COI Ice Review / Rant / Slanted Opinion

Dee4707 said:

I guess when I asked the question what does a skater who makes a connection do that is different? I really don't see a difference and wondered this for quite a while. I think with all your comments, there is no difference, it's what you as a person wants to feel or see.


Now that's what moves me. When Alexei skated Man in the Iron Mask, it was his beautiful perfomance that made it subjective for me as well with Johnny's Otonal program. I guess I don't have a need to feel a connection with any skater except through their performance. Again, it;s just my opinion that it;s what an individual wants to feel from that skater.

Dee

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I think the the Alexei/Johnny comparison is a really good comparison. I must say that i agree with MM's analysis of the two as performers and their connection to the audience. With Alexei he lets his emotion come through in his skating - his man in the iron mask was probably my favourite program. Everytime he skated it he did it with emotion and he was emoting all the way to the people in the nosebleed seats. Even at Europeans where the title wasn't as important and the occassion not as big as the Olympics, he still emoted all the way through. He makes you fell like he lets you catch glimmers of his personality and his emotion when he skates - like MM said - like he's skating personally for you. You can see the emotion on his face.

With Weir - he skates beautifully but with a totally blank look on his face - he could be skating on a practice session rather than at a competition for all you can tell in his face. He doesn't emote in his programs, he doesn't give any facial expressions that draw you in and make you feel like he's letting you get to know him. In that respect i think of Weir as being a little like Maria Butyrskaya (not just because of Otonal!) but because i also think she skated beautifully but with very little emotion - again with a very blank expression on her face.

My comments are in no way meant as a criticism of Weir - i adore his skating, but as with his public persona - he's very careful to show the public and the skating audience only what he wants to show them and does not get lost in the moment. I get the impression Alexei is too much of an emotional person that he couldn't hide it even if he tried.

Ant

Mathman said:

I have to say that I do not fully subscribe to the view that art appreciation is entirely on the side of the viewer. There is, for instance, a reason why people have a different reaction to Beethoven's violin concerto than to Mendelssohn's.

I think this can be understood, analyzed and even quantified from the score itself, without mentioning the ideosyncrasies of the listener.

That doesn't mean that one work is "better" than the other, just that it is possible to come to objective conclusions about their differences.

IMHO performing artists are the same. I think there are objective qualities to their performances that affect the reaction of the audience. Otherwise, how could there be art at all? ("I'll just go out there and do any old thing -- some people will like me, some won't.")

JMO

Mathman

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This is straying into the rather philosopchical now!!!

I tend to agree with Red Dog though that things that appeal to people as "beautiful" or "artisitc" are totally subjective, you can sometimes attempt to quantify them but the standards that you use to quantify things like that tend to start straying into the subjective anyway.

Sometimes pack mentality makes something en vogue and before you know it a large number of people are claiming it to be the best thing ever and no amount of arguing will change that. I expect many detractors of Kwan feel this way about her skating and her legend status. For the record that is one i agree with.

Taking a step back outside of the skating world and say into the world of art - for me personally cutting an animal in half and having the two halves in a tank is not a beautiful or particularly worthwhile piece of art. I hold my hands up to being somewhat ignorant of "standards" involved in judging the beauty or worthiness of art and feel that a lot of modern art but all it takes is a group of well known art critics to start hailing the dead animal as the most amazing peice of art and whole lot of unthinking people are going to carry on that view until suddenly it becomes "fact".

Ant

I disagree with RD. There are two different major styles in musical performance which are carried over into other Arts. Those styles are Lyrical and Bravura. These styles have already been acknowledged as the standards in the performing Arts. Of course, there is the fine tuning of both these styles, and a good performer can use both styles in one performance.

In the case of Weir v. Yagudin. Johnny's lyricism is way ahead of Alexei's bravura approach. It's not that Alexei is not musical; it's that he uses his virtuosity to ensure that the audience is getting what it paid for and often he will ham it up.

Johnny, on the other hand, will only care whether the audience is pleased with his peformance after the program has ended. He's much to busy skating to the musical composition and hoping the audience understands his interpretation. He does not wish to 'sell it' to the audience.

It is not subjective. It is a choice of the viewer to prefer one or the other styles which are quite obvious. It has nothing to do with being a fan of a particular skater (that is another matter).

An intelligent viewer (one who forgets the fan thing) will judge in their minds which of the two is doing his thing the best when they are on the same program. The question is: does Yags reach his audience better than Johnny attracts his audience.

I think this is not just my opinion.

Joe

Joesitz said:

I disagree with RD. There are two different major styles in musical performance which are carried over into other Arts. Those styles are Lyrical and Bravura. These styles have already been acknowledged as the standards in the performing Arts. Of course, there is the fine tuning of both these styles, and a good performer can use both styles in one performance.

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Joe - what characteristics apply to a lyrical performance and which apply to bravura? I'm not that up to scratch with musical terminology and have always struggled to understand what people mean by lyrical in terms of a skating performance. Who do you think can perform both lyrical and bravaura styles in the same performance...based on what you've written below i'm thinking Kwan on the basis that some of her performances seem both introspective and purely musical and then there's the sell it to the nosebleed seats in the form of things like the COE spiral...is that about right? If so is there anyone else you think gets both styles across?

Joesitz said:

In the case of Weir v. Yagudin. Johnny's lyricism is way ahead of Alexei's bravura approach. It's not that Alexei is not musical; it's that he uses his virtuosity to ensure that the audience is getting what it paid for and often he will ham it up.

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Now you see based purely on his elligible programs (i've not seen any SOI or exhibitions and you can't believe how disappointed i am in him if he's taken over the worthless person who takes his top off and flirts with an audience member :disapp: ) it think there was element of hamming (goodness he played air violin in one of his programs ...yak!) but the part of his programs that really appeal to me is not the hamming - i have to look past that its the genuine emotion - the love of skating that comes through - i don't get that from Johnny - and the look on his face when he skates is like - this is my job not what i love.

Joesitz said:

Johnny, on the other hand, will only care whether the audience is pleased with his peformance after the program has ended. He's much to busy skating to the musical composition and hoping the audience understands his interpretation. He does not wish to 'sell it' to the audience.

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In which case has he failed if the audience do not understand his interpretation? I adored his SP this season and followed his interpretation of the music all the way through - to me its one of my favourite LPs of all time, of any skater. The LP, however, left me cold. It might be that i've never seen him skate it clean and the fact he makes mistakes means he doesn't perform it how he can, but i found it very detached and cold. Some of the skating in it was truly beauitful but it wasn't the start to end journey that the SP was...was that just me not getting his interpretation of his LP or genuinely did he not do as good a job at taking the audience through it as he did with his SP?

Joesitz said:

It is not subjective. It is a choice of the viewer to prefer one or the other styles which are quite obvious. It has nothing to do with being a fan of a particular skater (that is another matter).

An intelligent viewer (one who forgets the fan thing) will judge in their minds which of the two is doing his thing the best when they are on the same program. The question is: does Yags reach his audience better than Johnny attracts his audience.

I think this is not just my opinion.

Joe

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But does everyone love both styles equally. From your descriptions of them i don't know where what i describe as "emotion" falls because to me its genuine emotion not acting or hamming. I find very little emotion in Cohen's skating - you see her plaster her performance face on when she takes the ice and it disappears once she's finished holding the ending pose. Plushcenko is another who i think switches all emotion off and plasters a "game face" on for his performances.

In contrast some of the skaters who i think bring genuine emotion and what seems like real glimpses at their love of skating are Yags, Kwan, Lambiel, Slutskaya. You are left in no doubt through the performance that they love it, really love it.

And as to the question of whether yags reaches his audience better than Jonny attracts his audience...doesn't that hinge subjectively as to how many audience members are only ever going to like one style over the other? Arguably Yags style will always be more of crowd pleaser than Weir's style will be which might have a tendancy to alienate some audience members because its not so "in your face" as the yags style? I personally really enjoy Weir's skating but think there is a contrast in his ability to perform compared to Yags who i think consistenly did very well with his programs.

Ant

Michelle goes out on the ice and showcases herself. It's not about music. It's not about a theme. It's all about Michelle. And it's fabulous. I like knowing Michelle. I like being on her journry. I'm laughing and crying and feeling whatever Michelle is feeling. The downs are just as important as the ups because this is a person's life we are watching unfold. The emotion comes from Michelle. Very few skaters are this way though. Irina is but she doesn't have the same personality (or line or stretch but does have more speed and jump height) as Michelle so it seems different but it's not. They both share themselves and whatever part of their life journey is happening at the time they take the ice. I always consider Michelle like Sally Field or perhaps Julia Roberts. Greatness but no matter how different the character it's the performer who is affecting my heart. It's not really about the character.

Sasha has the ability to take me into the world of her preformance. She's not usually Sasha out there. She's a dancer enticing me to listen to the music and see how the movements and music are a team. She's telling me a story and I get lost into it until a dramatic mistake takes me out of the story and back into my world where I'm watching beautiful Sasha regroup. I think it's like watching a play where an actor does something dramatically out of character and then goes back into character expecting the audience to forget. I can usually get back into her performance but a lot of people can't. Sometimes Sasha can't get back into the performance either.

When I watch Johnny skate I'm watching Johnny and not a story being told but unlike with Michelle and Irina I'm not feeling what the skater is feeling. Johnny is dicovering himself in his performance. It's very personal for him. Some times I feel like I shouldn't be watching-like I'm intruding on a private or perhaps even secret dance. Johnny should never ever ever allow himself to start thinking in his performance. It's throws the whole thing off. It's still beautiful to watch but it doesn't feel the same because Johnny is now not feeling but he's pretending too. Pretense doesn't work for him on the ice.

tarotx said:

Sasha has the ability to take me into the world of her preformance. She's not usually Sasha out there. She's a dancer enticing me to listen to the music and see how the movements and music are a team. She's telling me a story and I get lost into it until a dramatic mistake takes me out of the story and back into my world where I'm watching beautiful Sasha regroup. I think it's like watching a play where an actor does something dramatically out of character and then goes back into character expecting the audience to forget. I can usually get back into her performance but a lot of people can't. Sometimes Sasha can't get back into the performance either. .

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Tarotx, what a wonderful explanation. You said what I was unable to articulate. I think my evaluations are always based on how the skater skates, not so much what they (the skater is feeling or attempting to portray on the ice).

Math, even though Alexei is my all time favorite skater I judge him sometimes very harshly. I expect great things from him and when he competed his skate was filled with emotion and good technical skills. Now, as an SOI entertainer I am not so pleased with his pandering, if you will. I feel like I am being robbed of a skater who can do so much more than wiggle his hips (even as nice as they are).

Dee

I never understood that phenomenon. I find it rather strange, actually. But it's still interesting to read how one feels when a skater is skating.

I think it's rare to find genuine emotion come out of an SP or FS. I find that I see that more in exhibition pieces. The skaters just seem to loosen up and have more fun out there. During an SP or FS most just seem too tense (to me). MK and IS are probably the only ones who can really seem to get into a competitive performance (and even that is rare. I've only seen MK do it once- in her 03 Nationals FS). Note that that's just how I see it.

Dee4707 said:

Math, even though Alexei is my all time favorite skater I judge him sometimes very harshly. I expect great things from him and when he competed his skate was filled with emotion and good technical skills. Now, as an SOI entertainer I am not so pleased with his pandering, if you will. I feel like I am being robbed of a skater who can do so much more than wiggle his hips (even as nice as they are).

Dee

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I understand what you are saying. I think the emotion is still there, but Alexie's body is what limits him as far as technical skills go. Now he's just aiming to entertain the crowd, hip wiggling and all, and get them to come back to the show. I LOVE seeing him live, even if it's just SOI. I find his footwork sections so exciting. I think he expresses himself and uses his entire body, better than just about any eligible man skater today.

Red Dog said:

I think it's rare to find genuine emotion come out of an SP or FS. I find that I see that more in exhibition pieces. The skaters just seem to loosen up and have more fun out there. During an SP or FS most just seem too tense (to me). MK and IS are probably the only ones who can really seem to get into a competitive performance (and even that is rare. I've only seen MK do it once- in her 03 Nationals FS). Note that that's just how I see it.

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Very rare indeed. (However, I would add Michelle's 2003 Worlds LP, 2004 Nationals LP and 2004 Worlds SP to the list.)

The key, IMHO, is to incorporate the highlight elements -- jumps, especially -- into the flow of the program. These elements are so technically demanding that it is rare to see a program where they come out of the choreography with just that right juxtaposition of wonderful surprise and artistic inevitability.

In fact, overall I think this is easier to attain in the short program than in the long. Many of Michelle's SPs, whether they grab us emotionally or not, are just perfect diamonds of aesthetic composition.

In the LP, with 7 required jumping passes and 4 required spins (all of which must be designed to maximize the point total, even at the expense of the artistic statement that the skaters are trying to make), most skaters are content -- and properly so -- with just keeping the shiny side down.

In fact, to me the best moment of many long programs is when the skater hits that last jump and knows that all she has left is some footwork and a spin. That's when she can really let go and share that adrenalin rush with the audience as we all go crazy together!

All-time great example -- Michelle's Red Violin, 2000 Worlds. When she hit that last jump and came blazing around the corner, it was like Willie Mays rounding third, digging for the plate, scoring from first on a single to right!

Here comes the throw!! Slide, Willy, slide!!!!!!

MM

MK only got into her Nats 04 FS for the last 30 seconds of the program (IMO). But before that it was all business. It's funny to hear MK make fun of the "stone faces" at the Olympics during her "View" appearance because I think she's actually had most of the classic ones, lol. Although I would say that Cohen is quickly catching up to her there.

Yeah, but there was something thrilling about that stone-faced (read "game faced"), all business performance, too. Remember, Michelle was the fading star, Sasha was coming on strong (Sasha was ahead after the short program). Michelle was the underdog. Michelle was through. Everyone was ready to read her requiem....

And then...boom, triple Lutz double toe! Boom, triple flip (or whatever was next). Boom, triple Salchow! Boom, bam, pow! Take that! And that!

If you don't like my Willy Mays analogy, it was Mohammed Ali coming back against Joe Frazier.

"If you can beat me, beat THIS!!!!"

MM

Antmanb - You questioned a lot and those questions are valid. As you know we are not talking about favorites. I will have to get back to you on all this as I have a heavy weekend of mixed bravura and lyrical musicales.

I just want you to keep in mind that we all love apples and organges. They are both fruit, both tasty, both sweet, BUT different. It's ok to prefer one over the other.

Joe

As much as I love Michelle's Tosca LP at Nationals, how can you leave off Nats. Lyra Angelica and Worlds Salome??? Talk about emotional!

Maybe a bit off topic...

RD has a point, a weak one, but a point.

I have watched many competitions Live and on TV and when a competitor is ON: They emote a heluva lot more than they do in a silly exhibition. Just to name a few which I saw LIVE and those emotions involved audience reaction:

Shen and Zhao in 2003 Worlds; Similarly Michelle Kwan. Sasha in Dortmund QR.2004. Alissa Czisney in Skate Canada 2004. Elena Sokolova in Calgary LP 2005;

On TV both Oksana and Nancy were on in that same competition. Of course there are many others - all in competition and, imo, much better than in exhibitions.

You don't have to WIN a competition to thrill the audience (but it helps.)

getting back to RD. Some exhibitions have been inspiring but never as much as in the moment of truth in an international competition.

Joe

I get what youare saying and you're right: there's nothing better than living in the moment you realize you just did your absolute best, what you've worked your whole life for. We see these skates, whether it's Michelle Nats. 2004, Shiz 2004 Worlds LP, Sasha 2004 Worlds SP/2006 Olympic SP, Kimmie Worlds 2006 LP, and countless of others. The emotions that come with the whole "thrill of victory" doesn't stop with the skater, but is shared with the audience.

But that's not the point- this thread went the way of discussing differetn exhibitions, what connecting with an audience means. Selling an exhibitions VS a competitive program-I think it's 2 completely different things. The really good performers can do both. I think Kurt, Kristi, Michelle, Alexie, Irina fit in this category.

Joesitz said:

I just want you to keep in mind that we all love apples and organges. They are both fruit, both tasty, both sweet, BUT different. It's ok to prefer one over the other.

Joe

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Well said!!!!!!!

Joesitz said:

Antmanb - You questioned a lot and those questions are valid. As you know we are not talking about favorites. I will have to get back to you on all this as I have a heavy weekend of mixed bravura and lyrical musicales.

I just want you to keep in mind that we all love apples and organges. They are both fruit, both tasty, both sweet, BUT different. It's ok to prefer one over the other.

Joe

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Only jus catching up on the forum having been away for a week!

My questions about the styles were genuine questions because i don't think i fully grasp the differences between the two. I tried to keep fandom out of it and my analysis of Yags and Weir's skating was my attempt at applying some of the criteria i think apply to Bravura performances as opposed to lyrical ones, i don't think they were coloured with fandom since i like both skaters equally.

Ant

Joesitz said:

I disagree with RD. There are two different major styles in musical performance which are carried over into other Arts. Those styles are Lyrical and Bravura. These styles have already been acknowledged as the standards in the performing Arts. Of course, there is the fine tuning of both these styles, and a good performer can use both styles in one performanceJoe

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In ballet, I normally prefer lyrical over bravura. Gelsey Kirkland could dance both styles very well. She was firey and precise in "Don Q" and a floating dream in "The Leaves Are Fading." Kirkland was fabulous...there will never be another like her.

As for "snow globe" performances, I like them. I like being given a glimpse into something so intimate between the skater/music/choreography. Maybe I've seen too much Balanchine choreography (and I luuuuuv Balanchine.) For Balanchine, the music was the thing. The choreography/steps were there to come alive within and serve the music. That's why he never gave his dancers explantions of "what" a certain ballet might "be" about. He didn't want his dancers to "be" anything. He just wanted their interpretation of the steps in connection to what they were feeling in the music.

It doesn't bother me so much, if a skater doesn't "sell" the program to the top of the rafters. I'd rather see the skater deep within the world of the music. If they do that, and do it well, that's where the real artistry comes into play for me. If they can do both, then so much the better...

The more personal the performance becomes, the more it draws me in.

Along the same lines, I have a hard time watching celebrities like Jennifer Anniston, Julia Roberts and Tom Cruise in their movies, because I can't forget for one moment that I'm watching "them". I never get into the character they are playing, because I always feel like they are just playing themselves...

I guess it really does come down to personal tastes.

Kwan is a very talented, graceful skater, but her performances have never drawn me in. I don't "see" her program, I just see her being Michelle (but I also understand that that's why the majority of the public adore her.) The same goes for S&P. Other other hand, I could watch B&S, Wier, Sasha, and Sandu forever, because they make me "see" the music...

It's definatley a case of "to each, their own!"

nubka said:

Kwan is a very talented, graceful skater, but her performances have never drawn me in. I don't "see" her program, I just see her being Michelle (but I also understand that that's why the majority of the public adore her.) The same goes for S&P. Other other hand, I could watch B&S, Wier, Sasha, and Sandu forever, because they make me "see" the music...

It's definatley a case of "to each, their own!"

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It definately is a case of to each his own. I feel the exact opposite as you do about the skaters you mentioned.