Fumie's technical score was lower than Sasha's | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Fumie's technical score was lower than Sasha's

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
NBC bought Sasha's scores, just like they bought the scores of Lysacek, and just like NBC bought the golds of Hamm and Patterson in Athens. Looking at the skating alone for answers will likely leave you still confused, since her scores were not related strictly to her skating performances. As for Suguri, in a fair world she would have moved up to bronze with her free skate, but she is not American, and even if she was she may not have been the one NBC designated to be gifted scores.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
??? I'm sorry SF, you have me completely lost.

It's just so not true. A conspiracy theory out of left field. Don't you think SOME sort of controversy would eventually develop if this was the case?

Whatever, though.
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Red Dog said:
??? I'm sorry SF, you have me completely lost.

It's just so not true. A conspiracy theory out of left field. Don't you think SOME sort of controversy would eventually develop if this was the case?

Whatever, though.

Like I said, look at Worlds for the PCS scores of Cohen, Lysacek and others to go noticeably down for similar performances; just as I said would happen to Joubert at Olympics compared to Europeans and it did. It wont be coincidence.

I cant see any other way Cohen with two huge falls beating Irina, or Lysacek getting almost the same PCS as Lambiel and higher spin scores than Buttle and Lambiel, and Belbin/Agosto winning silver with two stumbles on twizzles in the long.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
slutskayafan21 said:
NBC bought Sasha's scores, just like they bought the scores of Lysacek, and just like NBC bought the golds of Hamm and Patterson in Athens.
I am outraged! NBC bought gold medals for the gymnasts but only a silver and a fourth for figure skaters? Boy, that shows where their true loyalty lies.

Next time let's lobby for ABC to get the Olympics. Gold for Katy Taylor and Charlie White. (Who's Charlie White? Just wait and see!!!!!)
As for Suguri, in a fair world she would have moved up to bronze with her free skate...
...but those darn NBC executives decided to cheat for Slutskaya instead! Grrr.

MM :)
 

ladysarahchatto

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
slutskayafan21 said:
NBC bought Sasha's scores, just like they bought the scores of Lysacek, and just like NBC bought the golds of Hamm and Patterson in Athens. Looking at the skating alone for answers will likely leave you still confused, since her scores were not related strictly to her skating performances. As for Suguri, in a fair world she would have moved up to bronze with her free skate, but she is not American, and even if she was she may not have been the one NBC designated to be gifted scores.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 

Engwaciriel

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Why does everyone think Lysacek got too high scores? I really don't get that, he didn't make one single mistake. You say Suguri should be rewarded for skating a (almost) perfect program, which I do agree with, but Lysacek shouldn't? come on..
 

Gr8Sk8s

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 20, 2004
hockeyfan228 said:
Cohen's base score was 57.5, the highest base score of any skater in the free skate. (Arakawa's was 57.3). Cohen attempted and rotated seven triples, more than any women in the top 10. The next highest attempted and rotated triple count was five.


You're wrong. Joannie Rochette did LAND PERFECTLY (exception maybe for that scary triple salchow) 6 triple jumps and even doubled her second attemp to a triple lutz (she had 7 triples planned). Further more, she had the second best Technical Score of the night...

:bow: Way to go Joannie !! :bow:
 
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Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
RubyNV said:
Figure skating will remain a laughing stock in the sports world (considered fluff and ignored most of the time in most newspaper sports sections) if jumps and other purely athletic moves aren't taken more seriously. It is dead wrong for an attempted jump that is not landed to be counted. Sasha did have two falls.
She was all the way down on both hands on the second failed jump.
There's no way that any points should be received for something like that.
Why should it matter if it is rotated all the way in the air if the person can't land it?

Overall I agree with Fumie's 4th place finish because of the other things mentioned here. Fumie's overall skate was not strong enough, IMO- weak footwork, weak spins, weak musical interpretation- even though she more or less landed the jumps. However, I have a real problem with a skater being given credit simply for rotating the jump even though he/she could not land it. We saw something similar in the mens LP with Buttle. Landing a jump has to be important, otherwise why bother to call this a sport? I can see a minor problem with a landing get partial credit (e.g. a turnout, two-foot, or bending forward, step out), the way the 6.0 system did. However, Sasha's second jump should have counted as a fall. She had to put all her weight on the two hands to keep from falling. It should not be necessary to hit the butt on the ice to call it a fall. This is one of the things I dislike about COP.

Vash
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
RubyNV said:
.S
I have a special hatred of the weird obsession with spiral sequences. How did they get such clout? For one thing, more and more skaters are doing very well done spirals, many of them now pulling one leg up like a flamingo, and even letting go of the skate at that point to increase the difficulty level. I am tired of seeing almost everyone doing basically the same move. For another thing, why is displaying your crotch to the world considered a beautiful artistic move? If the ladies have bodysuits on, it would at least not look like a desire to display the
panty portion of their skating dresses to the world (and by the way, a lot of the ladies are wearing what look more like thongs under their dresses). I am rather creeped out by the extended spirals of Sasha and others. I think she does this because the craze for spiral sequences started with Michelle Kwan, who was so highly ranked. People would rave about her spiral sequence, even though it always was skated exactly the same. I was really, really sick of seeing it!
There are a lot of skating moves that are being neglected these days. Bring some of those back and ditch the spiral sequence as a requirement. Variety is so much more interesting. Let's see more emphasis on doing jumps out of fancy footwork.

I too feel that the spiral sequences are a bit overdone these days. Michelle did beautiful spirals but the beauty of those spirals was not in how flexible she was but rather in how well she controlled the edge and how she put her heart into them. Before Michelle there was Nicole Bobek who had gorgeous extension on her spirals. I believe her spiral influenced/challenged Michelle to improve hers.

However, the current trend of 'see how flexible I am' started with Sasha, IMO. When she first appeared on the scene, her flexibility was impressive but soon it got old because the edge quality was not there. Since she was getting high marks from the judges because of her flexibility, and COP started giving high PCS scores, it may have encouraged others who were flexible (and those who were not) to attempt similar moves. To me, only skating is skating, meaning the important things are edges, speed, lines, posture, flow over the ice. It should not be a competition of how flexible one is. I personally feel that Shizuka does not need such spiral sequence moves because she has wonderful edges. However, if she did not show how flexible she is, she may end up getting lower marks than Sasha. I would love to see gorgeous spread eagles, and other MIFs. Sasha's wonderful Russian splits, Shizuka's Ina Bauer, Michelle's falling leaf are beautiful moves and should be rewarded. They do get some high PCS for those, but I don't know how much.

A spiral sequence cannot be dropped. It has always been a requirement for the ladies (as far as I can remember). A spiral is one of the most beautiful moves in ladies skating. I want to see it retained but the way it is being marked needs improvement.

Vash
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Gr8Sk8s said:
You're wrong. Joannie Rochette did LAND PERFECTLY (exception maybe for that scary triple salchow) 6 triple jumps and even doubled her second attemp to a triple lutz (she had 7 triples planned). Further more, she had the second best Technical Score of the night...

:bow: Way to go Joannie !! :bow:
You're right -- her sixth triple was part of a 2A SEQ 3S, which I missed when reviewing the protocols. She edged out Cohen for the second-highest technical score by .07.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Vash01 said:
It has always been a requirement for the ladies (as far as I can remember). A spiral is one of the most beautiful moves in ladies skating. I want to see it retained but the way it is being marked needs improvement.

Actually the spiral sequence was added some time after the 1988 Olympics and before the 1992 Olympics, AFAIR. Ladies had of course been doing spirals for ever, but they were completely optional before that. The fear at the time was that ladies' skating was getting too 'athletic' and there were too many jumps. There was harking back to the skating of Janet Lynn, and how skating like Janet Lynn should be encouraged. It was probably a reaction against:

1. The loss of figures, which were removed about the same time.
2. The possible coming dominance by Midori Ito, and skaters like Midori Ito, who had a complete set of triples including the triple axel.

Somewhere in there the short was lengthened from 2 minutes to 2 and a half minutes to accommodate the spiral as much as for any other reason.

At first the neither the coaches nor the skaters had a clue about what a spiral sequence should involve exactly. Some of the earlier versions aren't great. In the US, Bobek and Kerrigan developed spirals that became the patterns for later US ladies.

I wish I could pinpoint the time for you better. I know there is no spiral sequence in 1982, because I have a clip of an SP from that time frame. I know they were doing it by 1992 because Kerrigan was doing a spiral sequence at that time. Bobek as a junior was doing a sequence in 1991. Midori Ito's 1990 season program has a MITF sequence with one spiral in it. I don't think that was intended to be a spiral sequence, so my guess would be the 1991 season.

I hope someone that has the exact date will speak up!
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Sasha did attempt 7 triple jumps and got full credit for completing the rotations. But she got big negative GOEs on her Lutz (-3), which was intended to be in combination, on her flip (-2.86) and on her 3T+3S sequence (-1.14).

Together with the -1 for the fall, this is a total of 8 points lost (the equivalent of a triple toe-triple toe combination).

So I think the scoring came out OK. She was rewarded for what she did and punished for what she did badly.

MM
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Well, if she lost 8 points, I think Shiz won by nine, right? So would it not have mattered if she was clean- shiz would still win...?
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Red Dog said:
Well, if she lost 8 points, I think Shiz won by nine, right? So would it not have mattered if she was clean- shiz would still win...?

Sasha lost a total of 9.6 from the two jump misses I believe when you add the 2.8 she lost by not doing the two double jumps after the triple lutz. Then if her PCS scores were raised .3 per component that would be another 2.4. So a total of 11 potentialy.

However Shizuka doubled her triple loop. She won by over 8 points. The triple loop late in the program would have been another 3.8, plus probably atleast 0.5 in GOE since Shizuka unless Sasha gets +GOE on her jumps so another 4+ points for her. If you add 12 points for Sasha and over 4 for Shizuka Shizuka still wins.

Sasha still would have lost even with a clean performance if Shizuka had also not doubled her triple loop. On top of that Shizuka could have done a triple-triple while Sasha could not have added any more jumps and does not triple-triples anyway.

If Sasha had skated cleanly she would have won only because Shizuka doubled her triple loop.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It's hard to conjecture about how the PCS would have turned out. In the SP, with both Sasha an Shizuka skating fairly cleanly and with similar technical content, the judges gave Shizuka an average of only 7.52 in component scores, to Sasha's 7.85.

In the LP, even with Sasha making two program-interrupting mistakes, the average PCSs were close: 7.87 for Shizuka and 7.80 for Sasha.

I have a feeling that if Sasha had skated cleanly the judges were ready to give her whatever marks were necessary for the win.

MM
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Mathman said:
It's hard to conjecture about how the PCS would have turned out. In the SP, with both Sasha an Shizuka skating fairly cleanly and with similar technical content, the judges gave Shizuka an average of only 7.52 in component scores, to Sasha's 7.85.

In the LP, even with Sasha making two program-interrupting mistakes, the average PCSs were close: 7.87 for Shizuka and 7.80 for Sasha.

I have a feeling that if Sasha had skated cleanly the judges were ready to give her whatever marks were necessary for the win.

MM

I think Shizuka would have won on TES scores anyway. Her spin and step sequences scored higher than Sasha to begin with and her jumps are much higher quality and would have easily gained higher GOE scores.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I agree. However, let's remember we don't know how Shiz would have skated if Cohen skated clean. Maybe she would have done the 3-3 and had a brilliant performance, or maybe she would have succumbed to pressure. Who knows? It's that horrible X-factor again. But I'm sure this will be discussed until 2010, anyway.
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Red Dog said:
I agree. However, let's remember we don't know how Shiz would have skated if Cohen skated clean. Maybe she would have done the 3-3 and had a brilliant performance, or maybe she would have succumbed to pressure. Who knows? It's that horrible X-factor again. But I'm sure this will be discussed until 2010, anyway.

All true. Irina would have skated better had Sasha skated well and Shizuka skated more spectacularly too I believe. Her performance was tight and tenative, even aside from the mistakes, and after the 2nd mistake she allowed the remaining elements and performance level to dip further knowing the gold was gone and losing the silver as well(that and Sasha`s usual inflated PCS scores).
 

Zuranthium

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 30, 2006
RubyNV said:
Why should it matter if it is rotated all the way in the air if the person can't land it?

Because it's hard to rotate a Triple jump. Being able to rotate a Triple jump but not knowing how to land it consistently at least shows more skill than someone who can't a rotate a Triple jump at all. The problem with the rating system comes into play with Quads and 3Axles...they need to have a higher negative GOE (I'd say 1.5 and 1.2, respectively).
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Zuranthium said:
The problem with the rating system comes into play with Quads and 3Axles...they need to have a higher negative GOE (I'd say 1.5 and 1.2, respectively).
Oh, I don't agree with that at all. A fully rotated quad toe, with a fall on the landing, gets you 5.0 points after deductions. This is the same as a pretty good triple toe with a +1 GOE.

But any 12-year-old boy at the novice level can do a triple toe, whereas only a small handful of the best athletes in the sport can fully rotate a quad.

Same with the ladies and a triple Axel. Only a half dozen or so so ladies in the history of the sport have ever landed a triple Axel in competition. But every junior miss is required to do a double Axel. A triple Axel with a fall gives you 3.5, versus 3.3 for a double with 0 GOE.

I think that's about right. If anything, I would like to see the show-stopping elements rewarded even further, and I would not like to see skaters penalized too harshly for attempting them.

MM :)
 
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