Lambiel's spins

Mathman · Jun 18, 2006

In 2004, Stephane Lambiel was the best spinner in the sport.

Two years later, in Torino, he was scored fourth in spins behind Lysacek (?), Plushenko (??) and Buttle.

Is Stephane another victim of the CoP?

To me, it looks like Stephane faced the same problem that Michelle did in adapting his skills to the requirements on the new system. He was caught between doing the same elegant and crowd-thrilling moves that he had made his mark with, versus putting in the necessary awkward contortions to get an extra level.

In Michelles' case, she hurt her back and was never the same.

In Stephane's, it seems like he is caught half-way between doing what he knows he can do best, and tying to play the game.

How do you think this will play out in the next couple of years?

slutskayafan21 · Jun 18, 2006

It is amazing he scores lower on spins then skaters like Lysacek and Plushenko whose spins are less then half as good as his. It just shows what happens when you are from Switzerland instead of Russia or the U.S. Imagine how low his spin scores would be if his spins were as mediocre as Plushenko's and Lysacek's are, probably 8 to 9 points lower per program if his spins diminished to their level. Thank goodness his spins are miles better than theirs, it forces the judges to have to give him scores almost as high on spins.

It just shows how good he is to have succeeded as well as he has under such a cheating system that would score his stunning spins below a couple of mediocre spinners. Buttle is also a very good spinner though.

Mathman · Jun 18, 2006

Slute-fan, judging prejudice aside, I would be interested to know if you think his spins are as good now as they were two years ago. Or do you think that he has lost a little, perhaps because of his ambivalence over the expectations of the new judging system.

slutskayafan21 · Jun 18, 2006

I dont think his spins are quite as good as 2 years ago, although still much better then Plushenko's and Lysacek's, and probably the best of the field still. I think he is trying to interpret what the code wants and is doing a poor job of it, and it is impacting the quality of his spins, and still not getting the levels. He should just do the spins he likes to do.

Mathman · Jun 18, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
He should just do the spins he likes to do.

ITA. The difference in point value between a "level 4 spin combination with change of position and change of foot" and a "level three spin combination with change of position and change of foot" is one-half point. (3.5 versus 3.0.)

shine · Jun 18, 2006

But the difference between him and Kwan is that Lambiel probably could have scored the highest in spins if he actually read and FOLLOWED the CoP rulebook, whereas Kwan might still have difficulty trying to create programs that fits in even if she tried to follow CoP.

Mathman · Jun 18, 2006

shine said:
But the difference between him and Kwan is that Lambiel probably could have scored the highest in spins if he actually read and FOLLOWED the CoP rulebook...

You know, I kind of sense that in Stephane. Not that he hasn't read the rule book, but that a part of him wants to say, screw the rule book.

euterpe · Jun 18, 2006

I wonder if the edge changes to up the value of his spins put too much strain on his already vulnerable knees. Now he is having back problems as well.

Mathman · Jun 18, 2006

euterpe said:
I wonder if the edge changes to up the value of his spins put too much strain on his already vulnerable knees. Now he is having back problems as well.

Yeah, these new bent-over spin positions might turn out to be, to back problems, what triple-triples are to hip degeneration.

slutskayafan21 · Jun 18, 2006

Interestingly though the level 4 spins he does do tend to get all +2s on GOE which nobody else gets. So he actually does the more valuable spins more spectacularly. If he make a concerted effort to include the most valuable spins, and he can easily do all level 4 spins if he made a concerted effort, he would probably win the spin scoring everytime. However he has said in interviews he does not like the spin rules or scoring, and does not want to conform to some of the regulations that go against his beliefs(eg-doing certain spins on an inside edge, which used to be considered wrong).

Ladskater · Jun 19, 2006

It's not that his spin quality is not there - it still is - he is obviously focusing more on his jumping skills to compete with Plushenko. Jumps, especially the quad still count for more than spins even under the new judging system. All the guys - including Jeff Buttle - who are excellent at moves in the field must bring their jumping skills up a notch or two to compete against the Plushenkos.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 19, 2006

I think the CoP demands certain embellishments in judging the elements. Right or Wrong, this is what the sport is now all about. In the case of Lambiel, he does not embellish his spins enough so the scores dip; the fact that Plushenko can not get all the way down in his sits spin is ok because there is an attempt. That is the CoP!

I praise Lambiel for saying, he will not change his spins to suit the CoP.

(Aside: European and Asian men can not do camel spins well. JMO.)

Joe

Fozzie Bear · Jun 19, 2006

(Aside: European and Asian men can not do camel spins well. JMO.)

True, except for Klimkin, I think.

The ISU needs to inlcude "high number of rotations" into their criteria for the spin levels. Continuing a spin beyond the usual eight revolutions is not easy. What Lambiel does so well is spin quickly and that is not being rewarded.

attyfan · Jun 19, 2006

Mathman said:
Yeah, these new bent-over spin positions might turn out to be, to back problems, what triple-triples are to hip degeneration.

This may explain Michelle's difficulty with the CoP, as well as Stephane's.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 19, 2006

Mathman said:
In 2004, Stephane Lambiel was the best spinner in the sport.

Do you have the details of the 2004 scores that made him the best? He did the same spins in 2005, and 2006 and without the knee problems he had in 2004?

Two years later, in Torino, he was scored fourth in spins behind Lysacek (?), Plushenko (??) and Buttle[/QUOTE}
Ahead of Johnny and Eman not to mention Joubert? Just in case you didn't notice, Stephane won the 2006 World Chamionship later that year.

s Stephane another victim of the CoP?

Click to expand...

Not as badly as Michelle. He does his thing, Love it or leave him alone.

To me, it looks like Stephane faced the same problem that Michelle did in adapting his skills to the requirements on the new system. He was caught between doing the same elegant and crowd-thrilling moves that he had made his mark with, versus putting in the necessary awkward contortions to get an extra level.

Click to expand...

The difference between Stephane and Michelle is that Stephane CHOSE not to do the contortions. Michelle just couldn't. She's injured. Silly comparison.

How do you think this will play out in the next couple of years?

Click to expand...

Stephane will continue his beautiful spinning whether or not it is CoP friendly. He is an artist. However, you can still hope he does poorly. It's ok.

Joe

antmanb · Jun 20, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
It is amazing he scores lower on spins then skaters like Lysacek and Plushenko whose spins are less then half as good as his. It just shows what happens when you are from Switzerland instead of Russia or the U.S. Imagine how low his spin scores would be if his spins were as mediocre as Plushenko's and Lysacek's are, probably 8 to 9 points lower per program if his spins diminished to their level. Thank goodness his spins are miles better than theirs, it forces the judges to have to give him scores almost as high on spins.

It just shows how good he is to have succeeded as well as he has under such a cheating system that would score his stunning spins below a couple of mediocre spinners. Buttle is also a very good spinner though.

You are the master of hyperbole but, honestly i didn't think that the difference between level 1 and level 4 spins was even as much as a couple of points let alone 8 or 9...anyone with a mroe mathematical brain (hint hint!!) care to work out the spread?

Ant

antmanb · Jun 20, 2006

Mathman said:
Slute-fan, judging prejudice aside, I would be interested to know if you think his spins are as good now as they were two years ago. Or do you think that he has lost a little, perhaps because of his ambivalence over the expectations of the new judging system.

Honestly i think he spins fast and he spins centered. When he has to do the hokey cokey and change edges left right and centre, he's still faster than the rest but compared to himself he is much slower.

There's also my personal bug bear with his camel - he rarely gets his free leg as high as his hip so he does have that "camel" look. To be, if i'm going to criticise pluschenko for his "half" sit (and i do criticise at nearly every opportunity

) then i have to criticise Lambiel as much for not hitting the correct position on his camel spin too.

But even if you trade lambiel's camel problems for Pluschenko's sit spin (and honestly i think Plushy's sit is worse than Lambiel's camel) Lambiel still spins light years ahead of Plushy.

I can't honestly say i've watched Lysacek very much to notice his spins. I think overall though Buttle CoP spins better than Lambiel because he really does keep all of his momentum through the edge changes and seems to be able to max out the levels without compromising the GOE, which Lambiel by his own admission can't hence doing lower level spins to keep the GOE up.

Ant

antmanb · Jun 20, 2006

Joesitz said:
Stephane will continue his beautiful spinning whether or not it is CoP friendly. He is an artist. However, you can still hope he does poorly. It's ok.

Joe

Jeez did Slutskayafan get a hold of Joe's passwrod and start posting :laugh:

Ant

Mathman · Jun 20, 2006

Mathman said:
In 2004, Stephane Lambiel was the best spinner in the sport.

Joesitz said:
Do you have the details of the 2004 scores that made him the best?

I am basing my opinion mostly on his performance in 2004 Worlds. I thought his spins were outstanding. If you disagree, who did you think was better?

2004 Worlds was scored under 6.0 judging, so neither of us can back up his opinion by appealing to the judging protocols. I thought he was the best. Apparently, by the angry tone of your post, you had a different opinion.

But if you thought someone else had better spins, can you name that person?

Mathman · Jun 20, 2006

Mathman said:
Two years later, in Torino, he was scored fourth in spins behind Lysacek (?), Plushenko (??) and Buttle

Joesitz said:
Ahead of Johnny and Eman not to mention Joubert? Just in case you didn't notice, Stephane won the 2006 World Chamionship later that year.

Joe, all of this information is readily available at the ISU site:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vcontent/p...74419-191637-38458-245614-custom-item,00.html

Here is a summary of the spin statistics (total scores for the four spin elements, LP only, GOEs included):

Olympics

Lysacek -- 13.72
Plushenko -- 13.31
Buttle -- 12.94
Lambiel -- 12.76
Weir -- 11.74
Joubert -- 10.94
Sandhu -- 10.39

2006 Worlds

Buttle -- 11.70
Lambiel -- 11.22
Lysacek -- 10.92
Sandhu -- 10.16
Joubert -- 9.58
Weir -- 8.99

I'm sorry if there is something in these statistics that annoys you, but there they are.

One interesting fact that jumps out is that the judges at Worlds were appreciably tougher than the judges at the Olympics. This perhaps is understandable. At the Olympics, the goal is to showcase the sport to the world-wide television audience. The World Championship, on the other hand, is more of an in-house affair for the ISU.

Anyway, every one of these skaters received lower marks at Worlds than at the Olympics, for essentially the same spins.

For example, both of Lysacek's opening spins were rated level four at the Olympics, but were downgraded to a level three and a level two at Worlds.

Lambiel's spins

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