Biggest Judging errors in the past

Mathman · Jun 8, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
Fair enough, but I think it is wrong to assume any +GOE gain on jumps for Sasha that she lost on. Only 1 of her 3 jumps in the short had +GOE, and only 1 of 4 in the long did. Her triple lutz usually has slight -GOE even when she does it since it is flutzed. Her triple-triple sequence rarely does either. Even Irina was not getting much at all +GOE on her jumps, and she is clearly a better jumper then Sasha, although her jumps that night were sluggish for her standards, even the ones she landed I Mean.

I did not assume any + GOEs.

She got -3.00 GOE on her Lutz, plus -1.00 for the fall; -2.86 on her flip, and -1.14 on her sequence.

Putting all these to 0 gives her a net gain of 8.00 points.

Again, I am not trying to guess whether Sasha might have got higher or lower scores if she had skated better or worse. I am trying to say that IMO she was rewarded correctly for what she did well, and punished appropriately for her mistakes.

hockeyfan228 · Jun 8, 2006

As an addendum to Mathman's judging post, when Sonja Henie was dominating, there were a large number of Norwegian judges on the panels.

slutskayafan21 · Jun 8, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
As an addendum to Mathman's judging post, when Sonja Henie was dominating, there were a large number of Norwegian judges on the panels.

At the 1927 Worlds she was facing an Austrian rival who had won the last 5 Worlds and the last Olympics, and the Australian and German judges both voted for Herma Szabo Planck her big rival who was coming in having won all these titles, and all 3 Norwegian voted for Henie giving her the Championship. I believe they only allowed 1 judge per panel after that year though, although there was still alot of cheating, and Henie's father buying votes and trying to intimidate, he once chased a judge who didnt vote for his daughter down the street. Before one feels Herma was obviously screwed though, recall she is Austrian and the Austrians and Germans were famous for working together as well. So all 5 judges that year were probably corrupt and voted for one or the other based on the corruption, just 2 in Herma's corner, 3 in Sonie's. Who knows who really should have won Worlds that year. :biggrin:

evenstar · Jun 8, 2006

A little off the current topic, but Michelle Kwan in Salt Lake 2002 Short Program! I just watched the video again, and her "triple" flip was almost a half-turn short! Isn't there a deduction for doing a cheat?? I remember Sarah Hughes was nailed for her cheated jumps in 2003. I think the short program should've been:

1. Sasha Cohen 0.5
2.Irina Slutskaya 1.0
3. Michelle Kwan 1.5
4.Maria Butryskaya 2.0
5. Sarah Hughes 2.5

And the judging for the long was a joke as well. IMO it should've been:

1. Sarah Hughes 1.0
2. Michelle Kwan 2.0
3. Sasha Cohen 3.0
4. Irina Slutskaya 4.0
5. Maria Butryskaya 5.0

And the end result would have been (IMO):

1. Sarah Hughes 3.5
2. Michelle Kwan 3.5
3. Sasha Cohen 3.5
4. Irina Slutskaya 5.0
5.Maria Butryskaya 7.0

Tada! :rock:

Mathman · Jun 8, 2006

Tada!

slutskayafan21 · Jun 8, 2006

I had SLC womens like this:

Short program:

1)Slutskaya
2)Kwan
3)Cohen
4)Butyrskaya
5)Suguri
6)Sebeysten
7)Hughes

Long program:

1)Hughes
2)Kwan
3)Slutskaya
4)Suguri
5)Cohen
6)Robinson
7)somebody other then Butyrskaya or Sebeysten although did not see any others

Overall:

Gold-Kwan
Silver-Slutskaya
Bronze-Hughes
4th-Suguri
5th-Cohen

Sorry I did not find Hughes's short program that good at all. Atleast half of her elements were shaky. Her ordinals ranged from 4th to 10th. The 10th was probably a political vote, but only 2 judges had her 4th. She was lucky to be that high in the short and have a chance to win at all.

I could be wrong but I believed at the time Slutskaya only beat Kwan in the long since they wanted to make sure Hughes won the overall gold with her wonderful free skate, after the way Kwan and Slutskaya skated. Well if Hughes did not get a bit lucky to be as high as 4th in the short program, that scenario would never have come into play anyway.

hockeyfan228 · Jun 9, 2006

evenstar said:
A little off the current topic, but Michelle Kwan in Salt Lake 2002 Short Program! I just watched the video again, and her "triple" flip was almost a half-turn short! Isn't there a deduction for doing a cheat??

That was the problem with the flip that was controversial at the time. I thought it was a double-foot -- also a required deduction -- but it was underrotation, which in the SP, was supposed to be deducted. Thank you, evenstar!

antmanb · Jun 9, 2006

Lanie said:
Nope! I like a bunch of skaters (I could make a really long list!) but I've got my overwhelming faves. With Sasha I'm in good company with other fans. The Kerrs... no one I know likes them, they're hated by all my friends. Sniffle.

You're not alone on liking the Kerrs - i love their skating, and am lucky enough to have them train at the rink where i skate for part of the year!!

Ant

antmanb · Jun 9, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
Slutskaya regularly wobbles from edge to edge at the beginning of her Biellman spiral, and does not attain a deep edge until she's in full, upright position.

But kwanford Wife was talking about Irina's traditional spiral not her biellmann spiral...admitedly we've not seen her traditional spiral since CoP came in but the edges on it used to be a thing of beauty. I agree that the Biellmann Spiral is a trully ugly position and she does regularly wobble all over the show when executing it.

Ant

hockeyfan228 · Jun 9, 2006

antmanb said:
But kwanford Wife was talking about Irina's traditional spiral not her biellmann spiral...admitedly we've not seen her traditional spiral since CoP came in but the edges on it used to be a thing of beauty. I agree that the Biellmann Spiral is a trully ugly position and she does regularly wobble all over the show when executing it.

Ant

When she did her traditional spiral, her posture was weak, indicating a lack of strength in her back, and her extension and position were poor. She was able to attain deep edges in an inferior position. It makes sense that she would emphasize her strengths on poor elements -- even on her jumps, she trades off height for flowout much of the time -- but it doesn't make it good technique.

slutskayafan21 · Jun 9, 2006

hockeyfan228, even if some of your points are valid please stop dissecting Irina's skating in such an unflattering way, I dont know how much longer I can bear to read you doing it! :laugh:

Kwanford Wife · Jun 9, 2006

SusanBeth said:
Irina has power based on her body type and make up. Every skater has his/her strengths. Why shouldn't Sasha's count for her? Irina is certainly getting points for edges and power even if she's sloppy in her positions. I have said it before, but a sloppy position done powerfully is just powerfully sloppy. There's no reason Irina couldn't improve her lines, just as Sasha needs to improve her skills.

I am suddenly having a Michelle appreciation moment.

Kwanford Wife · Jun 9, 2006

antmanb said:
But kwanford Wife was talking about Irina's traditional spiral not her biellmann spiral...admitedly we've not seen her traditional spiral since CoP came in but the edges on it used to be a thing of beauty. I agree that the Biellmann Spiral is a trully ugly position and she does regularly wobble all over the show when executing it.

Ant

Absolutely... I NEVER appreciated Irina's spiral until I saw a close up of that edge she acheives... blew me away...

The Biellman spiral is the ugliest thing on skates... I am so glad that an adjustment has been made... it made last season difficult to watch.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 9, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
As an addendum to Mathman's judging post, when Sonja Henie was dominating, there were a large number of Norwegian judges on the panels.

Where did you get this information?

Henie won 1928 Olys in Switzerland
Henie won 1932 Olys in New York State
Henie won 1936 Olys in Germany.

Are Norwegian judges all over the place?

Joe

slutskayafan21 · Jun 9, 2006

Actually like I said I am pretty sure the 1927 Worlds, Henie's very first World title, where she won a controversial decision over the great Herma-Planck-Szabo by winning a 3-2 split vote with all 3 judges from Norway voting for her; a rule was passed to not allow more then 1 judge per country.

Skate Sandee · Jun 9, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
Actually like I said I am pretty sure the 1927 Worlds, Henie's very first World title, where she won a controversial decision over the great Herma-Planck-Szabo by winning a 3-2 split vote with all 3 judges from Norway voting for her; a rule was passed to not allow more then 1 judge per country.

True - only 1 of her 10 titles was judged with multiple judges from Norway. She admittedly had other advantages because she was so young. Fashion propriety didn't "allow" for older female skaters to wear the short dresses that Henie wore. I would imagine the length of a dress alone would factor a great deal in one's performance to do technical elements.

Zuranthium · Jun 9, 2006

Mathman said:
I did not assume any + GOEs.

She got -3.00 GOE on her Lutz, plus -1.00 for the fall; -2.86 on her flip, and -1.14 on her sequence.

Putting all these to 0 gives her a net gain of 8.00 points.

Again, I am not trying to guess whether Sasha might have got higher or lower scores if she had skated better or worse. I am trying to say that IMO she was rewarded correctly for what she did well, and punished appropriately for her mistakes.

You have to add an additional 2.8 for the extra double jumps she does at the beginning of program in combination as well. Was one of the jumps in her sequence double footed, btw? I've never noticed anything wrong with those two jumps. Maybe I should watch the tape again.

dorispulaski · Jun 9, 2006

Blumberg and Seibert were badly underscored at the 1984 Olympics. They skated all their programs beautifully, but one judge decided singlehandedly and with no warning at all that their Scherazade music was not suitable for ice dance. No judge had complained about this all season, and suddenly at the Olympics they ended up off the podium because of it. Oddly, they placed 3rd at 1984 Worlds with a flawed free dance.

Tim Wood, 1968 Olympics. He lost 5/4, but one judge had the wrong score held up, something crazed like 0.6 instead of 6.0. The judge tried to change it, but it was not allowed.

FP/M should definitely not have won the CD at the 2006 Olympics, just for Maurizio's bad leg line alone.

Zuranthium · Jun 9, 2006

evenstar said:
A little off the current topic, but Michelle Kwan in Salt Lake 2002 Short Program! I just watched the video again, and her "triple" flip was almost a half-turn short! Isn't there a deduction for doing a cheat??

It wasn't underrotated at all. Her toepick slipped a bit on the entrance and caused the jump to have a forward lean but just look at her feet from start to finish -- she got the revolutions and landed it perfectly.

MKFSfan · Jun 9, 2006

Zuranthium said:
It wasn't underrotated at all. Her toepick slipped a bit on the entrance and caused the jump to have a forward lean but just look at her feet from start to finish -- she got the revolutions and landed it perfectly.

That's what I thought-slipped off the toe pick so she bassically vaulted herself in the air. Even the commentators pointed that out. If anything, she may have been just short of a recolution, but since 1/4 short is considered OK, I think her 3flip was OK. But I did think it was a bit short of height and then pitched her body in the air, I remember being very relieved that she saved the landing.

Biggest Judging errors in the past

Mathman

hockeyfan228

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

evenstar

Mathman

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

hockeyfan228

antmanb

antmanb

hockeyfan228

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

Kwanford Wife

Kwanford Wife

Joesitz (RIP)

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

Skate Sandee

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

MKFSfan

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