Lysacek to take over as leader of U.S mens skating over Weir fully, for good next yr.

slutskayafan21 · May 21, 2006

Lysacek to take over as leader of U.S mens skating over Weir fully, for good next yr.

Although I am in no way a fan of Evan Lysacek, and genuinely find him grossly overrated I do think the tides have turned as far as leadership of mens skating in the U.S. Evan will be the new U.S champion this coming year and take over for good as the leader of U.S mens skating from Weir. It wont matter if Weir has a quad by next year, Lysacek probably will too probably. The U.S will want to promote the skater they believe has the better chance of fighting for a medal at Worlds, even if it is only the bronze medal. With their relative performances in the last couple years in big events, that is clearly Lysacek, and he will start to get the full backing of the USFSA, if he is not already. I would be surprised if Weir not only ever won a World medal(I doubt he will ever do this)but was ever even the U.S Champion again.

debdelilah · May 21, 2006

I don't know what will happen--but what spurs this sudden post in the middle of the offseason? We won't really know until they start their new programs and we see what's what for next year.

Johnny can do quads, and he can do 4-3-2 combinations--in practice, that's the unfortunate thing. Sometimes the tension gets to him and sometimes it helps him--the need to prove himself helped him when he won Nationals in 2004. Evan seems to like being the comeback kid too, because while he kept pulling ahead of Johnny in the long program this season, Johnny was always ahead after the short program.

I think it's far too early to decide Evan will always be on top, or that Johnny will never will a world medal. I'm expecting to be surprised next season, no matter what happens, because neither of them is looking at skating as "same old, same old".

Mathman · May 21, 2006

Well, IMHO it is entirely up to the skaters. The question of who USFS decides to throw their support to, I don't think that will play a role until after Nationals.

Quad, quad, quad. Whoever gets it first and most dependably will leave the other in the dust, IMO.

With a reliable quad, either could surpass Buttle (unless he gets a quad, too!) Then the question becomes, can either Weir or Lysacek really match up to Lambiel and Joubert?

MM

slutskayafan21 · May 21, 2006

I would agree to the extent if Weir somehow got a very reliable quad, and Lysacek did not, the USFSA would then allow Weir to remain the U.S Champion, any other scenario I think you will seee Lysacek getting the full support of the USFSA, monopolize the U.S title and it will only grow as the quadrennial goes along.

Mathman · May 21, 2006

I guess I am still naive about how figure skating contests are decided.

Over the years, by and large, it does seem to me that the competitors who skate the best are usually rewarded with the best marks. (I hate to admit this, because nothing is more fun than a good judging scandal, but what can I say?)

I really don't think it is a question of USFS "allowing" Weir to do anything. I think it's up to Johnny.

MM

slutskayafan21 · May 21, 2006

I dont sense the momentum of the judging community going into Johnny's favor right now, but I certainly sense it going in Evan's favor. Johnny's scores at the Worlds, after the Olympics certainly suggested the tide going away from him and towards some of his competitors. Remember a pretty clean short from Johnny at Worlds scored only a 73, he had a few minor wobbly elements, but that is still a lower than expected score I am pretty sure, the raw Oda with the same jumps managed a 78, he was perfect, but still a shocking comparision. Somebody like Joubert outscored Johnny in PCS in every single program at Worlds, and his PCS were not up with people like Buttle and Lambiel like they were in Turin. At the Olympics Johnny had an 80 in the short, I know scoring was much higher at the Olympics then Worlds, but still it is noticeable that judging momentum is not going in his favor right now.

Mathman · May 21, 2006

That's an interesting observation and a good point. I can't wait to see how it all works out next year.

debdelilah · May 21, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
I would agree to the extent if Weir somehow got a very reliable quad, and Lysacek did not, the USFSA would then allow Weir to remain the U.S Champion, any other scenario I think you will seee Lysacek getting the full support of the USFSA, monopolize the U.S title and it will only grow as the quadrennial goes along.

But there are many possible scenarios. You're talking about the USFSA giving support based on who they think will win; but you're also talking about how good their programs are, which involves more than just the quad.

Evan got bronze at 2005 Worlds; Johnny came in fourth. Evan got fourth place at the Olympics; Johnny got fifth. Johnny is not exactly bombing out in international competition--he's not placing 15th or 20th. He's up there in the rankings, even though what he's bringing to these competitions is less than his best.

I think the USFSA would love to see Johnny manage to skate his best when it counts most, because that would really be amazing. Can you imagine him putting that 4-3-2 in a competition program? If he could do that, and still maintain his artistry, a World medal would be well within reach.

76olympics · May 21, 2006

Gosh, I thought there had been an announcement from the thread title! :rofl:

I was looking for a link to the press release!

Seriously, I think anything can happen, We have another long four years ahead of us before Vancouver.

blackrose050 · May 21, 2006

76olympics said:
Seriously, I think anything can happen, We have another long four years ahead of us before Vancouver.

ITA. Both are excellent skaters. Maybe some other U.S. guy will step up to the plate and give them BOTH some competition. Who knows? Four years is a long time!

slutskayafan21 · May 21, 2006

As much as I hate to say it 4 years is not really that long it seems. The Olympics seems like just ended a moment ago and it was 3 months ago, 1/16th the amount of time until the next Winter Olympics are over. :rofl:

debdelilah · May 21, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
At the Olympics Johnny had an 80 in the short, I know scoring was much higher at the Olympics then Worlds, but still it is noticeable that judging momentum is not going in his favor right now.

Worlds was not a typical competition for Johnny, though. He can skate better when he feels better, physically and emotionally, than he did at Worlds.

I do think he should have got more credit for his choreography in the SP.

JonnyCoop · May 21, 2006

Well, recent history is not on Johnny's side, if we were to use that as an indicator. It seems like for about the last 15 years, the US Men's champion has 2 or 3 good seasons, then fades into the background. Eldredge, who actually was able to ride this out, won in 90 and 91, had 3 rocky seasons (not even making the podium half the time) before coming back in 95; Scott Davis won in 93 and 94 and then faded back; Michael Weiss had a couple of good seasons, then faded back; same with Goebel. I'm not saying Johnny's gonna fade back in the pack and be an also-ran at Nationals by the time 2010 comes around, but patterns of recent history certainly aren't in his favor.

debdelilah · May 21, 2006

Well, we'll just take things one year at a time as usual.

Next season, I can see both Evan and Johnny continuing to get stronger. I don't think either one of them has peaked.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 21, 2006

for me, I see them at evensteven. Both skaters are works in progress.

Johnny has a decided style but not complete and we have to wait to see if he can excite us in an international competition. I don't see him as being versatile.

Evan is definitely versatile or at least trying to be. However, his style has not yet materialized, imo. I admire his inner strength to come from behind. He may be a better competitor. Not necessarily a better skater.

Joe

Joe

debdelilah · May 21, 2006

Joesitz said:
Johnny has a decided style but not complete and we have to wait to see if he can excite us in an international competition. I don't see him as being versatile.
Joe

If he can be versatile, this coming season should show it. He said he's going to be experimenting with a new style in his long program. I wonder!

I'm looking forward to seeing them compete next season.

Jaana · May 22, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
...... I do think the tides have turned as far as leadership of mens skating in the U.S. Evan will be the new U.S champion this coming year and take over for good as the leader of U.S mens skating from Weir.

I don´t think that their placements in US Nationals matters one bit, as long as they are on places one and two. Lysacek won two World bronze medals although he was not the US champion (= not being promoted?), and he definetely has won over the international judges´ attention towards his skating. What matters the most, is how these two skate and succeed in international competitions. Weir´s dropping from short programme 2nd place into 5th at the Olympics, did not leave a positive impression. Neither did it at Worlds, where he was 5th after short programme and 7th in final results.

Lysacek has gotten two bronze medals at Worlds and was also better than Weir in the Olympics. Lysacek needs to become more consistent in short programme. If he would be able to skate a faultless short programme and freeskate (with a quad) at Worlds, WOW, he would challenge Lambiel and Joubert (and so would Weir). As a competitor Lysacek seems mentally stronger than Weir, Weir is better in short programme though. What should be done to make Weir better at freeskate? More training, more concentration, a stronger and harsher coach?

I really like these skaters equally, they both have a great skating style of their own, different, but equally pleasing to my eye. I wish them both lots of good luck for next season.

hockeyfan228 · May 22, 2006

The difference in Weir's SP scores between Torino and Calgary was 6.47. Of that, 4.14, or about 2/3, was in the technical score. 2.33 was in PCS. Although he brought up the level of his CSSp from 1 to 2 in Calgary, he lost more than GOE when he erred on his final spin: the level dropped from 3 to 1, which was itself worth a full point, before negative GOE. His base was higher in Torino by 1.4, but what he gained over base was significantly more than in Calgary. In both Calgary and Torino, he lost -.86 on the 3F, but in Torino, he gained twice the GOE (1.57 vs. 71 for the 3A, 1 vs. .57 for the 3Lz/3T combination) for his jumps, and upped GOE on his other elements.

While I would have expected his PCS to be lower in Calgary -- his performance seemed more invested in Torino -- what is critical, I think, is that in the quali round, Lysacek's PCS were slightly higher than Weir's, and in the SP, where Lysacek placed three places behind Weir, his PCS were only .43 lower.

Tonichelle · May 22, 2006

I dunno... Johnny is always able to get a lot done at nationals... it will be interesting this season...

I think Evan has some stuff to work out after the last two competitions... that stupid SP needs to be looked at. Why the heck is he having so much trouble now? And the fact that it was an old program... ???? That shouldn't have happened. Sick or not, I don't know...

It would be great to have Evan win the darn thing, but I don't think Johnny's ready to give up the national title... he really fights for that one, where as he doesn't seem to always fight for Worlds... for whatever reason.

hockeyfan228 · May 22, 2006

Also, Lysacek was sick as a dog for his SP in Torino. I'm not surprised that the spectre of that skate would affect him in Calgary, particularly since he's been having trouble with the 3A. Lysacek did a brilliant SP in Moscow, which put him within striking distance of the podium there.

Weir has cleaner jump technique than Lysacek. However, Weir has a sway back, and what he gains in maintaining his health by jumping correctly, he could lose to back problems, which surfaced in Calgary. Hopefully, these problems Calgary were due to overwork over the course of the season, although it is a vulnerability.

Lysacek hasn't stopped for the two years in which he was diagnosed with a stress fracture in his hip. This is a potential issue over the next four years for him.

Lysacek to take over as leader of U.S mens skating over Weir fully, for good next yr.

slutskayafan21

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debdelilah

Mathman

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