are the written eqivalent of cocking one's head and rolling their eyes. In general anytime a poster makes the comment that another's viewpoint is from a dream world, its a safe bet they are just looking to cause problems. And I will add to avoid any skater specific boards if you want to see accross the board balance- no matter how well moderated it won't happen there.

Can we discuss the Matt Savoie programs of the last ten years now? If that doesn't raise the level of discourse, nothing will.

What drives me nuts about skater specific fan sites are the endless threads that start with a question where the answer can only be the skater the board promotes.

For example (you can figure ot whose board it would come from):

Who is the most flexible lady skater in the U.S.?

Which lady skater looks best in her Vera Wang costumes?

Who's your favorite female skater with a chronic illness?

And then there are the really crazy one like..

How come Irina doesn't have as many U.S. titles as Sasha?

Matt Savoie

I think Matt is one of the very best skaters ever and I think he has been consistently undermarked. I would pay money to see him skate, he is that good. A skater's skater.He is also a first rate person.

I see MKF is mentioned (bashed) in this thread several times. Is this against board rules?

And I'm only going to respond once in this thread. Since my name was mentioned here.

Doggygirl, you mentioned that thread awhile ago about a new poster Ollibee. Who called "Sashasplat" -- in a mock way, then you jumped on her immediately, presuming she/he was bashing Sasha. The result was driving her/him away.

I would have no problem if some other poster who never read/post at FSU, but I knew you read/post often at FSU. "Sashasplat" is used often by posters there, even by some of most dedicate Sasha fans. It was a harmless nick name widely known at FSU, USFSA and ISU disscussion board. I never saw you called anyone "uncalled for" at FSU when they use "Sashasplat" there. Why here? Because the poster was new here? Or because he/she said some praise words on MK in that same post? Or just because you think GS is your territory but not FSU, so you called her/him "uncalled for" here instead of there? I just don't like to see poster being jumped on for a harmless comment, which was used so often in other general board. Which remind me my own experience being jumped on by you quickly couple of seasons ago....So I presum it had something to do with your screen name -- mockly again. If you felt offend, then I'm sorry.

And for the record, I never use "Sashasplat" in my post. Guess what, I'm a not a Sasha fan, though like her skating style. I read sashafan occationally. Never post there. (got banned from another general board owned by a diehard sashafan couple of years ago just because I posted in some other board. Well good, I'm a busy person with my own real life, I don't have time to compliment that board either.). I'm not Irina fan, I never read Irina's board........I don't understand why NON Kwan fans even bother to read MKF, and not occationally but ever obssively with almost every thread, not obssively read there even bother to post there (don't tell me someone here who bashed MKF you don't read there) .......sad state? yeah really sad state, some just can't control themselves or like to get on high horse to bash other fan dedicate forumn.

As far as Morganlee went. I saw couple of new posters at FSU, who registed for nothing, just post in every thread to bash Kwan in a less offensive attitude got banned/suspended from FSU. And like GS I they don't ban lightly. Even MKF they don't ban lightly. I say good job to GS moderator and adm. Good job of FSU.

All the Hail to GS moderators

My problem is with the specific situation in which morganlee was banned. Nothing in that thread was all that incendiary. Not terribly nice maybe... but still, it seemed within bounds.

Kwanford Wife went ballistic on Morganlee. Apparently they've had problems before, and that was dragged into the thread. KW called Morganlee an 'idiot and troll' and in the same breath apologized for offending anyone. I find this ridiculous. If you already know you're being offensive, don't do it, or at least don't apologize as you're doing it!

Joe, as moderator, quite inappropriately in my opinion, assured KW he/she was not offensive. I donot think that a mod condoning namecalling is right. A mod's job should be to diffuse the conflict and take appropriate action- banning if necessary, yes- but not to encourage namecalling.

When I said I was offended by the namecalling, I got a pseudoapology followed by a justification. I find that unacceptable! Again, don't apologize and make excuses in the same breath. If you think someone is 'an idiot and a troll,' report the post. At the heart of the issue: mods may need to think about trying harder to stay above the fray.

Anyway, Doggygirl, I can appreciate where you're coming from.

edited to add: plus if you don't like someone's postings, use the ignore option!

on solid ice

I have to agree Doggy Girl . . I stated that I thought Kwanford was being more offensive than MorganLee & I got NO response at all. It's ok for Slutskayafan to constantly attack Evan but don't say anything negative about you know who.

DoggyGirl, I am sorry you feel as you do about GS. I thought Morganlee was a troll also, although I did not say so. I'm not a Michelle uber-fan, although I do respect her, and it does seem to me that she gets a lot of flack on this board. Having said that, it seems that Sasha (someone else I like!) also gets a lot of flack. I think it just comes with the territory.

Regarding your comment to Olliebee, I'd just like to say that your response to me on the subject was one of the kindest and certainly the most gracious reply I've ever gotten on any board. I'm sorry that you are still troubled by that situation, and would like to say that I find you one of the most consistently nice and well-informed posters on this board, and look for your posts for those reasons.

Just wanted to get my two cents in ...

This discussion is not about figure skating. Would anyone mind if I moved it to the proper forum, the Feedback Folder?

The Feedback Folder is the place for constructive criticisms of the forum itself. I think we should keep The Edge free of topics along the lines of, "who is worse, pro-Kwans or anti-Kwans." 99% of the GS membership is not interested in that; they want instead to talk about skating, IMHO.

Mathman

sk8addict said:

I have to agree Doggy Girl . Kwanford & Piel were by far more attacking than anyone else IMO. I have never seen the kwan fans put any of the responsibility on Michelle for not properly training for the Olympics & being a partime skater. Instead they prefer to attack anyone who isn't bowing down for past performances. I stated that I thought Kwanford was being more offensive than MorganLee & I got NO response at all. It's ok for Slutskayafan to constantly attack Evan but don't say anything negative about you know who.

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There are two sentences in this post that are obviously baiting. Either they go unnoticed or someone takes the bait- either way everyone has yet another item to be go off on. And likely another incident of 'unfair treatment' to put in their back pocket.

And I agree that the 'Evan = devil's spawn' postings are beyond bizarre and border on inflammatory.

Mathman said:

topics along the lines of, "who is worse, pro-Kwans or anti-Kwans." 99% of the GS membership is not interested in that; they want instead to talk about skating, IMHO.
Mathman

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In my opinion the most important topic of this thread is not 'who is worse, pro-Kwans or anti-Kwans.' It is about appropriate behavior of both posters and moderators. Yes, it belongs here, but to characterize the discussion as you have above is disingenuous. It sounds as if you would like to belittle the discussion rather than engage in it. It certainly makes it easier to dismiss if you frame the discussion as you have.
I would like to know the opinion of the moderators and board owner. Is it okay for a moderator to approve of someone calling a poster "an idiot and a troll?"

baiting

rob43 said:

There are two sentences in this post that are obviously baiting. Either they go unnoticed or someone takes the bait- either way everyone has yet another item to be go off on. And likely another incident of 'unfair treatment' to put in their back pocket.

And I agree that the 'Evan = devil's spawn' postings are beyond bizarre and border on inflammatory.

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No intent of baiting. Just making a point about jr.mkf. Have edited.

"Thank you, I'm glad to be here tonight for this birthday party for my good friend George Burns. I have two good friends in show business, George Burns and Frank Sinatra. Frank Sinatra saved my life one night in front of the Fountainbleau Hotel in Miami Beach. Five guys were beating me up and Frank came out and said 'That's enough!' ".

Shecky Greene, speaking at the televised 85th birthday celebration for George Burns, sometime in the middle 80's.

So the Cliffsnotes version of this is:

1. Those who are not Kwan fans do not like for her fans to gush about her because it makes the nonfans sick and/or annoyed because the nonfans don't believe she is worthy of being gushed over by her fans?

2. The Sashafans don't want anything negative to ever be said about Sasha especially by a Kwan fan?

3. Someone who comes to the board for the sole purpose of taking pot shots at Kwan should not be banned even if the majority agree that the person is a troll?

4. Kwan fans should be banned if they dare defend her in a tone that the nonkwan fans don't like?

Skatefanaddict, I have done nothing to you and yet you continue to b**** about me. Let me repeat this because you obviously did not read what I wrote the last two times I have explained this to you. I did not bash Sasha and I am not mean. I simply said that IMO she was rude in the Katie Couric gelato interview. I also explained that the reason I felt she was rude was because IMO a polite person would not have responded as Sasha did. You are free to disagree with me but that does not make me mean or not a nice person because my opinion is different than yours. I have went as far to PM you and explain this and yet you still complain about me.

To the entire board let me say that twice in the last couple of months I have seriously thought of leaving this board. That Kwan fans cannot gush about her until the cows come home if they choose is just plain silly. We are not trying sell crack to grade schoolers we are just praising someone who we like and admire. That that bothers some of you so much is just strange. Why in the world do you care if someones fans act ...like fans.? We get that those who are not her fans are sick and tired of hearing about her especially since she has not competed this year. We get that some of you feel that Kwan fans are unfair to Sasha. We get that some of you think that Sasha should be the one getting the most publicity and all of the gushfests. We get that some of you think Kwan stayed too long at the prom and by doing so other skaters did not get the U.S. national title and on the world /Olys team. But her fans do not feel as you do and I for one am getting tired of her nonfans acting like there is something wrong with us for continuing to be her fans. You do not have to like her but you can't expect us not to just to make you feel better. People complain that FS isn't taken seriously as a sport yet when FS fans behave like fans of other sports and are hardcore about their fandom they get griped at.

Y'all are entitled to your own opinions of course Just know that I stand 100% behind the moderators. They have a thankless and difficult job in trying to keep the entire forum a comfy place for everyone.

Guidelines have been established. They ain't perfect, but I doubt you'll find a board that is. Neither are the mods, but they don't act individually when it comes to enforcing the guidelines. It's a team effort.

We take all circumstances into consideration before we make a decision. Be it right or wrong, it's our decision.

Mods don't owe anyone opinions - except to me.

Nutshell: Don't like it? Go elsewhere.

Piel said:

So the Cliffsnotes version of this is:

1. Those who are not Kwan fans do not like for her fans to gush about her because it makes the nonfans sick and/or annoyed because the nonfans don't believe she is worthy of being gushed over by her fans?

2. The Sashafans don't want anything negative to ever be said about Sasha especially by a Kwan fan?

3. Someone who comes to the board for the sole purpose of taking pot shots at Kwan should not be banned even if the majority agree that the person is a troll?

4. Kwan fans should be banned if they dare defend her in a tone that the nonkwan fans don't like?

.

Click to expand...

I can only speak for myself, but that is NOT my issue. My issue is that in my opinion, I do not believe that from a moderation standpoint, the forum rules are being applied evenly to all posters. I think there have been many, many examples of this over the course of this season. Moderator decisions in my opinion should have nothing to do with who is a fan or non fan of whoever. In the examples I used we have two situations.

1) I expressed an opinion that in the context it was used, I thought "Sashasplat" was unecessary. That was a response to post #4 from a new poster. I don't think what I said was in violation of board rules. If it WAS in violation of board rules, I was never told which rule I violated. I was publically reprimanded and accused of running a new person off of the board by a moderator.

2) In Morganlee's post number four, she expressed an opnion that Kwan never adapted to COP and was a 6.0 skater. A post or two later, she was called a troll. Then she was admonished by an admin that when you are new to a board especially, you need to be tactful so as not to raise the ire of more senior members. (I'm paraphrasing, but of course this can be reviewed in the "Michelle Kwan Withdraws" thread).

So, are "senior posters" (and how is that defined) required to never challenge a new poster? (and how is "new poster" defined) Or if a new poster is a Kwan fan, they are not to be challenged with a differing opinion, but someone who is NOT a Kwan fan can be openly challenged by "senior posters" (whatever that is)?

So in summary, I believe that board rules are not being applied equally to all posters, and I also believe posts are "selectively moderated" (poster is chastised or insulted) when board rules have NOT been violated. And I think the admonishments v. support are being based on skater preference more than actual posting behavior in many circumstances.

This style of administration is IMO appropriate, and to be expected on a skater specific fan board. IMO there is a pro-Kwan bias in the way this board (I assume it's still meant to be a general skating board) in the way moderation is being handled. I do not think Goldenskate will remain a healthy, general FS fan board if moderation / administration continues with the level of bias that I think I'm seeing.

Of course the direction any board takes is up to the board owner and team of admins / moderators at their choice. I'm just commenting on the direction I think this board is heading. If that's the way board ownership wants it to go, then that's fine.

I hope this clarifies my concern.

DG

This is all getting very complicated and confusing.......a lot of fuss over word choice and word tone..........If you "throw the first punch" is it the same as "defending yourself with a punch"........lame analogy I know, but to put it simply, Morganlee "threw the first punch", and Kwanford "defended herself" with a punch. That's how I see it. I wish it hadn't happened, of course, language choice is most important when all you see is text, no voice inflection, no body language or facial expression. To purposefully bait with the intention of causing trouble is what, I feel, Morganlee did and what he/she intended to do all along........her custom title of "bored and lonely" says it all.......

I too fully support the Mods and Joe's decision over this matter. I think they all do an admirable job and I'd just like to say ..........glad you are all here......42

Doggygirl,
I'm late to this and still sleepy so I've only read the first page of posts. But ITA with your sentiments. You have a great deal of integrity and bravery for posting your opinions. The Feedback Folder--brilliant!

To Gsk8: I'm sure decisions such as banning a poster are made as a group by the moderators and when I PMd all the mods about the banning of Morganlee, I was very impressed with how much investigation and work went into finding out about ML's past trollish behavior, which included being banned from another well-known general form. I was convinced right away that not only had the mods and you done the right thing in banning Morganlee, but also that you had thoroughly investigated ML's behavior on other boards as well as taken the entirety of the effect of her posts on GS. She abused the "laisse faire" (SP?) philosophy of GS. I didn't see it in my investigation of ML's posts, but no way was mine even in the same league as the mods and your investigation and consideration of Morganlee.

However, IMO, Doggygirl and others raise many, many important points about problems that have become increasingly worse at GS over the past year or so. DG, those who agree with her, and myself are not just whining about GS. We have been trying for over six months just to express some constructive criticism of the way inherent biases in the daily moderation of GS, but those who say anything are only harassed by a certain moderator and/or certain posters.

Of course you should be behind the mods 100% in their decisions about banning or suspending people who come to GS only to disrupt things. But I am disappointed that the attitude toward posters' expression of real problems in the current moderator-poster arrangement is met with "Don't like it? Go elsewhere."

There are problems I feel would be inappropriate to discuss in a post. Thus I will PM you about those.

Rgirl

DG, I understand your concern as to how the board is moderated and I think Paula addressed that. There has been much PMing among some long time Kwan fans on this board and we all feel that GS has become just the opposite from the MKFjr atmosphere that you guys are complaining about. In fact we feel that the tone of GS has become somewhat hostile to MK fans. I think one thing that has happened is that the nonKwans thought that after SC won nats and even more so now that Kwan is out of theOLYs that her fans would get off the Kwaniac bandwagon. Not gonna happen.

You saw the responses to Morganlees banning and even posters who are not Kwan fans thought ML was a troll. I think there is a difference in someone who comes to the board and almost every post seems to be antagonizing to a certain group. OTOH you have posters who have posted for years with positive contributions to the board information wise and when antagonized loose their cool. Yes both posters may have said even the exact same thing. BUT when both.the posts are examined in the context of INTENT and the posters contributions to the board I think what the mods have determined is that poster number one's intent was to antagonize while poster number two's post may have been just as antagonizing the posters intent was not, rather it was a not so well thought post made in angered response. I think that banning is a group decision of the mods not an individual mods act. I know that when I have reported a post to the mod squad Paula has replied to me so I am pretty sure that she is in ultimate control of thge board. I also think that banning is not often. There has to be multiple complaints from posters of different POV and even after that GS'spolicy seems to be to let us work it out through the PM system. I really think they only ban inextreme cases. Also they can usually tell if a troll has been previously banned and has reregistered under a different name but with the same agenda. ML "bored and lonely" fit that description and in fact every time ML reregisters even with a different name still uses the "bored and lonely" under his/her name.

It used to be fun to post here. We would have sarcastic threads, parodies, RGirl's GS awards...;. The tone of the board has become so hostile between Kwan fans and Sasha fans those fun threads aren't possible anymore and I for one miss them. I come here to play. I don't skate, my life is not centered around skating. When I first found Paula over at About.com I thought it was so cool because like a lot of posters I ndon't have a lot of people to discuss FS with. What I like best is seeing if other people came away from a competition with the same impression that I did whether it was someone wuz robbed or yes that dress was as ugly as I thought it was. Lots of time I have come to appreciate a different POV from my own which is a bonus, IMO. Now I am worried about our board. It seems that if anything negative is posted about Sasha someone has to try and take a shot at Kwan to "get back" at the poster for "picking on" Sasha. And then they complain that somone has ruined a SC thread by bringing Kwan into it, LOL. It seems like they can't undersatnd that someone might say something negative about Cohen independant of their feeling for Kwan. It is hard to find something bad to say about Kwan's character because she has not made a bad step that we know of. I think that irritates the nonKwans so much that they start attacking her fans because they have nothing to attack her about. I don't know how this can be resolved. Kwan fans are not going to stop being her fans. And it seems that nonKwans don't want us to post good things about her.

Hey Paula for some reason the effect of your post is lost when looking at your avator .