Music, what do you want to hear?

Joesitz said:

Except for a very few skaters, dealing with the music as a musical piece is not easy in the early ages. They are basically training for skating tricks and do not train those tricks to the music. Every thing a young ballet dancer trains for is with the music constantly. Young skaters, unfortunately, don't get the music while training except for repititious insignificant background tunes. So when they are faced with a program, they have no clue that their music is important. It's the tricks that count.

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I would think that only really bad coaches would do this. Even the little ice princesses at my rink who are struggling with their doubles hve to reptitively do their programs over and over again to their music. Once the skaters "get" an element the coach then puts into a series of connected moves which the sklaters then repeat constantly when they do the element. You rarely see the girls just hammering away at their doubles its nearly always small segments of their programs.

The junior national champ who trains some of the time at my rink already has her program music sorted...she's barely got enough program choreographed to practice it so she does the snippets they've done exactly on time with the music and at the moment you can see her building up her confidence in the choreography so that she starts doing the elemtns to the music not despite of it.

I think all the girsl at our rink are taught this way - i'd have thought most are.

Ant

I disagree with Joesitz on keeping a beat. I don't think that is an issue for,
1. there is beat in all music used already.
2. It is not a matter of keeping the beet but keeping with, isn't it all a matter of timing? "moment or emphasis on crescendos" as such.
3. Change in little "bites" can be good.
4. Free program music selections are exactly the music that could be incorporated. Thus proving the "new" music discussed is already "skate-able" just not practiced / worked into programs.

So IMO, if they aren't trying then the evolution of "new" music will never be incorporated. How can you develop without trying to work with it.

Plus, Why no Lyrics, even Latin or Italian "classical pieces?

seanibu said:

Humbling submitting my opinion -

I disagree with Joesitz (sorry I highly respect you) on keeping a beat. I don't think that is an issue for,

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Seanibu - You are ok to correct me anytime. And I will give you my reply.
Not everyone is inherently musical and especially young kids. Of course there are always exceptions when you see that toddler beating out a tune with a stick or a little older kid gyrating to the music that he/she is listening to.

How many kids did you know when you were growing up taking piano lessons and then stopped when they realized they just didn't have it? Yet there were a few who were not musical but became good pianists because they continued all those exercises.

Now I just want to emphasize that not all skaters are inherently musical, but those who are not, and continue to work at it, arrive at a degree of success.

From my view, few skaters show their musicality, and using those old warhorse musical selections give them a beat they can skate to. It just doesn't do it for me, but if you see all those beats and rhythms in most skaters, that's ok.

Most fans will see a major jump sequence as the stunning move rather than the flow of the music. Some skaters that are not technical gifted do have musical abilities on the ice. Your Jenny Kirk was quite musical.

Joe

Ant - I have no reason to disagree with you. What I was trying to say was that by the time the choreographer gets the job, he/she has a lot of work to get the music instilled in that skater if the skater did not skate to some music on his/her own. If the skater is musical, the choreography falls into place much easier.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Your Jenny Kirk was quite musical.

Joe

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Can I just revel in the thought of that being literally true just for one minute (insert Homer Simpson emotioncon leaning head back and drooling) J•e•n•n•y

- I note the "roll eye doesn't roll so he looks as though he is pondering a thought.



Yes very musical, Million Dollar Baby was so on. (insert swooning emotioncon)

So the one's that are "rhythm endowed" could skate to "new" and the ones that aren't would be "classical music" selections? Maybe an unfair advantage, yet if you have more of a "broadened gift" (skating and musical talent) you are in a sence more gifted IMO. I know that isn't nice, but realistic.

Added thought - Michelle Kwan to me is still the most "rhythm endowed" ladies skater (still suprised how far off the end she was on Bolero - and still got 6.0:scratch: :disagree: ), and would have to give Engie Pushinko the male. JAT IMO.

Seanibu- criticize me but don't put words in my mouth. Skaters can skate to any music they want as long as there is no vocal. The beats in carmen are all very definite and the less musical skaters can utilize music like it is a metronome.

Now I'm over and out with this topic.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Seanibu- criticize me but don't put words in my mouth.

Now I'm over and out with this topic.

Joe

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:scratch:

:agree:
Still can't figure out what the heck you are talking about. 2 others have reviewed this and their feedback was my interpretation may have been offensive saying skaters that are more musical AND still have the tech (being "bravada or lyrical") are endowed with more talent. Anyway sorry to get Joe bothered.

Still would like to have a better understanding of why the music is not allowed to have Lyrics - as stated before - even classical Latin, German, Italian....etc.?
I just don't see how the Vienna Boys Choir singing Ave Maria would make a difference over a non choral version?

seanibu said:

... my interpretation may have been offensive saying skaters that are more musical AND still have the tech (being "bravada or lyrical") are endowed with more talent.

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? To me, that seems self-evidently true. What could be offensive about that?

seanibu said:

Still would like to have a better understanding of why the music is not allowed to have Lyrics - as stated before - even classical Latin, German, Italian....etc.?

I just don't see how the Vienna Boys Choir singing Ave Maria would make a difference over a non choral version?

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I agree, that's a mystery. I have a feeling that the only reason for the restriction is tradition. We never did it that way before, durned if we're going to start doing it now.

They did relax the prohibition against vocals in dance. I don't know exactly what the new rules allow and don't allow.

For singles skating, I think they also loosened up to the extent that you can have voices singing la-la-la as long as there aren't any actual words.

One thing I don't like about vocal music, though, is that it kind of sets up a competition between the singer and the skater for the audience's attention.

For the same reason, I notice that no one ever choses wind concertos. I'd like to see Buttle do the Haydn trumpet concerto in E-flat, and I would love to see Michelle skate to the Mozart oboe concerto in C. :yes: But by the time the instrumentalist gives his/her interpretation of the the copmposer's intent, and then the choreographer gives his/her interpretation of the composer and the soloist, and then the skater gives his/her interpretation of the interpretation of the interpretation -- that's a little too much going on, IMHO.

MM

Mathman said:

? To me, that seems self-evidently true. What could be offensive about that?I agree, that's a mystery. I have a feeling that the only reason for the restriction is tradition. We never did it that way before, durned if we're going to start doing it now.

They did relax the prohibition against vocals in dance. I don't know exactly what the new rules allow and don't allow.

For singles skating, I think they also loosened up to the extent that you can have voices singing la-la-la as long as there aren't any actual words.

One thing I don't like about vocal music, though, is that it kind of sets up a competition between the singer and the skater for the audience's attention.

For the same reason, I notice that no one ever choses wind concertos. I'd like to see Buttle do the Haydn trumpet concerto in E-flat, and I would love to see Michelle skate to the Mozart oboe concerto in C. :yes: But by the time the instrumentalist gives his/her interpretation of the the copmposer's intent, and then the choreographer gives his/her interpretation of the composer and the soloist, and then the skater gives his/her interpretation of the interpretation of the interpretation -- that's a little too much going on, IMHO.

MM

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I'm kind of happy about the ban in lyrics for singles skating otherwise the danger is that we would end up with skaters skating to generic ballads like they often do for exhibitions which frankly is a little boring, or even worse have Sandra Bezic pick up on one line of a song and whoreograph programs (yes i'm thinking of monstrosity she whoreographed for Yamaguchi to Rob Thomas and Santana's Smooth)!!

I like the relaxation of the rule allowing for vocals where the voice is used "as an instrument". Although the recording was awful, i quite like the Sarah Brightman track that Butyrskaya used for an SP one season. On the topic why did every track Maria skated to sound like it had been recorded using a dictaphone pressed up against a too loud speaker?!

Ant

Let's keep the warhorse musics going on strong. But don't lecture me on artistry, please. That's what music is all about. Not Bielman spins. However, if fans go beserk with the usual Carmen rendition, let it be. It bores me to tears and I wont change. Who has the best Carmen? Who cares? The only way I could answer that would not be a skater, but Rita Hayworth or Dorothy Dandridge were good Carmens. I haven't found that level of artistry in figure skating.

Joe

Fumie and Irina to Marriage of Figaro. O.K. My brain just exploded.
Is there a version without lyrics? I don't remember anyone ever skating to that, must be that there is not a non-lyric version.

Goldfinger

I sent Jen Don the movie & the music. Wouldn't she be a great golden bond girl!

Michelle- Rhapsody on a Theme of Pagannini, Samson et Delilah, Warsaw Concerto

Sasha- Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto number one

Angela Nikodinov-Clare de Lune

Plushenko- Pictures of an exhibition

Berezhaya and Sikheridlidze- Bruce Springsteen's Thunder Road

Ina and Zimmerman - Born to Run

Eeyora said:

Michelle- Rhapsody on a Theme of Pagannini, Samson et Delilah, Warsaw Concerto

Sasha- Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto number one

Angela Nikodinov-Clare de Lune

Plushenko- Pictures of an exhibition

Berezhaya and Sikheridlidze- Bruce Springsteen's Thunder Road

Ina and Zimmerman - Born to Run

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Eeyora - Are you speaking about the particular performances or are these the music pieces that you want to hear, that is, Music you want to hear more of?

Joe

sk8addict said:

I sent Jen Don the movie & the music. Wouldn't she be a great golden bond girl!

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Brain exploding again!

Like Lucinda Ruh's or the paint? I heard that paint cased Shirley Eaton some permeant damage to her skin. Anyway I think the below would be adequate.

Not to mention, that is a great Biellmann.

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=190762&postcount=43

More discussion in this thread about the appropriateness of musical selection. This specific entry links to my academic paper on music & figure skating.

Joesitz said:

Easy music to skate to, imo, would be: Carmen, Don Q., Malaguena, and so many others that you hear every year. Maybe, this is the way figure skating should be.

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While I agree with your comment about figure skaters not being musical, I completely disagree with this remark. How exactly does skating to the same 5-6 songs, let alone some of the most middlebrow examples of classical, encourage an interest in music?

At this point, skating is about 50-60 years behind the curve in terms of musical usage -- it's time to start closing the gap.

Personally speaking, I would like to see the following:

- Movement away from the classical oeuvre, ie. the examples above. Who ever said something about banning Carmen, I am *so* with you!

- Increased use of contemporary music, though not neccessarily derived from pop or movie soundtracks. Look to modern composers, underground/independent musicians, etc.

- Music education. I believe that those uneducated about music will perpetuate the same stodgy ideas about what qualifies as "good" music for the sport. If skaters have to train their bodies to excel, they should also learn about music. People in dance and theatre disciplines must take vocal or instrument lessons, there should be something similar in figure skating.

Eeyora said:

Michelle- Rhapsody on a Theme of Pagannini, Samson et Delilah, Warsaw Concerto

Sasha- Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto number one

Angela Nikodinov-Clare de Lune

Plushenko- Pictures of an exhibition

Berezhaya and Sikheridlidze- Bruce Springsteen's Thunder Road

Ina and Zimmerman - Born to Run

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That's a coincidence, I've always wanted to see two skaters skate to Born to Run!

theoreticalgirl said:

While I agree with your comment about figure skaters not being musical, I completely disagree with this remark. How exactly does skating to the same 5-6 songs, let alone some of the most middlebrow examples of classical, encourage an interest in music?

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:agree: ...or in new fans to Figure Skating?

I agree with every word of the post I quoted - just left the rest out. I personally think that pop or whatever is fine, music is a universal expression and language. If judges let bias be a part of their points awarded they should be sent packing, be that as unrealistic as it may, that is my feeling. But I do see some of the reasons there are limits, yet can't agree with all of them.

I really think the Judging system is to blame for the lack of diversity, if you use something new you will be deducted. No wonder people have their doubts about the integrity of the sport. Not to mention what happened 4 years ago to just confirm the questionability in the minds of the "interested but unsure if.." Not fair or a realistic view, yet the "greater pubic" are very easily swayed in judgment.

One thing I would hate to do is steer the older and still loving the sport crowd away. I love sitting next to "Grandma" and they always love the fact there is "someone my age" (not just 5-16 and 45 - 80) in the crowd. And they are aware there are others, but always comment about the lack of this age group "these days." I would hope the music doesn't drive them away, but I fear that has something to do with this too.

I will also mention AGAIN (please someone important hear this) BETTER SOUND SYSTEMS!!!!!! I know for a fact (friends in the home and public theater audio specialist) this is possible regardless of the ice. They always point out how sound that is used for sporting events is centralized. Granted this would mean a very expensive change to the set up in arenas, but most of that is PA placement, more mounting and wire. The rest is frequency modulation during music. Still would not be perfect (they say "you have to start with the right equipment, and there is only so much you could do) but there is room for improvement there as well.

I know I am a dreamer.:boohoo:

I have been trying to load you link for around 4 minutes now and am really existed to read it. Well now it didn't load:no: , could you PM it to me? Please. Or retry the link?????