Weir's image causing a ruckus at another site

new_europe2006 · Feb 28, 2006

The same people who aren't offended by the Soviet Union team jacket, would more than likely be offended if Johnny wore a Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy jacket.

As for the Che Guevara shirts, it's the same thing as wearing a Heinrich Himmler shirt since Che was the equvilent to Cuba's Himmler with him murdering people who disagreed with Castro.

Grgranny · Feb 28, 2006

Thanks. Looks to me like he does things like that for attention. So, people that get annoyed and post about it just feeds his ego. Kind of like flag burning. If people just overlooked it, they wouldn't do it.

new_europe2006 · Feb 28, 2006

Grgranny said:
Thanks. Looks to me like he does things like that for attention. So, people that get annoyed and post about it just feeds his ego. Kind of like flag burning. If people just overlooked it, they wouldn't do it.

If that was the case how come people feed attention into what neo-Nazis do?

SusanBeth · Feb 28, 2006

new_europe2006 said:
The same people who aren't offended by the Soviet Union team jacket, would more than likely be offended if Johnny wore a Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy jacket.

As for the Che Guevara shirts, it's the same thing as wearing a Heinrich Himmler shirt since Che was the equvilent to Cuba's Himmler with him murdering people who disagreed with Castro.

I think you are projecting motives and intentions that aren't involved in this at all.
These kids didn't grow up during the Cold War. It doesn't have the same emotions tied into it. To them, it truly means nothing. There is no treason or bad intent to it whatsoever. Naturally, you are free to not like it to your heart's content. That doesn't mean they are doing anything evil.

dragonfly · Feb 28, 2006

Johnny should wear whatever he wants. I'd watch him skate in a burlap sack. He's the best thing to happen to men's skating in 20 years.

new_europe2006 · Feb 28, 2006

SusanBeth said:
I think you are projecting motives and intentions that aren't involved in this at all.
These kids didn't grow up during the Cold War. It doesn't have the same emotions tied into it. To them, it truly means nothing. There is no treason or bad intent to it whatsoever. Naturally, you are free to not like it to your heart's content. That doesn't mean they are doing anything evil.

I didn't grow up during the Cold War either yet I learned all about it. Most people in the US also didn't grow up during WWII yet almost everybody in the US knows about it.

I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of being able to wear a Soviet Union jacket with no media outrage of it yet if an athlete wore a Nazi Germany team jacket, there would be outrage from the media around the world (rightfully so as well).

SusanBeth · Feb 28, 2006

I don't believe most people equate the USSR with Nazi Germany. You may and that's your right. Others don't share it. That's their right. Because they do not equate the two countries, they do not react the same way to it. There is no hypocrisy involved. There is a difference of opinion.

julietvalcouer · Feb 28, 2006

SusanBeth said:
I don't believe most people equate the USSR with Nazi Germany. You may and that's your right. Others don't share it. That's their right. Because they do not equate the two countries, they do not react the same way to it. There is no hypocrisy involved. There is a difference of opinion.

Maybe not hypocrisy, but a bizarre, willful, even, willingness to overlook the millions of people murdered by the Soviet Union. It's not a matter of "Oh, we were at odds with them." It's a matter of at least twenty million people killed. Six million Ukrainians alone were murdered in an engineered famine. Sure, the USSR doesn't exist as a political entity any more, but so what? I mean, Nazi Germany doesn't exist any more, either, but it's still not cool to wear swastikas and death's heads and SS lightning patches because several million people are still dead. Maybe because the Western left politicians and academics always made excuses for the Soviet Union and Communism in general some people think it wasn't as bad, but it was if anything worse than Nazi Germany. Saying that kids don't understand means they should be educated, not that they should be allowed to use mass-murdering dictatorships as fashion statements without expecting flak.

mike79 · Feb 28, 2006

No offense to anyone but equating the Nazis with the USSR is outright ridiculous. For one they had COMPLETELY opposite political ideologies. Nazism was fueled by hate and a lack of respect for other cultures, communism, although having some inherent flaws (although so does capitalism) is not. Two, let's look at history. The USSR and the US ended the Cold War with a mutual respect, even friendship between Reagan (originally an ardent anti-communist) and Gorbachev (a man who moved the USSR to a path toward a more democratic society, although not quite the way he envisioned it). To me, saying that it was wrong for him to wear the jacket on the basis of any Cold War rhetoric is living in the past.

People should never forget what the USSR did to its own people. That was, however, one period under Stalin. Yes they maintained the gulags, etc, but by the 1980s things did seem to be improving. What if someone decided to wear a Chinese jacket? Does that mean that they support the Tiannaman Square atrocities? Not at all. And let's be completely fair. It's not like the US hasn't committed its fair share of human rights violations. The same thing goes for Canada. I don't think we're ashamed to wear jackets from these countries.

I don't know if he's trying to make any political statement or just a fashion statement. Whatever the case is, he likes the jacket. It does have a certain style that is pretty cool looking.

orchid · Feb 28, 2006

The point is that Johnny acquired the CCCP jacket before the games began.
Traditionally, the exchange of athletic attire begins at the closing ceremonies.

At least, publically, meaning he managed a Kodak moment before the games began wearing a Russian garment.

I think a poor choice of timing.

SusanBeth · Feb 28, 2006

julietvalcouer said:
Maybe not hypocrisy, but a bizarre, willful, even, willingness to overlook the millions of people murdered by the Soviet Union. It's not a matter of "Oh, we were at odds with them." It's a matter of at least twenty million people killed. Six million Ukrainians alone were murdered in an engineered famine. Sure, the USSR doesn't exist as a political entity any more, but so what? I mean, Nazi Germany doesn't exist any more, either, but it's still not cool to wear swastikas and death's heads and SS lightning patches because several million people are still dead. Maybe because the Western left politicians and academics always made excuses for the Soviet Union and Communism in general some people think it wasn't as bad, but it was if anything worse than Nazi Germany. Saying that kids don't understand means they should be educated, not that they should be allowed to use mass-murdering dictatorships as fashion statements without expecting flak.

Flak away, but I don't buy into it at all. You can project all this meaning onto it. In fact, you have to, because none of it is coming from the kids. They have not killed. They aren't supporting killers. Intent matters, and there is no evil intent to wearing these things. I think you are condemning the innocent and calling it just. No one is overlooking the past, they are just moving forward. You are looking back. Obviously, you aren't seeing the same things.

For these kids, the CCCP shirt means nothing significant. I actually think that might be strange, sweet revenge.

Lanie · Feb 28, 2006

What bugged me abut the CCCP jacket is he was wearing it AT OLYMPIC PRACTICE WHILE REPRESENTING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. At the OLYMPICS. Representing NOT Russia, NOT the USSR, but the USA. That's what bothered me. If he wore it elsewhere I wouldn't really care--but at the Olympics...that annoyed me.

Alsace · Feb 28, 2006

ITA; ambassor of good-will is fine, but that went too far.

geoskate · Mar 1, 2006

I thought the US was a free country? No one here in Canada would object. Weir could wear whatever he wants here.

Ladskater, please don't speak for all Canadians. I found Johnny's jacket offensive, as I posted in the original thread. For me it's not the CCCP part, it is that he was wearing it during an official practice when he is supposed to be representing his country.

To put it into terms that might mean more for Canadians, what would people in Canada think if Clara Hughes or Cindy Klassen has been wearing USA uniforms during the speed-skating practice sessions? I think that Canadians would not be impressed with behaviour like that. Obviously, it would have nothing to do with it being a USA uniform, but rather than in the practice sessions they are supposed to be representing Canada.

Outside of the practice sessions I think they could wear whatever they liked, but not when they are officially representing their country.

ladysarahchatto · Mar 1, 2006

Johar said:
I am tempted to get in there and defend him, but that won't change people's mind. It started with a ruckus over his CCCP jacket. This ruckus is at a non-skating board.

I am tempted to post the URL to the 160+ posts over him.

Did any of you find his CCCP jacket offensive?

I'm not offended in the least. I grew up during the last years of the Cold War. I miss seeing those team uniforms with CCCP emblazoned across the back.

ladysarahchatto · Mar 1, 2006

SusanBeth said:
I think you are projecting motives and intentions that aren't involved in this at all.
These kids didn't grow up during the Cold War. It doesn't have the same emotions tied into it. To them, it truly means nothing. There is no treason or bad intent to it whatsoever. Naturally, you are free to not like it to your heart's content. That doesn't mean they are doing anything evil.

Exactly. I remember Maria Butyrskaya wore a CCCP top at a skating exhibition on tv. That was her country. It's where she was born. For Johnny, he has made it clear he is a Russia fan.

Originally Posted by julietvalcouer
Maybe not hypocrisy, but a bizarre, willful, even, willingness to overlook the millions of people murdered by the Soviet Union. It's not a matter of "Oh, we were at odds with them." It's a matter of at least twenty million people killed. Six million Ukrainians alone were murdered in an engineered famine. Sure, the USSR doesn't exist as a political entity any more, but so what? I mean, Nazi Germany doesn't exist any more, either, but it's still not cool to wear swastikas and death's heads and SS lightning patches because several million people are still dead. Maybe because the Western left politicians and academics always made excuses for the Soviet Union and Communism in general some people think it wasn't as bad, but it was if anything worse than Nazi Germany. Saying that kids don't understand means they should be educated, not that they should be allowed to use mass-murdering dictatorships as fashion statements without expecting flak.

The same could be said about the USA. Untold numbers of African and African-American Slaves died or lived their entire lives under bondage in the States barely over a century and half ago. And that is not counting African-Americans who were murdered by the KKK particularly in Southern States, there were the Japanese-Americans forced into internment camps in the 1940s, and many more were mistreated and all perfectly within the laws of the times. And that was well into the 1960's. My Native American friends could tell a tale or two about the mistreatment and yes government-sanctioned murder of their ancestors. No government or country with great power can say they have not been guilty of abusing entire groups of peoples at some point in their history.

Taan · Mar 1, 2006

Johar said:
I am tempted to get in there and defend him, but that won't change people's mind. It started with a ruckus over his CCCP jacket. This ruckus is at a non-skating board.

I am tempted to post the URL to the 160+ posts over him.

Did any of you find his CCCP jacket offensive?

please post a link!! or i refuse to believe your claim that non-skating fans would post 160+ replies about Johnny Weir!!!!

blackrose050 · Mar 1, 2006

I'm not offended by it, because he didn't mean anything by it. I fully believe that he was absolutely NOT making an intentional political statement.

Besides, the jacket was a gift from a friend. I think I heard it was a birthday gift from Tatiana Totmianina (though I could be mistaken about that), and that it was perhaps a sort of good luck charm.
And as someone already said, it's a trend. And Johnny Weir is nothing if not fashionable. :laugh:

That doesn't necessarily EXCUSE wearing it (like I said, it wasn't wise), but Johnny wouldn't understand people finding the jacket to be the equivalent of the Nazi symbol, because the jacket doesn't hold that same meaning to him. To him it doesn't represent mass murders committed by the Soviet Union; it's just a jacket from Russia. And he loves Russia. There IS no deeper significance.
I think that it's good for people to explain to Johnny WHY the jacket would be viewed as offensive, so he can understand that. But I don't think it should be such a big deal, just IMO.

FauveNik · Mar 1, 2006

orchid said:
The point is that Johnny acquired the CCCP jacket before the games began.
Traditionally, the exchange of athletic attire begins at the closing ceremonies.

At least, publically, meaning he managed a Kodak moment before the games began wearing a Russian garment.

I think a poor choice of timing.

I must agree here. If Jonny wore a Russia jacket that too would cause an uproar. lets face it,, he is an American and should have worn his own jacket. As it is the Team he is representing. Does not really matter that the CCCP is no longer in exisistance, or that it was a gift, in practice your seen. It was politically the wrong choice. As I said before its just a mode thing, I have the shirt, big deal, It was the mode here 2 years ago! He could wear it Anywhere Else he wanted but to wear it onto the Ice and knowing he IS an American, Representing the American team For America, I do feel he made a bad choice there. I personally was not offended but I could see where people would be! Lets put it this way, that would never be tolerated on our French team if one of them wore another countries name on their chest during Olympic practice. we are a free country too, but there is politically correct and then there is not.
JMO
Fauve

julietvalcouer · Mar 1, 2006

If that's the attitude people have, we owe Germany, Italy, and Japan WHOPPING huge apologies for World War II and the Nuremberg trials. Because hey, all countries do bad things. (Ask the Koreans or Chinese how they'd feel about Japan saying "Hey, everyone does it." Especially the Koreans. Just don't say I didn't warn you.) And neither the slave trade (which America hardly started as it didn't even exist) nor Japanese internment camps are equatable with what the Soviet Union did, before, during, and after Stalin. The tendency to say "oh, it was all Stalin and before and after him it was just a worker's paradise" is naive at best. Think that there's a moral equivalency if you want. Some of us know better.

And I'm surprised there isn't a rule at the Olympics about wearing official team clothing. It seems as though that could cause confusion in addition to political faux pas if someone started wearing team jackets from extant countries.

Weir's image causing a ruckus at another site

new_europe2006

Grgranny

Da' Spellin' Homegirl

new_europe2006

SusanBeth

dragonfly

new_europe2006

SusanBeth

julietvalcouer

mike79

orchid

SusanBeth

Lanie

Alsace

geoskate

ladysarahchatto

ladysarahchatto

Taan

blackrose050

FauveNik

julietvalcouer

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