Biggest Judging errors in the past

slutskayafan21 said:

94 Olympics Urmanov vs Stojko-Urmanov had a very good performance, but it was not the championship performance of the evening cleary for me. That was Stojko's. Urmanov had 7 clean triples, and 2 triple axels, but no triple-triples.
Stojko had 7 triples, 2 triple axels as well, and a triple axel-triple toe. Stojko's spins were far better. His footwork was a bit more intricate. He was clearly faster and had the better ice coverage. They had different style, they were similarly good in musical interpretation, and choreographic quality I felt. Urmanov has the better line and extension, but Stojko skated with more command and conviction of the two that night. Stojko should have been the Olympic Champion, and Urmanov the Olympic silver medalist.

98 Olympics dance event-There was clearly a block of 5 judges-Poland, Russia, Itally, Czech Republic, and the Ukraine which dictated the results. Bourne and Kraatz were robbed of atleast a bronze medal by this beyond any doubt. Punsalen/Swallow of the U.S were robbed of a higher finish then 7th. Anissina
/Peizerat were pushed onto the podium by this, Lobacheva/Averbuhk were pushed into the top 5, Fusar-Poli/Margalio were pushed up to 6th over a team like Punsalen/Swallow setting them up nicely for the next quadrennial, the Ukranians and Czechs were bumped up in the final placings. A truly shameful exhibition of pre-orchestrated resuls.

2002 Olympics pairs event-Do I really need to say anything?

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What is a championship performance? It is a performance that is better than everyone else's. Urmanov's qualified for this. Elvis popped the first triple axel into a single. Then he replaced the planned quad with a triple axel. He may have felt that he needed to land two triple axels to win. So he missed his biggest weapon, the quad. The quality/technique of Urmanov's jumps was much better, except for the triple flip which he landed VERY awkwardly. Elvis always lands forward on his jumps and his lack of lines and extension hurt him in the presentation marks. Urmanov's program was more traditional, and that helped him in a close competition. It was a close competiton but the right skater won. Elvis could have won by doing the jumps he had planned to do- he needed those high technical marks to win with a nontraditional program.

I won't even go through the long list you provided about the 1998 Olympics. IMO Anissina-Peizerat skated Three strong programs and placed ahead of B&K. I remember that Tracy Wilson said B&K's OD was not difficult enough, or something to that effect. IIRC B&K did place ahead of A&P in the FD.

In 2002 the original results (B&S won) were correct. Only politics gave the double gold medal to S&P. I don't expect you to agree with me on this, since your Canadian bias is evident.

Vash

Vash01 said:

What is a championship performance? It is a performance that is better than everyone else's. Urmanov's qualified for this. Elvis popped the first triple axel into a single. Then he replaced the planned quad with a triple axel. He may have felt that he needed to land two triple axels to win. So he missed his biggest weapon, the quad. The quality/technique of Urmanov's jumps was much better, except for the triple flip which he landed VERY awkwardly. Elvis always lands forward on his jumps and his lack of lines and extension hurt him in the presentation marks. Urmanov's program was more traditional, and that helped him in a close competition. It was a close competiton but the right skater won. Elvis could have won by doing the jumps he had planned to do- he needed those high technical marks to win with a nontraditional program.

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Well that is your opinion. I did not feel Urmanov's performance was "better then everyone else's" as you assert. If you really feel that fine, but I never felt that Urmanov's performance was better then everyone else's when in fact I felt Stojko's was superior. Yes he was missing the quad, but he had the triple-
triple Urmanov did not have, I certainly did not find Urmanov's jump quality any better, and his spin quality, speed, and conviction that he skated with I found Stojko to be clearly ahead on this night.

I won't even go through the long list you provided about the 1998 Olympics. IMO Anissina-Peizerat skated Three strong programs and placed ahead of B&K. I remember that Tracy Wilson said B&K's OD was not difficult enough, or something to that effect. IIRC B&K did place ahead of A&P in the FD.

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There was evidence of block judging by the judges from Italy, Russia, France, the Czech Republic, and the Ukraine judging in line with each throughout the entire event. In the compulsory dances those 5 all voted the same way for a number of couples, and were always apart from the other 4. Then in the original and free dance the Ukraine judged along with the mainstream 4. I dont have the ordinals of that event, but if I did they would easily show the bloc judging that occured. Bourne/Kraatz certainly were put 5th in the first dance only due to this bloc, and since they came 4th in the other compulsory and original dance, and 3rd in the free dance, it is certain they would have won atleast the bronze without that bloc-oriented 5th in the first dance. Quoting Tracy Wilson is interesting to say the least since she certainly did not agree with Bourne/Kraatz being off the podium, in fact criticized it openly after the Olympics(of course you will probably dismiss that since she is a Canadian)

In 2002 the original results (B&S won) were correct. Only politics gave the double gold medal to S&P. I don't expect you to agree with me on this, since your Canadian bias is evident.

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That is a pretty smug thing to say when in fact there was a huge controversy over the decision, and commentators and experts from around the World were outraged with the decision. European commentators, writers, and fans, sided in a strong majority with Sale/Pelletier being robbed of the gold medal. I suppose Steven Cousins, Sally Stapleford, Rudi Cerne, Alexei Yagudin(
yes he very openly stated Sale/Pelletier should have won)are examples of people who strongly opposed the decision because of Canadian bias. I suppose those thousands of media mass around the press conferences from around the World are an example of only those with Canadian bias. In fact Americans were even more outraged with the decision then Canadians and supported the Canadians greatly in the fight for justice in this case. I would say just the opposite to what you snarkily stated, your own Russian bias is the more evident thing here, and is evident in almost all of your posts so your ridiculous statement here is hardly a surprise, from you it is to be expected when involving a Russian skater(s).

Oh these B&S v. S&P arguments! Both excellent Pairs teams and in a contest as hot as this was, one had to win.

It came down to the team with the cleanest skate, imo. I wish fans would argue this point rather than which team was more graceful. I have not seen this competition since those days of yore, so I do not know if it had been CoP, which team would have won.

Joe

Neither. If it'd been under C.O.P, Shen/Zhao would've won!

Joesitz said:

Oh these B&S v. S&P arguments! Both excellent Pairs teams and in a contest as hot as this was, one had to win.

It came down to the team with the cleanest skate, imo. I wish fans would argue this point rather than which team was more graceful. I have not seen this competition since those days of yore, so I do not know if it had been CoP, which team would have won.

Joe

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Interestingly though i watched the programs recently and thought both paris would have done great programs under CoP - they both had beautiful and different entrances into their death sprials - the kind of thing that garners points under CoP (though i'll not get into my usual criticisms of Elena's position in the Death spiral!).

Ant

evenstar said:

Neither. If it'd been under C.O.P, Shen/Zhao would've won!

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The fall on the fully rotated throw quad sal would have probably given them a good boost in terms of points!

Ant

About Pairs in SLC 2002 - I'd say we can state a judging error if a judge admits having judged not what she should but what she was forced to. And about the things which happened ON the ice - there are cases (like this) where I am glad that at least theoretically CoP allows tied results.

Dance in Lillehammer 1994. Either G&P AND T&D should have deductions for wrong elements resp. too long separation or neither of them. So in the end either T&D (without deductions) or U&Z (with deductions for G&P and T&D) should have won imho. The judges were not using the same criteria for all couples it seems. Probably this happened and still happens very often but in this case very famous former pro athletes were involved, so the details were outfolded much more than usual.

In regards to 1998 dance, I think B&K deserved to be off the podium, with or without bloc juding to put them there. They had an error in one CD, and they had a very easy and boring OD. I have a tape of 98 Worlds, and Susie Wynne just blasts their OD. Riverdance was good, but some of the flashier aspects of the program were also a bit easy (ie bouncing up and down in one place). Plus, A&P had a beautiful FD, and a wonderfully choreographed OD. (Even with the bauble, it was better than B&K.) Tracy Wilson is a wonderful commentator, but not when it comes to Canadian dancers and their nearest competitors. At SC one year, D&L had a fall, and still managed to vault ahead of C&S. Wilson thought it was deserved. If it had been another team vaulting ahead of a Canadian pair, I'm sure Wilson would have been screaming bad judging.

I still scratch my head over dance in 2001. I can't believe FP&M won, and that D&V finished down in 5th.

I also disagreed with pairs in 1994. G&G won with a couple of small errors over a clean M&D. Nobody in the media was crying foul, because both teams were Russian. If M&K had been North American, the 2002 scandal would have happened eight years earlier.

I often disagreed with G&P winning dance events. They just weren't that much better than everyone else, and they sometimes made mistakes.

I don't think any of the modern controversies compares to some of the stuff that went on in the past.

Before 1908 the practice was for the host country to supply all the judges for the World Championship. I believe it was at the 1901 championships in Stockholm where the Russian champion came to town, took one look at the panel of Swedish judges, and turned around and went back home without skating. (Ulrich Salchow of Sweden won.)

In 1906, the world championship was in Munich, home town of Salchow's biggest rival, Gilbert Fuchs. Salchow refused to participate, knowing he didn't have a chance. (Sure enough, Fuchs won.)

At the 1908 Olympic Games (the first time figure skating was included), although the games were in London, the judging panel was heavily pro-Salchow and Fuchs refused to skate. (Salchow won.)

Salchow went on to become the president of the ISU, where he served for many years.

Fuchs, who also competed in gymnastics, weightlifting and "stone put" (a version of shot put poplular in Scotland), went on to have a career in forestry. He wrote a PhD thesis on the economic viability of the post-World War I European foresty industry, and was a specialist on various insects that harm trees.

(Trees rock!)

Yikes, that is pretty bad...but at the same time they refused to skate. I'm sure there would have been an investigation, like what happened in 2002, if one skater did amazing and the other was mediocore, but the mediocore skater still got placed higher by the hometown judges.

Re:

Joesitz said:

Oh these B&S v. S&P arguments! Both excellent Pairs teams and in a contest as hot as this was, one had to win.

It came down to the team with the cleanest skate, imo. I wish fans would argue this point rather than which team was more graceful. I have not seen this competition since those days of yore, so I do not know if it had been CoP, which team would have won.

Joe

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This is a powerful argument, Joe, but it doesn't sound quite convincing when it comes from you. You often write about your appreciation for grace, line, and carriage in skaters. I would think you would want the competition scores to reflect these attributes.

Zuranthium said:

Yikes, that is pretty bad...but at the same time they refused to skate. I'm sure there would have been an investigation, like what happened in 2002, if one skater did amazing and the other was mediocore, but the mediocore skater still got placed higher by the hometown judges.

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No, I don't think so. In those days I think it was well accepted that the judges gave out medals to whoever they wanted to, for politcal reasons. Since there wasn't much going on in the sport technically, it was just whoever you liked the best. Also, there was no world-wide television audience. All anyone knew was the newspaper report the next day of who won.

Plus, who is going to investigate? Even now, anyone who raises questions about judging is thrown out of the ISU.

The 1908 Olympics was a dozy. In the marathon, the first runner (an Italian) to enter the stadium collapsed before the finish line. So the officials picked him up and carried him across, ahead of the American runner-up.

About politics, there was a lot of fussing about flags. Finland had to compete under the Russian flag, and Ireland had to compete for England, so a lot of Finnish and Irish athletes withdrew in protest.

The British organizers of the games refused to display the American flag above the stadium with all the other flags, so when it came time to march before the King, the U.S. flag bearer refused to dip the flag, as was the custom. (No report on whether he gave the king the finger.) This was the start of the famous policy -- changing stubbornness into a virtue -- under which to this day the colors of the U.S. don't dip!!!!

Or do I mean, they don't run?

In the 400 meter race the British officials disqualified the American winner for "interfering" with the British runner. After an argument, they decided to re-run the race. But the Americans refused to participate, so the British guy ran a lap around the track all by himself and won the gold medal.

Then there are the outright boycotts. The U.S. wouldn't send a team to the Moscow Olympics beacuse the USSR invaded Afghanistan. Hey, don't they know that invading Afghanistan is our thing?

So the Russians didn't come to Los Angeles the next time because their feelings were hurt. They showed us!

I do, however, think Fumie was undermarked at Torino.

Mathman said:

Then there are the outright boycotts. The U.S. wouldn't send a team to the Moscow Olympics beacuse the USSR invaded Afghanistan. Hey, don't they know that invading Afghanistan is our thing?

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You should be called funnyman, and sometimes I think you are a lady, you are too likable.

Mathman said:

I do, however, think Fumie was undermarked at Torino.

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And you said you might be the least educated poster, pa shaw. This is IMO!

krenseby said:

This is a powerful argument, Joe, but it doesn't sound quite convincing when it comes from you. You often write about your appreciation for grace, line, and carriage in skaters. I would think you would want the competition scores to reflect these attributes.

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Nothing wrong with grace, line and carriage in skaters. I don't push the artistry because there is so little of it in figure skating. Both these teams were exceptional in that area. I'm actually satisfied with the tie.

Joe

Mathman - What book are you reading to get all this info? Verrrrrryinteresting.

It seem early figure skating was not for ladies. A true macho sport. No skirts and bugle beads allowed.

Joe

That post took me EVERYWHERE. Lol, Mathman.

A big long historical lesson and then suddenly "Fumie was undermarked'. Hahaha.

I thought Fumie definitely should have won the silver at the last Olympics, bronze could have gone to either Irina or Sasha, both were overscored in the long, Sasha even moreso.

In the 2002 Olympics Fumie was also underscored in both short and long, she should have been 4th or 5th in the short, where she was 7th, and atleast 4th in the long. I would have had her 4th overall ahead of Cohen personaly.

1988

I'd like to say that I disagreed with Katarina Witt winning the 1988 Olympics. Her free skate was very slowly skated and uninspiring. Midori Ito rocked the house with an 8 triple program, including a triple/triple. Yes, artistic marks were given more weight, but did Katarina's artistry outweigh Midori's technical on that night? By that much? If Ito had been marked second in the FS, Liz Manley (as the FS winner) would have had enough to win the gold.

Katarina was a guest during the 2006 series Olympic Ice, and she was asked to commentate to a replay of her Calgary FS. She herself commented that she wondered why she looksd so slow and that she wasn't really doing anything, so it was definitely not her best performance. (I guess she hadn't seen it before, because she seemed quite surprised at how bad she looked)!

Also, I thought Brian Orser shoud have won 1998 Worlds. Boitano missed both triple axels, yet still finished second in FS ahead of Kurt Browning's entertaining and wow program that included the first quad ever. If Kurt had come 2nd in the FS, Orser would have won gold.

slutskayafan21 said:

I thought Fumie definitely should have won the silver at the last Olympics, bronze could have gone to either Irina or Sasha, both were overscored in the long, Sasha even moreso.

In the 2002 Olympics Fumie was also underscored in both short and long, she should have been 4th or 5th in the short, where she was 7th, and atleast 4th in the long. I would have had her 4th overall ahead of Cohen personaly.

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HAHAHAHAHA. That's a great one. You do realize that Fumie didn't nearly have the levels in spins and spirals and footwork to compete with Sasha much less Irina? And I like Fumie - she just doesn't have all the difficulty the other girls do. Look at the protocol (that's what I love about CoP - wuzrobbing can be kicked in the butt by looking at at the TES in cases like this that aren't subjective). Thus she often gets shafted in the TES, and rightly so. Fumie even mentioned this at one point re: Torino. At the Olys IMO I would have put her ahead of Irina but not Sasha. She at least doesn't look like a mess out there on the ice like Irina does a lot of the time - Fumie's got nice carriage, though she seems kinda slow to me. Sasha's level 4s with +GoE and her PCS saved her butt, rightly so!

Sasha was undermarked in the SP and LP at 2002 Olympics, especially by the German judge who gave her 5.5/5.5 for her LP. The 5.5 I can kinda see in technical as I didn't see much of a footwork sequence, and the crash on the 3/3, but in presentation?! But I can understand why. She was generally an unknown. Wait your turn. Your reputation helps you just as much as your skate does a lot in 6.0 which is why I'm glad it's gone! I don't recall watching Fumie's SLC performances but I definitely think Kwan was overmarked, Hughes was a bit but they kinda had to as she was the only one to bring it, and Irina was overmarked, Sasha undermarked. I need to go see Fumie's performance, but I might agree with you that she was undermarked--she seemed to get shafted a lot under 6.0.

I hope I made some sense. I'm sleepy.

Regarding Katarina, I remember watching her Carmen for the first time a few years ago and going, "Uhh, that was it? That's the spectacular Carmen?" Course, I did that with Bolero a long time ago, but now I can appreciate it and T&D. Katarina and Carmen--not so much.