CoP: points for falls

I am concerned that the judging system encourages skaters to attempt extremely difficult elements which they cannot complete simply to gain points. For instance, a fall on a fully rotated quad attempt gives the same number of points as a clean 3loop (5.0)! This is stupid. There is a difference between promoting risk and promoting sloppy skating. Right now, CoP encourages the latter.

My suggestion: for flawed elements (step-out, two-footed, etc.) continue to give credit with negative GOE. But for an outright fall, instead of getting -4 points on the element the skater should simply be given no points. This gives credit for a good try while harshly punishing outright disaster. Perhaps then skaters will be less likely to make Hail Mary attempts on difficult moves which they have a snowball in hell chance of completing.

Another alternative would be to give bonus points for a skate without any falls/clean program.

This is not a criticism of the current medalists. They earned their medals fairly based on the rules at this time. But a fall is a fall, whether it is on a 4toe or 2toe. It is an ugly failure to do an element. The system should not encourage falls by giving out points for falling on highly difficult elements. If this continues, people will stop watching skating.

I agree with you 100%. :thumbsup: When people tune into the Olympics, they want to see beautiful, clean programs from their medalists, like Brian Boitano's in '88. I don't think that rewarding skaters for falling on a difficult jump will encourage more skaters to try harder tricks. Certainly that didn't motivate Dick Button when he completed the first triple, nor did it motivate Kurt Browning when he completed the quad. They knew they *could* do it, and would be rewarded if they did it *right*.

I agree that there should be points awarded for an attempt that is two-footed or turned out, but not for a fall. I think there should be additional points awarded for a clean program. There's nothing wrong with encouraging excellence.

I think the current system of rewarding falls turns people away from the sport. What's worse than watching someone give a gorgeous, spellbinding performance, and then to watch them be beaten by someone who did some butt skating??

Ita

Count me in too. You are both spot on/absolutely right. A clean program should garner more points, not excessive risk when you can't do the jump.

I wish they'd go back to using the 6.0 and have the scoring system be more specific and simple for people to understand.

One of the early criticisms of CoP was that it discouraged quads because penalties for falls were so severe - originally no points for elements, PLUS a deduction. I agree that what we see now is ridiculous, but I'm not sure giving no credit at all for falls is the solution.

Ok i just don't get it. Threads are started saying the current system discourages skaters from trying the harder elements they're not sure to hit because of the severe penalties, then threads get started saying that the current system is encouraging people to put things in their programs that they have no chance of landing because the penalties are not harsh enough.

Its a bit of stale mate really for the powers that be if people are really this divided on teh opnion since any movement either way upsets the rest!

Ant

Ptichka said:

One of the early criticisms of CoP was that it discouraged quads because penalties for falls were so severe - originally no points for elements, PLUS a deduction.

Click to expand...

I didn't agree with that either -- it is too harsh. You don't want to totally discourage skaters from trying anything hard. I would just say no points, no deduction.

antmanb said:

Ok i just don't get it. Threads are started saying the current system discourages skaters from trying the harder elements they're not sure to hit because of the severe penalties, then threads get started saying that the current system is encouraging people to put things in their programs that they have no chance of landing because the penalties are not harsh enough.

Ant

Click to expand...

If you get 5 pts. for falling on a quad attempt, how is that a "severe penalty?" The system needs to find the right balance and it very clearly has not found it yet.

Falls in Ice Dancing

Falls in singles and pairs should be handled differently than falls in ice dancing. Falls in ice dancing should be punished more severely.

Linny

It has always been my position when CoP was first applied, that a falled jump should get no points at all if not add more deduction for disrupption of the program. Compare to old system, in 6.0 scale no credit on a falled jump, the punishment is more severer than NJS with -4 deduction.

Take SP for example,
In old system a falled jump got 0.4 deduction off 6.0
In CoP a falled jump got -4 deduction off a typical 70 points.

In LP the difference between two system is even bigger. That's why Jeff would put a quad in his LP even knowing he would fall, but as long as he got it full rotated he'd got 5 points on that jump pass.

I'm of the school of thought that an element in any sport if not completed should not be credited at all.

How many Sports give credit for an attempt? Only figure skating, I think, and is that really a Sport?

Joe

Weiss

Michael Weiss has been trying quads he couldn't complete in the 6.0 system for years & it obviously paid off for him. It's nothing new.

Ogre Mage said:

If you get 5 pts. for falling on a quad attempt, how is that a "severe penalty?" The system needs to find the right balance and it very clearly has not found it yet.

Click to expand...

I wasn't criticising either point of view i was doing abit of fence sitting and observing that people think the penalties harsh.

To take your example, you get 5 points for falling on a fully rotated quad jump. Often (present Olympic Champion excepted) if you fall on a quad attempt its because you're short on rotation. I havne't looked at the protocols and maybe joubert got the benefit of the doubt - his first quad was on the border line of a quarter short so that could go either way - the second one was definitely short and should have called a triple.

I agree that the system is not working correctly yet - i think the underotating penalty needs to be looked at.

The only problem i can see about giving no marks for an jump that you fall on, is part of the problem now - what's a fall? How do you define it? Clearly you think Jeff Buttle's fall on the quad is one that deserves no marks...what about a skater who falls forward and puts both hand down on the ice? Is that a flawed jump that still gets marks because the whole body didn't go down? But just because the fall went forwards and our anatmoy is such that we tend to catch ourselves more often if we fall forwards than the virtual impossiblity of catching yourself if you fall backwards (that or broken wrists). Where do you draw the line? What about (and i forget the skater who did this) a really severe step out on a jump, the skater then immediately trips themselves up and starts toe pick dancing to save himself from going down...that is about as flawed as i've seen a jump but no fall so would that still get marks?

The ridiculous thing about any code of points is that you're trying to lay down the law about something that cannot be made to fit within the rigidity of the system. the whole not being able to see the wood for the trees. The CoP and any tinkering of it is playing about at the tree level and really the most important thing is the program as a whole and comparing one with that of another skater. I don't think Pluschenko won this year as convincingly as his score claims.

Ant

mzheng said:

It has always been my position when CoP was first applied, that a falled jump should get no points at all if not add more deduction for disrupption of the program. Compare to old system, in 6.0 scale no credit on a falled jump, the punishment is more severer than NJS with -4 deduction.

Take SP for example,
In old system a falled jump got 0.4 deduction off 6.0
In CoP a falled jump got -4 deduction off a typical 70 points.

In LP the difference between two system is even bigger. That's why Jeff would put a quad in his LP even knowing he would fall, but as long as he got it full rotated he'd got 5 points on that jump pass.

Click to expand...

While i agree with you about the SP I diagree about the LP - the official rule book said (now i'm paraphrasing but i'm fairly sure i'm prtty much spot on with the language) that a failed quad jump should be given no more credit than successful double jump. Strictly speaking that's not no credit that's the same as a clean double. Now i realise at the moment that a failed quad is about as good as an clean easier base triple and agree that something should be done but it is a misconception that the old system didn't reward failed jumps.

Plus there's the small matter of the judges just giving one mark out for technical. If a judge gives a 5.8 then how do we know how much weight they may or may not have given a failed quad?

Ant

A failed jump is also an unsuccessful attempted jump. Whatever the rule is, imo, a failed jump is not a legal jump,

I think in the 6.0 system failed jumps worked in the presentation LP scores because, the whole package was more important. In CoP it is believed that the PCS scores cover the whole of presentation. I'm not so sure of that.

Joe

Written before the falls

My post about falls in ice dancing - that they should be severely punished - was written before I became aware of the recent spat of falls in ice dancing! Hope I didn't jinx anyone!

Linny

To me, if you fall (and by that I mean land on your patootie, hip, whatever) on a jump, then you didn't complete the jump. Rotations in the air don't count. If you attempt a quad and you fall down on the landing, that's not completed.

And to me, a fall disrupts a program. I see no such thing as a "good" fall. It is disruptive to any program and should receive no credit.

However if a person completes the jump but puts a hand down on the ice, there should be a deduction for that from the overall points for the jump.

What really makes me ill is that skaters will attempt these jumps, ie Buttle, knowing they probably will land on their patooties and will still receive credit for completing the rotations. That galls me. I also wish they'd deduct for flutzing as well.

But this is just me. All this "let's do this to earn more points doesn't matter if we fall" crud is just that: crud.

swannanoa54 said:

To me, if you fall (and by that I mean land on your patootie, hip, whatever) on a jump, then you didn't complete the jump. Rotations in the air don't count. If you attempt a quad and you fall down on the landing, that's not completed.

And to me, a fall disrupts a program. I see no such thing as a "good" fall. It is disruptive to any program and should receive no credit.

However if a person completes the jump but puts a hand down on the ice, there should be a deduction for that from the overall points for the jump.

What really makes me ill is that skaters will attempt these jumps, ie Buttle, knowing they probably will land on their patooties and will still receive credit for completing the rotations. That galls me. I also wish they'd deduct for flutzing as well.

But this is just me. All this "let's do this to earn more points doesn't matter if we fall" crud is just that: crud.

Click to expand...

BUt to my mind a fall where the sklater loses all control and balnce and has to put both hands down on the ice to stop from falling all the way down is the same mistake as the one who falls to teh side or backwards but doesn't catch themselves...technically whatever went wrong with the first example went wrong with ehe second example only you stand a chance to not end up sitting or lying on the ice if you fall forwards, its equally not fair.

Ant

mzheng said:

In LP the difference between two system is even bigger. That's why Jeff would put a quad in his LP even knowing he would fall, but as long as he got it full rotated he'd got 5 points on that jump pass.

Click to expand...

I seriously doubt that any skater would go in with the aim of falling on a jump..hasn't Jeff sucessfully landed a quad before? Unless you know u have a chance at making the jump it's not very wise to do it considering what will happen if you're not fully rotated. Takahashi didn't rotate his jump enough, and ended up getting 1 point for it, I don't think that try paid off for him..

antmanb said:

The only problem i can see about giving no marks for an jump that you fall on, is part of the problem now - what's a fall? How do you define it? Clearly you think Jeff Buttle's fall on the quad is one that deserves no marks...what about a skater who falls forward and puts both hand down on the ice?

Click to expand...

Well, that raises an interesting point. CoP already mandates a -1 pt. penalty for a fall plus -3 GOE. What is the definition of a "fall" in the CoP rulebook? Or is it completely under the discretion of the technical caller? If "falling" is not clearly defined, then it should be. In the example that you gave, I would have to see it live to make a decision. If it was just just both hands brushing against the ice with a wild free leg, I would be tempted to give it credit with -3 GOE. If some other part of their body made contact with the ice (arm, leg, both feet, etc.) I would probably treat it as a fall and give it a goose egg.

You are correct, I would not have given Buttle's quad fall any credit and Jeff is my favorite current man. The problem isn't Jeff, the problem is the system. Jeff just competed intelligently based on the rules, which is more than I can say for some others.

Plush's marks were ridiculous for the no choreography skate he had, but there already is a pretty long thread on that in the Olympics section.